BYU Adjusts Its Honor Code (the FreeBYU Complaint Worked)

[Buckeye]

11 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

To be accurate, that is assuming in-state tuition. Most BYU students aren't from the state and a good number of them also aren't residence of the state even a few years in. So uvu, for example, would be a lot more expensive for these students

 

with luv, 

BD

That's a fair point, but I don't think it changes things. Most all students outside of Utah have other "in-state" options that are comparable to BYU in terms of price and quality. They may not get in-state treatment for UVU, but they will for CSU, ASU, Oregon, etc.

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, Buckeye said:

That's a fair point, but I don't think it changes things. Most all students outside of Utah have other "in-state" options that are comparable to BYU in terms of price and quality. They may not get in-state treatment for UVU, but they will for CSU, ASU, Oregon, etc.

UVU in-state is really the only one exactly comparable. But depending the program it can be a definite downgrade in education. It's ranking, though growing, isn't high.

Utah State is next closest (~6K)

UU is almost twice as much at 8K

UT-Austin, the school my bro is about to attend is 9K

ASU, CSU, and oregon is 10K

I don't mean to be stringent about it, it's just not a few bucks and with the problem with being loaded with debt by the end of your bachelor's it's a bit of a big deal. And it was one of the defining reasons I chose BYU. I think your main point is still fairly true, though. But for me who had little in savings and minimal prospects for family financial support, it was worth it. Particularly with the debt problems that is defining a college education nowadays. A couple thousand dollars was definitely a major concern.

 

With luv,

BD

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by BlueDreams

[Calm]

I have to speak up for UVU though I don't in any way disagree with your reasoning or conclusions.

In some areas, UVU has outstanding programs even if the overall standing isn't that high.  They have only had university standing for 10 years or so.  And their heritage as a technical school stays on in many ways (an emphasis on applied over theoretical, for example).  They also emphasize reaching out to the nontraditional student.  These last two points are big pluses in my book as they fill an essential need, but they also don't contribute as much to the traditional ratings system imo so comparisons based on such may miss out depending on what is being examined.

[Calm]

Got to do my part to keep student enrollment up at UVU...btw awhile back there were more transfers of students frm BYU to UVU than the reverse.   What can I say, I have fond memories of BYU, but my heart is with UVU...can anything BYU does compete with Restaurant Forte?

https://www.uvu.edu/ca/pages/services/forte.html

My husband plans to take advantage of this program once he is no longer in charge of his own department's:

http://www.uvu.edu/aviation/prospective-students/flight-school.html

UVU may not be unique (or it may be, I am more familiar with traditional path universities), but it is certainly a different experience than other academic environments I have been in (best faculty parties ever).

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/utah-valley-4027

"Recognized by the Carnegie Foundation with the Community Engagement Classification, UVU has a focus on "engaged learning" or the combination of traditional academic and hands-on education. This mode of teaching goes back to UVU's roots as a vocational school at its inception during World War II and persists today across the institution's full array of university-level programs. UVU offers a range of programs including non-credit training, career/technical education, developmental education, associate degrees, baccalaureate degrees, and master's degrees. UVU is distinctive in its culture and aim. As one of the largest, open admissions, public universities in the nation, UVU offers and awards roughly an equal number of associate's and bachelor's degrees."

Now back to boring BYU.

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I have to speak up for UVU though I don't in any way disagree with your reasoning or conclusions.

In some areas, UVU has outstanding programs even if the overall standing isn't that high.  They have only had university standing for 10 years or so.  And their heritage as a technical school stays on in many ways (an emphasis on applied over theoretical, for example).  They also emphasize reaching out to the nontraditional student.  These last two points are big pluses in my book as they fill an essential need, but they also don't contribute as much to the traditional ratings system imo so comparisons based on such may miss out depending on what is being examined.

Definitely. I'm hoping my one brother will go there. For me that wasn't an option. Partially because I'm an east coast snob at heart where ranking did matter at the time. Partially because UVSC (it became UVU while I was out here) wasn't even on my radar...I didn't know about it. Partially because I'm very competitive. My best grades were often in the classes that were the most difficult. Without the need to excel I don't do as well. But many of my friends have gone to UVU and really love it. The facilities are wonderful and the only 2 faculty members I do know there are great. It wouldn't have been a good fit for me though considering what I wanted academically. but I would have no qualms taking classes from them in art (currently the only thing I don't feel opposed to getting further education in).

 

With luv,

BD

Edited August 19, 2016 by BlueDreams

[rongo]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

I don't mean to be stringent about it, it's just not a few bucks and with the problem with being loaded with debt by the end of your bachelor's it's a bit of a big deal. And it was one of the defining reasons I chose BYU. I think your main point is still fairly true, though. But for me who had little in savings and minimal prospects for family financial support, it was worth it. Particularly with the debt problems that is defining a college education nowadays. A couple thousand dollars was definitely a major concern.

My two semesters of baccalaureate work at ASU cost $8,000. Back in 2006. I think it's up to $12,000 now per year.

I was able to get my degree at BYU without student loans or any other debt. With me and my wife doing graveyard janitorial (Richards building) for two years @ $6.00 per hour. We were poor, but we didn't have any debt. This made me want to endow (if I'm ever rich) a scholarship for students who maintain a 3.0 while working at least 20 hours a week. All of the scholarships are gobbled up by the same people --- and 3.0 is too low for any of them. 

 

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Definitely. I'm hoping my one brother will go there. For me that wasn't an option. Partially because I'm an east coast snob at heart where ranking did matter at the time. Partially because UVSC (it became UVU while I was out here) wasn't even on my radar...I didn't know about it. Partially because I'm very competitive. My best grades were often in the classes that were the most difficult. Without the need to excel I don't do as well. But many of my friends have gone to UVU and really love it. The facilities are wonderful and the only 2 faculty members I do know there are great. It wouldn't have been a good fit for me though considering what I wanted academically. but I would have no qualms taking classes from them in art (currently the only thing I don't feel opposed to getting further education in).

 

With luv,

BD

For your field, it was definitely the right choice, imo.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 8/19/2016 at 2:33 PM, Calm said:

Got to do my part to keep student enrollment up at UVU...btw awhile back there were more transfers of students frm BYU to UVU than the reverse.   What can I say, I have fond memories of BYU, but my heart is with UVU...can anything BYU does compete with Restaurant Forte?

https://www.uvu.edu/ca/pages/services/forte.html

My husband plans to take advantage of this program once he is no longer in charge of his own department's:

http://www.uvu.edu/aviation/prospective-students/flight-school.html

UVU may not be unique (or it may be, I am more familiar with traditional path universities), but it is certainly a different experience than other academic environments I have been in (best faculty parties ever).

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/utah-valley-4027

"Recognized by the Carnegie Foundation with the Community Engagement Classification, UVU has a focus on "engaged learning" or the combination of traditional academic and hands-on education. This mode of teaching goes back to UVU's roots as a vocational school at its inception during World War II and persists today across the institution's full array of university-level programs. UVU offers a range of programs including non-credit training, career/technical education, developmental education, associate degrees, baccalaureate degrees, and master's degrees. UVU is distinctive in its culture and aim. As one of the largest, open admissions, public universities in the nation, UVU offers and awards roughly an equal number of associate's and bachelor's degrees."

Now back to boring BYU.

One of the arguments Dave Ramsey makes is that an education offered by many high-prestige universities is not that much better than your local community college to justify the extreme difference in cost. Therefore, students and their parents ought not saddle themselves with heavy debt  for many years to come just for a certain name on a diploma. You'll do better in the long run not starting out with a huge debt burden than you will having that diploma. 

Edited August 21, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

On August 18, 2016 at 10:38 AM, smac97 said:

You raise some good points.  Still, I wonder if BYU has looked at the profound levels of secularization and anti-Catholic sentiments in Catholic-affiliated institutions of higher learning and say "Hmm, we don't want BYU to go down that path."

I can understand principled criticisms of the Honor Code.  But FreeBYU is not principled.  It is Machiavellian.

Thanks,

-Smac

I agree with you about FreeBYU, and the fact they are not satisfied with the changes made to the BYU Honor Code mitigates to some degree my disappointment in those changes. 

I'll repeat: I wish FreeBYU every failure. 

Edited August 21, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[cinepro]

On 8/17/2016 at 7:45 PM, smac97 said:

Second, one concern I have had about altering the Honor Code is that it would actually encourage deceit.  There is, I speculated, some Machiavellian delight to be had when A) a disaffected Latter-day Saint wants to stick it to the Church by B) faking a testimony long enough to dupe his/her bishop, then C) once accepted to BYU, resign from the LDS Church, and then D) sticking it to the LDS Church by getting a heavily-subsidized education for years, on the tithepayers' dime. 
 

I don't think the "sticking it to the tithepayers" argument really works.  The tithing paid by students before they get to BYU and while at BYU is probably pretty negligible.  It's their parent's tithing (both current and past), and the students' future tithing, that is really the big factor.  I'm assuming most dissafected students at BYU would still have parents paying tithing, and their future selves aren't going to be paying tithing anyway, so there is nothing really lost there.

 

[Sky]

I'm fine with the ex-Mormons finishing out their education if they agree to keep the Honor Code in every other way.  Certainly don't be bashing the Church and sleeping around and/or getting drunk.  

Encouraging back-handed methods in order to get around the Honor Code is not okay with me.  

The are plenty of believing members that would love to attend BYU and obey all the rules wholeheartedly, but can't do that for various reasons.  I think we should be fair to them, too.  

There are plenty of other educational options for people if BYU truly isn't a good fit for them.  Ultimately, BYU is owned by a private religious institution, and I think they should be able to make their own rules accordingly.  

[sjdawg]

If you want to have an honor code (and I'm all for it even though I think some aspects of the BYU honor code are over the top) just make it behavior based an not related to any particular religious affiliation.   Don't have 2 sets of rules.