The Gap is too Wide to Bridge

[Atheist Mormon]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Nonsense.

Truth is eternal.  Our understanding of truth is a work in progress to be sure.
But that applies to things where no absolute truth was revealed.  When absolute truths have been revealed, their eternal nature exists and there is no more progress to be made.

You are belying (contradicting) one of the core premise of this Church which is "Eternal Progression" . That was one of the most important ingredients of this church I was drawn to.

When you wrote "nonsense" to my comments, what part was "nonsense"?

[thesometimesaint]

6 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

You are belying (contradicting) one of the core premise of this Church which is "Eternal Progression" . That was one of the most important ingredients of this church I was drawn to.

When you wrote "nonsense" to my comments, what part was "nonsense"?

You are overplaying Eternal Progression.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

Well, the Supreme Court did decide that members of the Church (and others) don't have the right to vote away the rights of a minority group of people.

Yes, and how ironic that the same Supreme Court disallowed the rights of the LDS Church to practice their non-traditional marriage in Reynolds v USA.  The worm has now turned.  Do any of us have a sense of perspective?

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

This is a mormon themed message board. Believe me i am more than willing to let bygones be bygones and agree to disagree. But when ssm advocates come on here, bash the Church, tell us we should minimize important doctrine, waive their beliefs in our face that the Church will succomb to social pressure, then what are we supposed to do? It goes both ways CB. If you want me to leave your lifestyle choices alone, don't come on here and attack the church. If you cant or wont do that or feel the need to condemn the church, then my guess is this cycle will continue.

I think you are directing this at the wrong person.  CFR that I bashed the church or told you we should minimize important doctrine or succumb to social pressure?????

This is what I said in the exact quote you are posting your comments.  Kinda counters everything you have called me out for doesn't it.

Quote

We don't demand that the church change anything.

If you read my posts, you will find that sentiment expressed over and over and over again. I also don't bash the church.  I may disagree with some of its policies and doctrine.  But I never demand the the church change it's teachings.  Is that ok??  Or is this a board where we are all suppose to agree with everything the church does.  Because if that is the case, I will be more than happy to withdraw from posting on this board.  

[JLHPROF]

37 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

You are belying (contradicting) one of the core premise of this Church which is "Eternal Progression" . That was one of the most important ingredients of this church I was drawn to.

When you wrote "nonsense" to my comments, what part was "nonsense"?

 

30 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

You are overplaying Eternal Progression.

Exactly.  Progression means acquisition of new knowledge, not removal of previously revealed knowledge.

"what part was "nonsense"?"

That would be - "Truth is not even close to being eternal."
Truth doesn't change.  We just progress in our understanding of it.

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Exactly.  Progression means acquisition of new knowledge, not removal of previously revealed knowledge.

"what part was "nonsense"?"

That would be - "Truth is not even close to being eternal."
Truth doesn't change.  We just progress in our understanding of it.

Outstanding.  I wish I could be this succinct and to-the-point in my writing.

-Smac

[Mystery Meat]

19 minutes ago, california boy said:

I think you are directing this at the wrong person.  CFR that I bashed the church or told you we should minimize important doctrine or succumb to social pressure?????

This is what I said in the exact quote you are posting your comments.  Kinda counters everything you have called me out for doesn't it.

If you read my posts, you will find that sentiment expressed over and over and over again. I also don't bash the church.  I may disagree with some of its policies and doctrine.  But I never demand the the church change it's teachings.  Is that ok??  Or is this a board where we are all suppose to agree with everything the church does.  Because if that is the case, I will be more than happy to withdraw from posting on this board.  

You do not have to agree, but if you disagree (like with the most recent policy for example and distort its intentions and application) then yes, you will be called out.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Truth is not even close to being eternal. Truth is a "work in progress" as church history shows; Priesthood for blacks approved, polygamy rescinded....(many other important doctrines altered)......

It is not an eternal principle, it is "attitude adjustment".

Actually all where changed as a result of God listening to the cry's of Prophets. Just as Moses pledged with God on more than one occasion when God has decided that he would destroy Israel. At which time as scripture stated, "God repented of the evil he sought to do". Simply put, "...the prayers of a righteous man availeth (hope I spelled that right) much". 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, california boy said:

I think you are directing this at the wrong person.  CFR that I bashed the church...

I have never seen you do so, and for that I thank you. Although I am not so arrogant to believe you have not for my benefit, but it is just not your style. Keep up the good work.  

[california boy]

7 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

You do not have to agree, but if you disagree (like with the most recent policy for example and distort its intentions and application) then yes, you will be called out.

I think you are going to have to understand that we both have different perspectives on what the church does and teaches.   Our view on things are probably always going to be different. And that is ok.  At least for me.  In fact, it is the reason I post on this board.  I am interested in how other people view things differently than I do.  And I try to understand their point of view, even when I disagree with it.

[Atheist Mormon]

59 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

You are overplaying Eternal Progression.

I Don't think so. You should know, this concept is the foundation of the church.

[california boy]

4 minutes ago, Pa Pa said:

I have never seen you do so, and for that I thank you. Although I am not so arrogant to believe you have not for my benefit, but it is just not your style. Keep up the good work.  

You don't know how much your comment means to me  Pa Pa.  I always appreciate your posts, even when I disagree with them.  I think you are respectful, and yet have a clear point of view that sometimes differs from mine.  Lately I have been seriously thinking about no longer posting.  Mostly because I feel like people really don't want to hear a different point of view from their own.  And for some reason, I seem to offend people.  Though I don't mean to.  I know I do not always get what people are trying to express right.  I should try and get clarification more often before I respond.  Perhaps I express my point of view too strongly.  More deep breaths are needed. lol.

[Rock_N_Roll]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

You don't know how much your comment means to me  Pa Pa.  I always appreciate your posts, even when I disagree with them.  I think you are respectful, and yet have a clear point of view that sometimes differs from mine.  Lately I have been seriously thinking about no longer posting.  Mostly because I feel like people really don't want to hear a different point of view from their own.  And for some reason, I seem to offend people.  Though I don't mean to.  I know I do not always get what people are trying to express right.  I should try and get clarification more often before I respond.  Perhaps I express my point of view too strongly.  More deep breaths are needed. lol.

I, for one, would miss reading your posts CA.  I enjoy reading your point of view on most topics.  

[Mystery Meat]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

I think you are going to have to understand that we both have different perspectives on what the church does and teaches.   Our view on things are probably always going to be different. And that is ok.  At least for me.  In fact, it is the reason I post on this board.  I am interested in how other people view things differently than I do.  And I try to understand their point of view, even when I disagree with it.

I am not made uncomfortable by disagreement. Life is messy. People disagree. But on this particular topic, disagreement will inevitably be a bit more personal as disagreement probably involves valued and loving relationships. Some of the first posts on this thread seemed to suggest that people were tired of having the Church's viewpoint thrust down their throats. I get that because I feel the same way about the viewpoints of those who disagree with the Church. It goes both ways. But on a message board like this, the Church's viewpoint will be defended.

[Gray]

37 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Exactly.  Progression means acquisition of new knowledge, not removal of previously revealed knowledge.

"what part was "nonsense"?"

That would be - "Truth is not even close to being eternal."
Truth doesn't change.  We just progress in our understanding of it.

There have been plenty of changes to church doctrine and practice that removed things previously "known" (believed)

[ERMD]

The gap will do nothing but get wider.  The bounds the Lord has set will not change, but society and morals will.

Those who are looking to find fault will find it, and those who are looking to be offended will be.

[thesometimesaint]

11 minutes ago, Gray said:

There have been plenty of changes to church doctrine and practice that removed things previously "known" (believed)

Policy(Practice)has always been subject to change. Doctrine is much harder to change.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I find it interesting that people seem to reduce same-sex relationships to the physical act of sex when there is so much more to a relationship than that. I think the church recognizes that, as over the years I've seen counsel for homosexual members to avoid having close friendships with those of the same sex, holding hands, embracing, or kissing. As I recall, you could get in trouble with the Standards Office at BYU if you held hands with, embraced, or kissed someone of the same sex, even though none of that violates the law of chastity.

Even if you think that homosexual intercourse is a perversion, you have to recognize that you're not just asking people to not have sex, but you are asking them to abstain from the kinds of intimate bonds of friendship and love that most of us take for granted. In a way, you are compensating for oversexualization by asking LGBTQ members to be undersexualized or perhaps even nonsexualized. 

It isn't so much that people of all sorts should feel repressed from expressing natural affection at BYU or elsewhere, as that Western society generally has become so accepting of crude, rude, and even ghastly behavior, instead of mutual respect and tolerance, that sincere questions of basic values must be posed.  In the midst of a generation with focus on self and selfies, one sees blatant sexuality and sensuality dominating art, music, advertizing, etc., so that the summum bonum is keeping up with the Kardashians (as it were) and Hugh Hefner, as though nothing else matters.  The swing of the pendulum has produced a society in which "live and let live" is no longer enough, but rather that those who do not fully adopt the ways of the world are accorded the full fury of the new wave.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It isn't so much that people of all sorts should feel repressed from expressing natural affection at BYU or elsewhere, as that Western society generally has become so accepting of crude, rude, and even ghastly behavior, instead of mutual respect and tolerance, that sincere questions of basic values must be posed.  In the midst of a generation with focus on self and selfies, one sees blatant sexuality and sensuality dominating art, music, advertizing, etc., so that the summum bonum is keeping up with the Kardashians (as it were) and Hugh Hefner, as though nothing else matters.  The swing of the pendulum has produced a society in which "live and let live" is no longer enough, but rather that those who do not fully adopt the ways of the world are accorded the full fury of the new wave.

I'd say that's a pretty big overstatement. Live and let live is still the default, IMO.

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, Thinking said:

The Church officially spent very little money on Prop 8.

A lot of  local California members donated money to the Prop 8 campaign, which was not conducted under Church auspices.  Thus, donations went to the campaign itself, the same way donations to Boy Scouts is a non-Church affair.  No Church financial clerks were involved.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'd say that's a pretty big overstatement. Live and let live is still the default, IMO.

In the West today?  Open your eyes, John.  I see no such mutual respect and tolerance.  Those who do not adopt crude and rude behavior are quickly marginalized and held in contempt.  Sincerity is declasse.

[california boy]

32 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I am not made uncomfortable by disagreement. Life is messy. People disagree. But on this particular topic, disagreement will inevitably be a bit more personal as disagreement probably involves valued and loving relationships. Some of the first posts on this thread seemed to suggest that people were tired of having the Church's viewpoint thrust down their throats. I get that because I feel the same way about the viewpoints of those who disagree with the Church. It goes both ways. But on a message board like this, the Church's viewpoint will be defended.

Of course, as I would expect it to be.  Even not on a Mormon Discussion Board, I would expect you to defend the church's viewpoint if that is what you believe and support.  

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In the West today?  Open your eyes, John.  I see no such mutual respect and tolerance.  Those who do not adopt crude and rude behavior are quickly marginalized and held in contempt.  Sincerity is declasse.

I live and work among people who exhibit respect and tolerance every day. We live in a very diverse area, ethnically and religiously, and I don't see this rampant crude and rude behavior or the marginalization you speak of. Maybe they just do that in Utah.  

Edited June 17, 2016 by jkwilliams

[hope_for_things]

6 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

And of course, there is this sort of thing, which no one seems to want to acknowledge.

http://www.squaretwo.org/Sq2ArticleChristensenRashomon.html

But it's easy enough to acknowledge if you know how to recognize it when present and then see what to do about it when you do.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Kevin,

I liked this article a lot, some very interesting observations from your perspective, and I appreciated reading through it.  Thanks for sharing! 

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, california boy said:

You don't know how much your comment means to me  Pa Pa.  I always appreciate your posts, even when I disagree with them.  I think you are respectful, and yet have a clear point of view that sometimes differs from mine.  Lately I have been seriously thinking about no longer posting.  Mostly because I feel like people really don't want to hear a different point of view from their own.  And for some reason, I seem to offend people.  Though I don't mean to.  I know I do not always get what people are trying to express right.  I should try and get clarification more often before I respond.  Perhaps I express my point of view too strongly.  More deep breaths are needed. lol.

Dialog and love are the only thing that will ever bridge the gap between differences of opinion. Besides good people can always disagree, agreeably. Your voice here is one of reason and clam, stay the course. You and I may always disagree on some things, but we are not enemies. I have someone whom I want all to be respectful too and loved, as I love her.