BYU Adjusts Its Honor Code (the FreeBYU Complaint Worked)

[smac97]

Here:

Quote

Brigham Young University has “relaxed” a few of its Honor Code policies after a religious discrimination complaint was filed with the American Bar Association, according to a news release from the activist group “FreeBYU.”

FreeBYU urges the university to update their Honor Code “to allow LDS students to change their personal religious beliefs without being expelled from the University and evicted from their housing,” according to their mission statement.

FreeBYU filed its complaint with the ABA on October 21, 2015. The complaint claims the university’s law school “discriminates against non-LDS students, faculty, and staff who were formerly affiliated with the LDS Church.”

The changes are related to the university’s “ecclesiastical endorsement requirement,” in which each student must obtain and submit an endorsement from his or her current bishop in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, an ecclesiastical leader from another local congregation they belong to or a nondenominational chaplain at the university.

According to a news release from FreeBYU, BYU made the following changes to its Honor Code less than three weeks after the ABA acknowledged the discrimination complaint:

• “Observ{ing} the standards of the Honor Code” is now considered “sufficiently compelling grounds to warrant an exception to the university’s ecclesiastical endorsement requirement”
• Waiving one’s ecclesiastical privilege is no longer required for an exception
• “Unusual” or “extenuating circumstances” are no longer required for current students to receive an exception
• A March 2015 addition to the Admission Policy that allows ex-LDS applicants for admission to apply for an exception is now referenced in the Honor Code.

From the FreeBYU site:

Quote

BYU updated its Honor Code on November 9, 2015, less than three weeks after the American Bar Association acknowledged FreeBYU’s discrimination complaint against BYU’s Law School (October 21, 2015). In a letter dated July 14, 2016 to BYU Law’s dean, Gordon Smith, the ABA Accreditation Committee concluded “that no further action on the complaint was merited. The matter is now closed.”

Since each of the Honor Code changes directly addressed compliance issues raised in FreeBYU’s complaint, it is possible that the Committee’s decision was influenced by these changes.

...

FreeBYU asked university officials whether “the standards of the Honor Code” in this context include LDS observance for students who no longer consider themselves LDS. BYU spokesperson Carri Jenkins acknowledged the inquiry but did not respond to this question except to say, “All applications in this {Application for Exception} process are handled on a case-by-case basis.”

FreeBYU is, predictably, not satisfied (same link):

Quote

FreeBYU welcomes the modifications BYU has made to the Honor Code but does not believe the changes go far enough. By default, those who leave the LDS faith are still subject to expulsion, eviction, and termination. Therefore, FreeBYU calls upon BYU to:

• Honor the LDS Church’s 11th Article of Faith, which “allow all men… {to} worship how, where, or what they may.”
• Reform the Honor Code further by removing the prohibition on LDS disaffiliation, and by affirmatively stating that one’s religious affiliation is not an Honor Code issue: students are free to believe and worship according to the dictates of their own consciences without risking expulsion, termination, and eviction.

  FreeBYU encourages the media to reach out to BYU Idaho, BYU Hawaii, and LDS Business College to uncover why the Honor Code revisions were only applied to BYU’s Provo campus, and to clarify with BYU whether it will grant exceptions to the ecclesiastical endorsement requirement for students who leave Mormonism but otherwise comply with the Honor Code.

I'll be honest: I have had something of a conflicted opinion about this issue. I have not yet fully made up my mind. The FreeBYU folks make some fairly decent arguments. However, there is a rather strong whiff of - how shall I put it - hectoring going on here. Of the "Nice university you have here . . . it would be a shame if something happened to it" variety.

I am also rather appalled that the FreeBYU folks are openly encouraging BYU students to flout and disobey the Honor Code:

Quote

A reddit author has published a list of 21 tips for surviving at BYU while an ExMo. A few examples include:

1. Don’t bring up gospel topics with your roommates. Examples include anything in the CES letter. If your roommates share an experience or doctrine, just smile and say “that’s nice” and change the subject. You don’t have to contradict or expound. NEXT TOPIC. If you do, you risk a roommate telling the bishop, and there goes your endorsement possibly if your have a bad bishop.
2. Get rid of social media. Okay, that’s a little extreme. But for now, you’re going to want to lock down your Facebook security settings to prevent other people from adding or searching for you. Get rid of as many people as you can on your friends list. You never know when someone will tag you in a picture at some party with alcohol or whatever and then you have BYU honor code office breathing down your back. If you’re a guy, make sure you shave. If you’re a girl, make sure you wear “modest clothes” and no porn shoulders. You don’t want to trip any alarms at BYU. The goal is to STAY OFF THE RADAR. After 2 years or whatever, you can do whatever the hell you want. Just play it safe.

The author introduces the list with “Hopefully this will be helpful to a lot of you attending any version of BYU. These are a few suggestions to survive the next couple years at BYU as an ExMo. Keep in mind, not all of these are for everyone. Pick and choose what works/doesn’t work for you. This is after you decided you cannot transfer to another school and you’re pretty much stuck at BYU.”

“Flying under the radar” is by far the most common choice for LDS BYU students who doubt or come to disbelieve LDS teachings while attending. If this describes your situation, you may find some of the author’s suggestions helpful! Make sure to check out the comments as well for additional tips and insight.

A few thoughts about this:

First, I have a hard time buying the "you're pretty much stuck at BYU" excuse for deliberately flouting the Honor Code.  Nobody is "stuck."  BYU's credits are about as transferable as any other school's.

Second, one concern I have had about altering the Honor Code is that it would actually encourage deceit.  There is, I speculated, some Machiavellian delight to be had when A) a disaffected Latter-day Saint wants to stick it to the Church by B) faking a testimony long enough to dupe his/her bishop, then C) once accepted to BYU, resign from the LDS Church, and then D) sticking it to the LDS Church by getting a heavily-subsidized education for years, on the tithepayers' dime.  I thought that this pattern, or some variation of it, is perhaps one of the reasons BYU has stuck with the policy for so long.  This seemed a bit too farfetched to me.  Surely there are not sizeable numbers of people in the Church who would be so craven.  

And yet here we have FreeBYU acting all noble and whatnot to the media, while on their blog are pointing BYU students to a Reddit post that encourages the following:

• "Make friends far away from Provo. Make friends in SLC that aren't LDS. Network and make friends so you can have fun weekends. Make sure you have a place to stay at night in case you decide to drink a little too much."
• "When drinking, make sure you don't go above your limit. Generally guys should have 5 drinks max and girls 4 for average body weight. Be smart.  You never know when you'll have to be down on campus the next day."
• "Don't get too hung over. Be smart and drink lots of water to counter the effects the next day. If you do have to come down the campus the next day early for some reason, you can just say you're sick."
• "But make sure you shower really well. Brush your teeth. You don't want people smelling alcohol on you."
• "For tithing settlement, you can just say you pay a full tithe. Even if your statement shows $0, you can just say you're not working right now as a student."
• "Another tactic is to just avoid the tithing settlement altogether, and say you're out of town. Text the secretary that your answer is 'yes'."
• "You can also send $1 donations to SLC headquarters. The amount will not show up to the bishop, but it will say you have made a donation. So you may donate about $1 a month, or just a $1 donation in November for "catching up". The bishop will not see the amount. It is anonymous."
• "Make sure you have a current temple recommend. ... And it's really easy to get a recommend. Just google the questions, and practice saying 'yes' and 'no' at the right times and places. Be nice and have a smile during the interview  Their 'gift of discernment' means nothing. You'll pass with flying colors."
• "Don't have sex with anyone at BYU. You never know if they will feel guilty and turn both of you in."
• "If you decide to date a non-mormon that isn't in the Provo area, try and explain the situation to him/her and you're trying to keep things under wraps. ... Just don't let your significant other spill the beans that you went drinking/had sex/drank coffee/shopped on Sunday etc."
• "Seriously, don't keep alcohol in your apartment. That's just stupid at BYU."

 So perhaps my speculation was not too farfetched after all.

Finally, FreeBYU has lost all credibility with me.  Although I have generally disagreed with many of the things they were saying, I thought that at least they were making an honorable, principled argument about the Honor Code.  And yet here they are, openly encouraging BYU students to disobey it, and even giving specific tips on how to do so.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited August 18, 2016 by smac97

[Calm]

Any chance you can fix the formatting so it isn't so hard to read?  I tried quoting it to remove it myself but it won't let me.

[JAHS]

Since this is a news item a post was already started in the news board.

[SteveO]

I'd be fine with it if ex-Mormons continuing their education at BYU paid back their past semesters that were heavily subsidized with tithes.  Their whole thing is having a clear conscience concerning "the truth"--that they can't force themselves to continue believing something untrue.  I'd like to see these students put their money where their "consciences" are and pay back the money that was taken under false pretenses.  

[sunstoned]

Listing ways to get around the honor code is just not very classy. In fact, it is dishonest (IMO).

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

I'd be fine with it if ex-Mormons continuing their education at BYU paid back their past semesters that were heavily subsidized with tithes.

As long as BYU would be retroactively adjusting tuition charges, those non-Mormons who get baptized should get tuition reimbursements for the higher non-LDS tuition they paid before converting.

[rongo]

I'm okay with people who leave the Church or lose their testimony while at BYU finishing out their degree, *if* they otherwise keep the honor code standards and don't bad talk the Church. If they do, though, or do stuff like make dirty calendars or criticize the Church publicly, then throw them out, I say. 

I imagine that there are those, though, who don't believe any more, but who aren't looking to stick their thumb in BYU or the Church's eye. If they behave themselves, I don't have a problem with them finishing their study there. 

[SteveO]

7 minutes ago, Thinking said:

As long as BYU would be retroactively adjusting tuition charges, those non-Mormons who get baptized should get tuition reimbursements for the higher non-LDS tuition they paid before converting.

Sure.  Why not?

[rongo]

I don't know. I think it turns into a giant bookeeping mess if recalculations are constantly being made based on people's past and present membership status. Rebates and extra assessments? What a nightmare to calculate and track.

[BlueDreams]

15 minutes ago, rongo said:

I don't know. I think it turns into a giant bookeeping mess if recalculations are constantly being made based on people's past and present membership status. Rebates and extra assessments? What a nightmare to calculate and track.

The only thing I would assume is that filing the exception as now ex-LDS is that they be removed from further tithing-based reductions. I don't see the point of retroactive removal. 

And I think they should still live the honor code as much as possible. It only seems respectful. One can whine about it being irritating, unnecessary, or stifling (and I did)...but they're still paying for a good education and being saved from what would likely be thousands of dollars of more debt than they would have accrued at any other private university. 

The idea that some suggest ways to circumvent rules to me seems petty abd unappreciative.

 

with luv,

BD

Edited August 18, 2016 by BlueDreams

[Gray]

5 hours ago, SteveO said:

I'd be fine with it if ex-Mormons continuing their education at BYU paid back their past semesters that were heavily subsidized with tithes.  Their whole thing is having a clear conscience concerning "the truth"--that they can't force themselves to continue believing something untrue.  I'd like to see these students put their money where their "consciences" are and pay back the money that was taken under false pretenses.  

Does that mean they should also get a refund on the tithing they paid?

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

The only thing I would assume is that filing the exception as now ex-LDS is that they be removed from further tithing-based reductions. I don't see the point of retroactive removal. 

And I think they should still live the honor code as much as possible. It only seems respectful. One can whine about it being irritating, unnecessary, or stifling (and I did)...but they're still paying for a good education and being saved from what would likely be thousands of dollars of more debt than they would have accrued at any other private university. 

The idea that some suggest ways to circumvent rules to me seems petty abd unappreciative.

 

with luv,

BD

I had a colleague who was accepted into BYU's MBA program.  As a non-member (never was a member) he was required to obtain a ecclesiastical endorsement (from a minister of his choosing) and to live the Honor code just like members do.  The only difference was that he was not under an obligation to attend church services.

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

I had a colleague who was accepted into BYU's MBA program.  As a non-member (never was a member) he was required to obtain a ecclesiastical endorsement (from a minister of his choosing) and to live the Honor code just like members do.  The only difference was that he was not under an obligation to attend church services.

Yes. Same with 2 or so in the graduate programs I was in. I remember having one conversation mentioning we wouldn't care if she had coffee on one of our off campus trips (I think...can't remember) and she was adamant in following because this was what was asked of her. I thought it was a pretty good indicator of her integrity.

 

I figure living by what would be expected of the non-LDS students is fair in BYU's policy change. It makes no sense that one could choose what rules to follow while reaping the benefits of being in the school (a good degree at one of the most affordable rates out there). Cake eating and all that...

 

with luv, 

BD

Edited August 18, 2016 by BlueDreams

[HappyJackWagon]

Quote

First, I have a hard time buying the "you're pretty much stuck at BYU" excuse for deliberately flouting the Honor Code.  Nobody is "stuck."  BYU's credits are about as transferable as any other school's.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by your first line. If by "deliberately flouting the Honor Code" you mean openly not following required praxes (keeping word of wisdom, law of chastity etc) I would agree. Also, in cases where a member/ex-member is acting in open opposition to the church and proactively seeking to lead others away from the church, I would agree.

But for someone who changes faith and is still friendly to the church, I think there is great risk to them under the old policy and I can completely understand how they would feel stuck. Depending upon how far they are into their education, it is a major expense of money and time to change schools. AND it's assuming BYU allows the credits to be transferred. That isn't always the case.

This minor policy change is a very small step in the right direction. It allows for the possibility that a student could remain at BYU after a change of faith, instead of absolute dismissal in every case as it was before. But there are still a lot of question marks. It is hardly a certainty that a student will be able to stay so it is still a great risk to them if they choose to honestly share their feelings with a bishop. That is a shame. Students should be able to discuss matters of faith with their ecclesiastical leader without risking their educational future.

I'm glad Free BYU isn't satisfied with this minor step that BYU slipped in as a way of avoiding the Bar Review. Only time will tell if this theoretical change will result in any real change in implementation of policy.

 

[Buckeye]

9 hours ago, rongo said:

I'm okay with people who leave the Church or lose their testimony while at BYU finishing out their degree, *if* they otherwise keep the honor code standards and don't bad talk the Church. If they do, though, or do stuff like make dirty calendars or criticize the Church publicly, then throw them out, I say. 

I imagine that there are those, though, who don't believe any more, but who aren't looking to stick their thumb in BYU or the Church's eye. If they behave themselves, I don't have a problem with them finishing their study there. 

This is the correct approach. 

[stemelbow]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

Second, one concern I have had about altering the Honor Code is that it would actually encourage deceit.  There is, I speculated, some Machiavellian delight to be had when A) a disaffected Latter-day Saint wants to stick it to the Church by B) faking a testimony long enough to dupe his/her bishop, then C) once accepted to BYU, resign from the LDS Church, and then D) sticking it to the LDS Church by getting a heavily-subsidized education for years, on the tithepayers' dime.  I thought that this pattern, or some variation of it, is perhaps one of the reasons BYU has stuck with the policy for so long.  This seemed a bit too farfetched to me.  Surely there are not sizeable numbers of people in the Church who would be so craven.  

Losing one's faith is often a process that takes time, and finds people carried through difficult questions and back and forths--in and out of the Church.  Sure some just up and leave.  But for some, it's hard to do.  I can sympathize with those younger folks who while in school come across really tough and challenging information for the first time and are not sure how to deal with it.  It's a shame that they often feel like they have no where to go.  Add to the mix an essential getting kicked out of school or at least the threat of it...well, that's a problem.  "shall I go to my bishop?"  "Will he turn me in?"  "Am I that terrible a person?"  I'm just thinking there's so much complexity here, it really makes it tough to oppose FreeBYU's criticism.  I hear your points above but I don't see them as big deal enough to over ride the positives for ending the "can't leave the Church" deal. 

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

And yet here we have FreeBYU acting all noble and whatnot to the media, while on their blog are pointing BYU students to a Reddit post that encourages the following:

• "Make friends far away from Provo. Make friends in SLC that aren't LDS. Network and make friends so you can have fun weekends. Make sure you have a place to stay at night in case you decide to drink a little too much."
• "When drinking, make sure you don't go above your limit. Generally guys should have 5 drinks max and girls 4 for average body weight. Be smart.  You never know when you'll have to be down on campus the next day."
• "Don't get too hung over. Be smart and drink lots of water to counter the effects the next day. If you do have to come down the campus the next day early for some reason, you can just say you're sick."
• "But make sure you shower really well. Brush your teeth. You don't want people smelling alcohol on you."
• "For tithing settlement, you can just say you pay a full tithe. Even if your statement shows $0, you can just say you're not working right now as a student."
• "Another tactic is to just avoid the tithing settlement altogether, and say you're out of town. Text the secretary that your answer is 'yes'."
• "You can also send $1 donations to SLC headquarters. The amount will not show up to the bishop, but it will say you have made a donation. So you may donate about $1 a month, or just a $1 donation in November for "catching up". The bishop will not see the amount. It is anonymous."
• "Make sure you have a current temple recommend. ... And it's really easy to get a recommend. Just google the questions, and practice saying 'yes' and 'no' at the right times and places. Be nice and have a smile during the interview  Their 'gift of discernment' means nothing. You'll pass with flying colors."
• "Don't have sex with anyone at BYU. You never know if they will feel guilty and turn both of you in."
• "If you decide to date a non-mormon that isn't in the Provo area, try and explain the situation to him/her and you're trying to keep things under wraps. ... Just don't let your significant other spill the beans that you went drinking/had sex/drank coffee/shopped on Sunday etc."
• "Seriously, don't keep alcohol in your apartment. That's just stupid at BYU."

 So perhaps my speculation was not too farfetched after all.

Finally, FreeBYU has lost all credibility with me.  Although I have generally disagreed with many of the things they were saying, I thought that at least they were making an honorable, principled argument about the Honor Code.  And yet here they are, openly encouraging BYU students to disobey it, and even giving specific tips on how to do so.

Thanks,

-Smac

Still not a big enough deal to me to say the "can't leave the Church" thing is credible.  Any weasel out there can start internet campaigns promoting dishonest and overly rebellious behavior.  But that is a different issue to me. 

[Buckeye]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

Does that mean they should also get a refund on the tithing they paid?

Bingo. People change their minds all the time for sincere reasons. It's impossibly complex to try to go back and change all the actions that someone previously took under one set of beliefs, in order to make the actions conform to the new set of beliefs. The church emphatically does not pay people their tithing back, even if those people come to believe the church is a fraud and sue for a "refund." So why would the church expect people to pay back tuition benefits that were received when a person was a sincerely believing member?

Edited August 18, 2016 by Buckeye

[Buckeye]

13 hours ago, smac97 said:

Second, one concern I have had about altering the Honor Code is that it would actually encourage deceit.  There is, I speculated, some Machiavellian delight to be had when A) a disaffected Latter-day Saint wants to stick it to the Church by B) faking a testimony long enough to dupe his/her bishop, then C) once accepted to BYU, resign from the LDS Church, and then D) sticking it to the LDS Church by getting a heavily-subsidized education for years, on the tithepayers' dime.  I thought that this pattern, or some variation of it, is perhaps one of the reasons BYU has stuck with the policy for so long.  This seemed a bit too farfetched to me.  Surely there are not sizeable numbers of people in the Church who would be so craven.  

 

This concern is way overboard. All BYU students, regardless of religious affiliation, have to abide by outward standards such as chastity, WOW, etc. that are not found at most universities. Are you really suggesting that a sizeable number of teenagers are willing to put up with those stringent restrictions just to "stick it to the Church?" I don't see it. 

IMO, the biggest challenge here is not students, but faculty. If BYU changes the policy for students, then it will be hard-pressed not to make the same allowances for faculty who fall away from the church. Many of FreeBYU's arguments would apply equally to faculty. Some are even stronger. If transferring credits is difficult, imagine transferring tenure. Allowing faculty the right to leave the church would present considerable challenges. But it's looking like that will be the next battlefront. 

 

EDIT TO ADD: Also remember that BYU requires students to take 14 credit hours of religious studies. Is a disaffected LDS high school student really going to take that burden on just to "stick it to the Church?" Moreover, a disaffected LDS high school student would still be applying as an LDS applicant - meaning that 4 years of seminary graduation would be pretty much obligatory. So your hypothetical disaffected applicant would need to "fake it" through high school as well, giving up a ton of time for seminary, in order to get accepted to BYU. I do not see any kids willing to do all that just to save a few bucks. BYU's tuition is not that different from UU, UVU, Utah State, and other good schools in the area.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Buckeye

[Kenngo1969]

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2015/05/04/free-byu/

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66924-free-byu-the-j-reuben-clark-law-school-edition/?page=1

More later, perhaps.  Gotta run!  

[smac97]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Losing one's faith is often a process that takes time, and finds people carried through difficult questions and back and forths--in and out of the Church.  Sure some just up and leave.  But for some, it's hard to do.  I can sympathize with those younger folks who while in school come across really tough and challenging information for the first time and are not sure how to deal with it.  It's a shame that they often feel like they have no where to go.  Add to the mix an essential getting kicked out of school or at least the threat of it...well, that's a problem.  "shall I go to my bishop?"  "Will he turn me in?"  "Am I that terrible a person?"  I'm just thinking there's so much complexity here, it really makes it tough to oppose FreeBYU's criticism.  I hear your points above but I don't see them as big deal enough to over ride the positives for ending the "can't leave the Church" deal. 

Still not a big enough deal to me to say the "can't leave the Church" thing is credible.  Any weasel out there can start internet campaigns promoting dishonest and overly rebellious behavior.  But that is a different issue to me. 

You raise some good points.  Still, I wonder if BYU has looked at the profound levels of secularization and anti-Catholic sentiments in Catholic-affiliated institutions of higher learning and say "Hmm, we don't want BYU to go down that path."

I can understand principled criticisms of the Honor Code.  But FreeBYU is not principled.  It is Machiavellian.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

This concern is way overboard. All BYU students, regardless of religious affiliation, have to abide by outward standards such as chastity, WOW, etc. that are not found at most universities. Are you really suggesting that a sizeable number of teenagers are willing to put up with those stringent restrictions just to "stick it to the Church?" I don't see it. 

I'm not sure about "sizeable numbers."  But are there numbers sizeable enough to undermine the religious mission of BYU?  Look at the secularization that has happened in many Catholic-affiliated colleges and universities.  Look at how both students and faculty/administration (tenure is a beautiful thing, ain't it?) at those schools have engaged in conduct which contradicts and undermines the tenets of the Catholic faith.  These things are all out in the open.  So is such an undermining too remote a concern vis-à-vis BYU?  I'm not sure.  If I were to want to find ways to undermine BYU's religious mission, attacking the Honor Code would be one of the best ways to go.  Separating religious devotion from attendance or employment at a religiously-affiliated institution seems to be what has happened at the Catholic schools, and look how that is playing out.

Quote

IMO, the biggest challenge here is not students, but faculty. If BYU changes the policy for students, then it will be hard-pressed not to make the same allowances for faculty who fall away from the church. Many of FreeBYU's arguments would apply equally to faculty. Some are even stronger. If transferring credits is difficult, imagine transferring tenure. Allowing faculty the right to leave the church would present considerable challenges. But it's looking like that will be the next battlefront. 

I agree.  Once faculty members become untethered to BYU's religious mission, BYU is toast.

Quote

EDIT TO ADD: Also remember that BYU requires students to take 14 credit hours of religious studies. Is a disaffected LDS high school student really going to take that burden on just to "stick it to the Church?"

Well, yes.  That is one of the suggestions in the Reddit thread.  To fake it long enough to get through BYU, even if that means lying, deceiving, "going through the motions" of going to Church and taking religion classes.

Quote

Moreover, a disaffected LDS high school student would still be applying as an LDS applicant - meaning that 4 years of seminary graduation would be pretty much obligatory.  So your hypothetical disaffected applicant would need to "fake it" through high school as well, giving up a ton of time for seminary, in order to get accepted to BYU.

Devout LDS parents can contribute to the problem here.  Compulsory seminary attendance can foment some real resentment in teenagers, against both the parents and against the Church.  Moreover, there are some who apply to and attend BYU so as to not let their family down, but who lack a desire or willingness to adhere to the Honor Code.

Quote

I do not see any kids willing to do all that just to save a few bucks. BYU's tuition is not that different from UU, UVU, Utah State, and other good schools in the area.

True enough.  And yet the FreeBYU crowd is adamant that BYU capitulate on the Honor Code, despite there being other good schools in the area.  Now why is that?  Personally, I think a big clue is their endorsement of the Reddit thread.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Buckeye]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure about "sizeable numbers."  But are there numbers sizeable enough to undermine the religious mission of BYU?  Look at the secularization that has happened in many Catholic-affiliated colleges and universities.  Look at how both students and faculty/administration (tenure is a beautiful thing, ain't it?) at those schools have engaged in conduct which contradicts and undermines the tenets of the Catholic faith.  These things are all out in the open.  So is such an undermining too remote a concern vis-à-vis BYU?  I'm not sure.  If I were to want to find ways to undermine BYU's religious mission, attacking the Honor Code would be one of the best ways to go.  Separating religious devotion from attendance or employment at a religiously-affiliated institution seems to be what has happened at the Catholic schools, and look how that is playing out.

I agree.  Once faculty members become untethered to BYU's religious mission, BYU is toast.

Well, yes.  That is one of the suggestions in the Reddit thread.  To fake it long enough to get through BYU, even if that means lying, deceiving, "going through the motions" of going to Church and taking religion classes.

Devout LDS parents can contribute to the problem here.  Compulsory seminary attendance can foment some real resentment in teenagers, against both the parents and against the Church.  Moreover, there are some who apply to and attend BYU so as to not let their family down, but who lack a desire or willingness to adhere to the Honor Code.

True enough.  And yet the FreeBYU crowd is adamant that BYU capitulate on the Honor Code, despite there being other good schools in the area.  Now why is that?  Personally, I think a big clue is their endorsement of the Reddit thread.

Thanks,

-Smac

Wrong. FreeBYU is not calling on the elimination of the honor code. It is only focused on one aspect of the honor code - the one the prevents mormons from the religious right of changing their faith. FreeBYU is focused on students already at BYU who want to live the same honor code that non-LDS students abide by, but who honestly no longer believe the truth claims of the LDS church. Attendance at BYU does not require belief in the LDS truth claims. Hence, I had baptist, catholic, and muslim friends when I attended. 

Your hypothetical has nothing to do with FreeBYU's mission. You've envisioned non-admitted students who will play a long con just to save a few bucks. As I pointed out, there are few (likely none) applicants really to go through that rigmarole. But there are plenty of students already at the school who would like to finish their last few semesters and live honestly. BYU has a legal right to drop them. But the better policy is to let them stay. Doing so preserves good will with those students and their families. Heck, some of their families are themselves students at the Y. Consider a married couple, living in Wymount, where the husband loses faith, but the wife does not. They come to peace with each others decisions, the husband is happy to have the children raised in the church, but he doesn't want to "fake" the sacrament. It's poor policy to kick this guy out and thereby disrupt his entire still-believing family and a wife who wants to finish her studies at the Y.

[smac97]

1 minute ago, Buckeye said:

Wrong. FreeBYU is not calling on the elimination of the honor code.

Nope.  Not yet, anyway.  But they are openly encouraging BYU students to disobey both the spirit and letter of it.

FreeBYU is disgusting.

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It is only focused on one aspect of the honor code - the one the prevents mormons from the religious right of changing their faith.

Let's review again the "Survival Guide for an ExMo {at BYU}" post on the FreeBYU website, shall we?  Some highlights of the content to which FreeBYU links and encourages BYU students to utilize:

Quote

• "Make friends far away from Provo. Make friends in SLC that aren't LDS. Network and make friends so you can have fun weekends. Make sure you have a place to stay at night in case you decide to drink a little too much."
• "When drinking, make sure you don't go above your limit. Generally guys should have 5 drinks max and girls 4 for average body weight. Be smart.  You never know when you'll have to be down on campus the next day."
• "Don't get too hung over. Be smart and drink lots of water to counter the effects the next day. If you do have to come down the campus the next day early for some reason, you can just say you're sick."
• "But make sure you shower really well. Brush your teeth. You don't want people smelling alcohol on you."
• "For tithing settlement, you can just say you pay a full tithe. Even if your statement shows $0, you can just say you're not working right now as a student."
• "Another tactic is to just avoid the tithing settlement altogether, and say you're out of town. Text the secretary that your answer is 'yes'."
• "You can also send $1 donations to SLC headquarters. The amount will not show up to the bishop, but it will say you have made a donation. So you may donate about $1 a month, or just a $1 donation in November for "catching up". The bishop will not see the amount. It is anonymous."
• "Make sure you have a current temple recommend. ... And it's really easy to get a recommend. Just google the questions, and practice saying 'yes' and 'no' at the right times and places. Be nice and have a smile during the interview  Their 'gift of discernment' means nothing. You'll pass with flying colors."
• "Don't have sex with anyone at BYU. You never know if they will feel guilty and turn both of you in."
• "If you decide to date a non-mormon that isn't in the Provo area, try and explain the situation to him/her and you're trying to keep things under wraps. ... Just don't let your significant other spill the beans that you went drinking/had sex/drank coffee/shopped on Sunday etc."
• "Seriously, don't keep alcohol in your apartment. That's just stupid at BYU."

So if FreeBYU is only interested in "one aspect of the honor code" (allowing former LDS to attend) why are they encouraging BYU students to violate every single part of it?

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FreeBYU is focused on students already at BYU who want to live the same honor code that non-LDS students abide by, but who honestly no longer believe the truth claims of the LDS church.

Which sounded all nice and principled.  And yet they are publicly encouraging BYU students to disobey virtually every aspect of the Honor Code.

They are not principled.  They are Machiavellian.

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Attendance at BYU does not require belief in the LDS truth claims. Hence, I had baptist, catholic, and muslim friends when I attended. 

Which is a separate issue from FreeBYU publicly encouraging BYU students to disobey virtually every aspect of the Honor Code.

I thought they had a principled objection to the Honor Code.  They don't.  

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Your hypothetical has nothing to do with FreeBYU's mission. You've envisioned non-admitted students who will play a long con just to save a few bucks. As I pointed out, there are few (likely none) applicants really to go through that rigmarole.

Having gone to BYU twice (BA and JD), I'll have to disagree with you that there are "none."  I think most students at BYU are good and honorable.  But there are some or are Machiavellian and disgusting.  Which is why there is a Reddit thread devoted to such people and helping them figure out ways to continue to disobey every aspect of the Honor Code.  And FreeBYU is openly advocating that current BYU students do exactly that.

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But there are plenty of students already at the school who would like to finish their last few semesters and live honestly.

Which is a separate issue from FreeBYU publicly encouraging BYU students to disobey virtually every aspect of the Honor Code.

As I said, I initially thought FreeBYU had staked out for itself a principled, reasonable position relative to the Honor Code.  Even though I disagree with some (many) of the things they have said publicly, I at least admired them for standing on principle.

But there is nothing principled or honorable about openly encouraging BYU students to disobey virtually every aspect of the Honor Code.

The FreeBYU folks are disgusting.  They have lost all credibility with me.  As far as I am concerned, they are operating in bad faith.

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BYU has a legal right to drop them. But the better policy is to let them stay. Doing so preserves good will with those students and their families.

I agree.  I have had some first-hand experience in this regard.

Quote

Heck, some of their families are themselves students at the Y. Consider a married couple, living in Wymount, where the husband loses faith, but the wife does not. They come to peace with each others decisions, the husband is happy to have the children raised in the church, but he doesn't want to "fake" the sacrament. It's poor policy to kick this guy out and thereby disrupt his entire still-believing family and a wife who wants to finish her studies at the Y.

That sounds like a good, principled argument.

Which makes FreeBYU's bad faith use of it all the more repugnant and Machiavellian.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Gray]

22 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Nope.  Not yet, anyway.  But they are openly encouraging BYU students to disobey both the spirit and letter of it.

FreeBYU is disgusting.

Let's review again the "Survival Guide for an ExMo {at BYU}" post on the FreeBYU website, shall we?  Some highlights of the content to which FreeBYU links and encourages BYU students to utilize:

 

You make a good point, however Free BYU itself didn't mention all of those points, and they don't explicitly recommend most of them. But you're right, it's inconsistent with their stated mission to encourage BYU students to break aspects of the honor code not related to religious freedom. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Gray

[BlueDreams]

13 hours ago, Buckeye said:

 

EDIT TO ADD: Also remember that BYU requires students to take 14 credit hours of religious studies. Is a disaffected LDS high school student really going to take that burden on just to "stick it to the Church?" Moreover, a disaffected LDS high school student would still be applying as an LDS applicant - meaning that 4 years of seminary graduation would be pretty much obligatory. So your hypothetical disaffected applicant would need to "fake it" through high school as well, giving up a ton of time for seminary, in order to get accepted to BYU. I do not see any kids willing to do all that just to save a few bucks. BYU's tuition is not that different from UU, UVU, Utah State, and other good schools in the area.

To be accurate, that is assuming in-state tuition. Most BYU students aren't from the state and a good number of them also aren't residence of the state even a few years in. So uvu, for example, would be a lot more expensive for these students

 

with luv, 

BD