BYU now a target for LGBT groups

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

If that's your view of God.  Yes.

That's the view of God Christianity teaches.  Different denominations disagree about what He condones and what He condemns, but regardless of what someone believes the standard is, Christianity teaches that those who follow His standard are treated differently than those who don't.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I assume you understand that those outside of our church don't place much value on the church's understanding of "what God condones" when evaluating discrimination?  Right?

Of course, but as I said before i'm not having a conversation with them.  I'm having this discussion with you and trying to understand your claims that the church is doing something immoral by not treating gay couples and straight couples the same. 

The church's understanding of what God condones is relevant to you and I when we are evaluating discrimination, right?

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well, we can argue whether BYU's policy works for BYU or is good in some way.  But that's not really the point.  Some don't like the discrimination in this instance and are wanton to say so.  In so doing they also think another group needs to be aware that the discrimination in their eyes is problematic. 

Why would it be wrong for someone or a group in this case, point out discrimination they don't like?  Are we all really supposed to just agree that BYU's discrimination is reasonable in light of Mormonism's position?  That doesn't really matter as per the discussion. 

I don't think it is wrong for people to point out what they don't like.  I'm not addressing that. 

I'm trying to understand rockpond's accusation of immoral action by BYU knowing that he accepts discrimination under different circumstances.  Since we are both believing members, mormonism's position is relevant.

[rockpond]

59 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's the view of God Christianity teaches.  Different denominations disagree about what He condones and what He condemns, but regardless of what someone believes the standard is, Christianity teaches that those who follow His standard are treated differently than those who don't.

Yes, and I am one of a large group of Christians and a growing group of Mormons who believe that God approves of same sex unions.

[rockpond]

54 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Of course, but as I said before i'm not having a conversation with them.  I'm having this discussion with you and trying to understand your claims that the church is doing something immoral by not treating gay couples and straight couples the same. 

The church's understanding of what God condones is relevant to you and I when we are evaluating discrimination, right?

No.  Discrimination is discrimination regardless of what one believes is God's will.

[bluebell]

52 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Yes, and I am one of a large group of Christians and a growing group of Mormons who believe that God approves of same sex unions.

I realize that. Would it be safe to say then that for you the problem with BYU policies regarding straight and gay students isn't one of discrimination but one of someone being unfairly held to a standard that isn't of God?

 

[CV75]

55 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No.  Discrimination is discrimination regardless of what one believes is God's will.

That seems a rather rigid and parochial view.

A legal definition of discrimination, which I think is what these groups are trying to leverage against BYU, is the act of denying public rights, benefits, justice, equitable treatment, or access to facilities available to all others, to an individual or group of people because of their race, age, gender, handicap or other defining, protected class characteristic. There are other definitions of discrimination, some portraying it as  virtue, so discrimination is not always discrimination and very much depends on what one believes and how one is using it in a particular way.

BYU is acting consistently with D&C 134:10, a religious principle and a freedom protected by the nation’s constitution. BYU has an honor code that pertains only to the rights, benefits, justice, equitable treatment, and access to facilities of its religious community, and not to the public at large, and is not discrimination.

Some will point out that this is same argument held over the Supreme Court decisions bringing about the desegregation and integration of private institutions that receive tax subsidies and exemptions in order to allow the government to manage public funds in accordance with anti-discrimination laws. However, where religious behavior, and even socially-acceptable behavior within a community, is not determined by any of the protected class designations, legal discrimination does not apply. In this case, religious behavior -- marriage and chastity -- is to be constitutionally protected.

Edited August 10, 2016 by CV75

[rongo]

15 hours ago, rockpond said:

Great point.  And definitely history repeating itself (think 1968-1969 at SJSU and Wyoming). 

Wyoming ended up being a big blowback, though. The protesting black players were kicked off the team, and a promising Wyoming season went down the drain when the coach refused to let his players embroil themselves in political/social agitating. He told them if they refused to play BYU, then they were off the team and their scholarships revoked.

I would like to see the protesters and agitators go to far and experience backlash. Perhaps this will happen here, where I think they're overreaching.

Isn't Kate Kelly involved with this (Utah Planned Parenthood head)?

[rockpond]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I realize that. Would it be safe to say then that for you the problem with BYU policies regarding straight and gay students isn't one of discrimination but one of someone being unfairly held to a standard that isn't of God?

 

No, the problem I have with the BYU policies is that they discriminate based on sexual orientation.  I believe that all are alike unto God.

[bluebell]

59 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No.  Discrimination is discrimination regardless of what one believes is God's will.

But discrimination isn't always wrong so whether or not something is discrimination is less important than whether or not it's just.

Jesus' discrimination against Gentiles during his ministry wasn't unjust, right?

 

[rockpond]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

That seems a rather rigid and parochial view.

A legal definition of discrimination, which I think is what these groups are trying to leverage against BYU, is the act of denying public rights, benefits, justice, equitable treatment, or access to facilities available to all others, to an individual or group of people because of their race, age, gender, handicap or other defining, protected class characteristic. There are other definitions of discrimination, some portraying it as  virtue, so discrimination is not always discrimination and very much depends on what one believes and how one is using it in a particular way.

BYU is acting consistently with D&C 134:10, a religious principle and a freedom protected by the nation’s constitution. BYU has an honor code that pertains only to the rights, benefits, justice, equitable treatment, and access to facilities of its religious community, and not to the public at large, and is not discrimination.

Some will point out that this is same argument held over the Supreme Court decisions bringing about the desegregation and integration of private institutions that receive tax subsidies and exemptions in order to allow the government to manage public funds in accordance with anti-discrimination laws. However, where religious behavior, and even socially-acceptable behavior within a community, is not determined by any of the protected class designations, legal discrimination does not apply. In this case, religious behavior -- marriage and chastity -- is to be constitutionally protected.

Well, I haven't been referencing the legal definition of discrimination as it is irrelevant to me.

BYU does and should have the right to discriminate whether it be based on Section 134 or something else.

And the Big 12 can discriminate as well.

[rockpond]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

Wyoming ended up being a big blowback, though. The protesting black players were kicked off the team, and a promising Wyoming season went down the drain when the coach refused to let his players embroil themselves in political/social agitating. He told them if they refused to play BYU, then they were off the team and their scholarships revoked.

I would like to see the protesters and agitators go to far and experience backlash. Perhaps this will happen here, where I think they're overreaching.

Isn't Kate Kelly involved with this (Utah Planned Parenthood head)?

I have no idea if Kelly is involved.

Yep, WY suffered but don't you think it raised awareness of the issue?  I don't know - I wasn't even alive and haven't studied it much.

I don't think that this is a big enough deal to cause any backlash for the LGBT groups involved even though I agree that they are overreaching.  But I assume at some point the LGBT advocacy will go too far and be on the receiving end of some blowback.  A little reality check every now and again isn't a bad thing.

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But discrimination isn't always wrong so whether or not something is discrimination is less important than whether or not it's just.

Jesus' discrimination against Gentiles during his ministry wasn't unjust, right?

Jesus was perfect, so to the extent that His discrimination in the Bible is recorded accurately... no, it wasn't unjust.

And I agree... discrimination isn't always wrong.  For me, the discrimination BYU enforces against its gay students is not just.  For you, I gather that it is just.

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Well, I haven't been referencing the legal definition of discrimination as it is irrelevant to me.

BYU does and should have the right to discriminate whether it be based on Section 134 or something else.

And the Big 12 can discriminate as well.

Are you saying that those pressuring the Big 12 and in turn pressuring BYU are doing so only to assert their sense of morality, without regard to anti-discrimination law?

Edited August 10, 2016 by CV75

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Yes, and I am one of a large group of Christians and a growing group of Mormons who believe that God approves of same sex unions.

Why would God approve of Same sex unions?

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Yep, WY suffered but don't you think it raised awareness of the issue?

With the protests being in 1969 and the priesthood ban being lifted in 1978, I don't think the Wyoming, Colorado St., San Jose St., Stanford protests played any role. The whole climate towards BYU and the Church from the late 1960s had died down by 1978. The Sao Paolo temple was 99%+ of the impetus behind lifting the ban, not protests.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No, the problem I have with the BYU policies is that they discriminate based on sexual orientation.  I believe that all are alike unto God.

I agree that all are alike unto God. But it seems obvious that we don't all get to act according to our personal desires. Some of us do and some don't. It all depends on whether or not our desires match God's.  

Do you agree that BYU's policy of discrimination based on status (where married couples are treated differently than single couples) is acceptable?

[carbon dioxide]

16 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No, the problem I have with the BYU policies is that they discriminate based on sexual orientation.  I believe that all are alike unto God.

Discrimination is a part of the plan of God but his discrimination is not based on superficial issues like race, weight, hair color but actions.  Jesus separates the sheep from the goats.  This is discrimination but is righteous discrimination. Those that keep the commandments are not in the same boat as those that do not keep them.  Not everyone is alike to God.

Edited August 10, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Why would God approve of Same sex unions?

Off topic for this thread.

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree that all are alike unto God. But it seems obvious that we don't all get to act according to our personal desires. Some of us do and some don't. It all depends on whether or not our desires match God's.  

Do you agree that BYU's policy of discrimination based on status (where married couples are treated differently than single couples) is acceptable?

You mean where married couples are treated differently than unmarried couples?  (I'm not sure what a "single couple" is.)   ...Yes, it's acceptable to me.

And for me, the desire of a person to commit to another person and share eternity, as one, matches what God seems to want for his children.

[carbon dioxide]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Off topic for this thread.

Very well

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Discrimination is a part of the plan of God but his discrimination is not based on superficial issues like race, weight, hair color but actions.  Jesus separates the sheep from the goats.  This is discrimination but is righteous discrimination. Those that keep the commandments are not in the same boat as those that do not keep them.  Not everyone is alike to God.

"Righteous discrimination" from a mainstream LDS point of view.  Just "discrimination" to the LGBT groups campaigning against BYU's entry into the Big 12.

[CV75]

23 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No, the problem I have with the BYU policies is that they discriminate based on sexual orientation.  I believe that all are alike unto God.

But that is false. The polices address standards of religious behavior (marriage and chastity), not sexual orientation. Those protesting BYU's entrance into Big 12 need to get over themselves.

[carbon dioxide]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

"Righteous discrimination" from a mainstream LDS point of view.  Just "discrimination" to the LGBT groups campaigning against BYU's entry into the Big 12.

If the Big 12 want to reject BYU based on its honor code, I have no problem with that.  Life will go on.

[USU78]

4 hours ago, rockpond said:

Did you support the Church's campaigning against legally recognized marriage for gay couples?

If so, what is fundamentally different about their campaign vs what is being done by LGBT advocacy groups? 

Yes.

Defense against the Hun vs Hunnish imperialism.