Missionaries detained by police

[jkwilliams]

20 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I'm sure I'll be corrected if things have changed, but 25 years ago each mission area had a little book called something like, "Area Baptism Records," filled with carbonless forms, each about 4" x 8" in size.  In addition to the basic demographic information and signature of the person being baptized, you needed two signatures--one from a missionary that gave the lessons, and one from the missionary that conducted the baptismal interview.  After it was signed, one copy of the record stays in the book, and the other two go up the chain to the mission office.

They can call anything they want a "requirement" but at the end of the day, the baptism is official and everybody gets credit for it as long as the forms get filled out and signed.  So answering your question, there only needs to be four people in on it for a "scam" like this to work: the two missionaries that get credit for the baptism, the DL (or ZL) that does the interview, and the DL's or ZL's companion.

I'm sure the missionaries have their own spin on things, but I bet the essential facts of the story are true.

I was the statistics secretary in my mission, so it was my job to count the forms and send them and our monthly reports to Salt Lake. As long as the form was filled out properly, I wouldn't have questioned it. 

When I was district leader and zone leader, it was the same: once the baptism was done and the form filled out, we had no reason to question or reject the ordinances. 

As you say, the missionaries needed only the signature of a DL or ZL, so there need be no vast conspiracy. 

[consiglieri]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 9:14 AM, Jeanne said:

Question for you return missionaries old and young..because I really don't know..but what is the objective of leaders there or the greatest asset to having big numbers???  Do they win prize or something?  Do these people get on a list for General Authorities or something?

Okay, I'll tell you a story from my mission.  It doesn't involve number of baptisms but number of discussions.

You had to report your number of discussions in a weekly letter to the president.

In my district of four missionaries (all in the same apartment), the other two came up with a great idea.  Faced with the fact that when we went contacting people at the local train station, most Japanese people didn't have time to go sit down for a 20-minute first discussion, the missionaries decided to compact the first discussion into one minute.

Seriously.

So when faced with somebody who "didn't have the time," they would ask for just one minute.  They got a lot of takers with this approach.  So they would give them the grab-and-dash version of the First Vision and off the person would go to catch their train.

They started recording over 100 discussions per week in their letters to the president.

This became a big deal in the mission for a brief period of time.  They were celebrities.

While the amazement was still ongoing, I remember being at a zone conference and having another missionary approach me about this incredible record and say he had been crunching the numbers, and he just didn't see how it was physically possible to teach that many lessons in a one-week time frame.  His math was good, but I begged off saying he would have to ask the other companionship about it.

It didn't take long for the truth to come to light, and the president must have told them to knock it off.  (I still think it wasn't that bad an idea, personally.  Any CPR is better than no CPR.)

But this gives you some idea as to the heights of celebrity and recognition that come to missionaries with good numbers.

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

But this gives you some idea as to the heights of celebrity and recognition that come to missionaries with good numbers.

You negative types sure are obsessed with numbers.

[consiglieri]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

You negative types sure are obsessed with numbers.

The obsession with numbers continues after the mission to home teaching stats.

And a similar type of "creative reporting" applies there, as well.

 

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

The obsession with numbers continues after the mission to home teaching stats.

And a similar type of "creative reporting" applies there, as well.

I'm reminded of the time we were getting in so few doors that my companion set a goal to get 100 "mini-charlas" (door approaches). By Saturday evening as the sun was setting, we had 97, and then we started getting invited in. He was torn between wanting to teach and not reaching our goal.

[Analytics]

On 6/13/2016 at 11:14 AM, Jeanne said:

Question for you return missionaries old and young..because I really don't know..but what is the objective of leaders there or the greatest asset to having big numbers???  Do they win prize or something?  Do these people get on a list for General Authorities or something?

The stated objective of missionary work is to "bring people unto Christ through the waters of baptism."  The number of baptisms you get is the quantification of your success at the stated goal.

What you "get" for being successful depends upon the specific mission.  I had one mission president that would literally award a plaque every month to the missionaries that lead the mission in baptisms.  If you won a plaque, that would distinguish you as successful.  Another mission president sent out a newsletter every month that prominently recognized the companionship, district, and zone that had the most baptisms.  If your name was on that list, you were practically guaranteed to be promoted to a leadership position so you could train others on how to get it done.

And so it goes up the chain.  The apostles want to know which mission presidents are good candidates to become new general authorities.  If a mission president leads a mission with lots of baptisms, that identifies him as successful and makes him a candidate for higher positions.  Of course you aren't supposed to want or strive for leadership positions, but doing so is quite natural to many people in this American church.  The Church is run by business leaders who manage the mission activities the way a corporation would manage a sales team.  It's all about setting and hitting goals.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Analytics

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Analytics said:

The stated objective of missionary work is to "bring people unto Christ through the waters of baptism."  The number of baptisms you get is the quantification of your success at the stated goal.

What you "get" for being successful depends upon the specific mission.  I had one mission president that would literally award a plaque every month to the missionaries that lead the mission in baptisms.  If you won a plaque, that would distinguish you as successful.  Another mission president sent out a newsletter every month that prominently recognized the companionship, district, and zone that had the most baptisms.  If your name was on that list, you were practically guaranteed to be promoted to a leadership position so you could train others on how to get it done.

And so it goes up the chain.  The apostles want to know which mission presidents are good candidates to become new general authorities.  If a mission president leads a mission with lots of baptisms that identifies him as successful and makes him a candidate for higher positions.  Of course you aren't supposed to want or strive for leadership positions, but doing so is quite natural to many people in this American church.  The Church is run by business leaders who manage the mission activities the way a corporation would manage a sales team.  It's all about setting and hitting goals.

Indeed. As I said, I don't think any mission president or missionary ever got in trouble for baptizing too much. Too little, yes.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

 

Is this person's view of the LDS Church's goals accurate?  

No

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

No

I had missed that post. Wow, talk about a distorted view of Mormonism. 

[Jeanne]

53 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Okay, I'll tell you a story from my mission.  It doesn't involve number of baptisms but number of discussions.

You had to report your number of discussions in a weekly letter to the president.

In my district of four missionaries (all in the same apartment), the other two came up with a great idea.  Faced with the fact that when we went contacting people at the local train station, most Japanese people didn't have time to go sit down for a 20-minute first discussion, the missionaries decided to compact the first discussion into one minute.

Seriously.

So when faced with somebody who "didn't have the time," they would ask for just one minute.  They got a lot of takers with this approach.  So they would give them the grab-and-dash version of the First Vision and off the person would go to catch their train.

They started recording over 100 discussions per week in their letters to the president.

This became a big deal in the mission for a brief period of time.  They were celebrities.

While the amazement was still ongoing, I remember being at a zone conference and having another missionary approach me about this incredible record and say he had been crunching the numbers, and he just didn't see how it was physically possible to teach that many lessons in a one-week time frame.  His math was good, but I begged off saying he would have to ask the other companionship about it.

It didn't take long for the truth to come to light, and the president must have told them to knock it off.  (I still think it wasn't that bad an idea, personally.  Any CPR is better than no CPR.)

But this gives you some idea as to the heights of celebrity and recognition that come to missionaries with good numbers.

Thanks for your teply and sharing your experience.  So..it is wrong kinda..but they didn't specify how long the discusssions had to be..  I wonder if anyone ater one minute decided to investigate..and would love to know what they compacted in that one minute. 

[Jeanne]

26 minutes ago, Analytics said:

The stated objective of missionary work is to "bring people unto Christ through the waters of baptism."  The number of baptisms you get is the quantification of your success at the stated goal.

What you "get" for being successful depends upon the specific mission.  I had one mission president that would literally award a plaque every month to the missionaries that lead the mission in baptisms.  If you won a plaque, that would distinguish you as successful.  Another mission president sent out a newsletter every month that prominently recognized the companionship, district, and zone that had the most baptisms.  If your name was on that list, you were practically guaranteed to be promoted to a leadership position so you could train others on how to get it done.

And so it goes up the chain.  The apostles want to know which mission presidents are good candidates to become new general authorities.  If a mission president leads a mission with lots of baptisms, that identifies him as successful and makes him a candidate for higher positions.  Of course you aren't supposed to want or strive for leadership positions, but doing so is quite natural to many people in this American church.  The Church is run by business leaders who manage the mission activities the way a corporation would manage a sales team.  It's all about setting and hitting goals.

Thanks...at least there is something to bring about some initiative. Seems like a lot of things are run like a business.  When you look at GA's they are prominent in a field that are selective in the needs of the church as a corporation

[Ahab]

6 hours ago, sjdawg said:

I don't consider myself a member of the church but I have never had my name removed from the records.  I don't see the point and can't be bothered to write the letter.

Whether or not you think of yourself as a member of the Church, you are a member if you have at any time in the past become a member and you have not been removed from the Church rolls of membership. 

I suggest you remain a member for whatever good benefit it may ever be to you. Otherwise you will not get any benefit for being a member. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

I'm sure I'll be corrected if things have changed, but 25 years ago each mission area had a little book called something like, "Area Baptism Records," filled with carbonless forms, each about 4" x 8" in size.  In addition to the basic demographic information and signature of the person being baptized, you needed two signatures--one from a missionary that gave the lessons, and one from the missionary that conducted the baptismal interview.  After it was signed, one copy of the record stays in the book, and the other two go up the chain to the mission office.

They can call anything they want a "requirement" but at the end of the day, the baptism is official and everybody gets credit for it as long as the forms get filled out and signed.  So answering your question, there only needs to be four people in on it for a "scam" like this to work: the two missionaries that get credit for the baptism, the DL (or ZL) that does the interview, and the DL's or ZL's companion.

I'm sure the missionaries have their own spin on things, but I bet the essential facts of the story are true.

I'm wondering if I had a bad memory,  thing were different in my mission,  they didn't have sisters sign this or what.  I don't ever remember signing one of those.  I'll have to ask my former companions.  It very well could be a bad memory. 

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Thanks for your teply and sharing your experience.  So..it is wrong kinda..but they didn't specify how long the discusssions had to be..  I wonder if anyone ater one minute decided to investigate..and would love to know what they compacted in that one minute. 

To my knowledge, none of the one-minute lesson recipients continued with the discussions.

But when the goal is to get discussions, you will get discussions.

I have to add, though, that I was unaware of any hijinks with baptism numbers in my mission.

Osaka, Japan 1979-81.

[jkwilliams]

24 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

To my knowledge, none of the one-minute lesson recipients continued with the discussions.

But when the goal is to get discussions, you will get discussions.

I have to add, though, that I was unaware of any hijinks with baptism numbers in my mission.

Osaka, Japan 1979-81.

I think my mission more than made up for yours in hijinks. 

Bolivia Cochabamba 1984-86

[Ahab]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So you support all the methods mentioned in this thread to get people baptized?

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say I support ALL of the methods mentioned in this thread regarding doing whatever it takes to get people baptized as members. 

I do support offering chips, soda and cookies to people who choose to get baptized into the Church, though.  

Maybe undressing before putting on a robe to get baptized should be considered optional.

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Maybe undressing before putting on a robe to get baptized should be considered optional.

So a person being baptized would put on a white robe over their street clothes and then be baptized?  Those clothes would be pretty wet.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So a person being baptized would put on a white robe over their street clothes and then be baptized?  Those clothes would be pretty wet.

Yeah.  So, yeah, that could be an option. 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So a person being baptized would put on a white robe over their street clothes and then be baptized?  Those clothes would be pretty wet.

The white robe thing is one of the elements that make this whole scenario sound beyond bizarre.

I know this is the sort of thing bound to bring forth the urban legends of yore, but I'm for taking a wait-and-see stance.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

The white robe thing is one of the elements that make this whole scenario sound beyond bizarre.

I know this is the sort of thing bound to bring forth the urban legends of yore, but I'm for taking a wait-and-see stance.

I can easily see how a child could be handed one of those white jumpsuits and mistake it for a robe. Either way, "bata" also means "lab coat," "coverall," or "housecoat." 

[The Nehor]

24 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say I support ALL of the methods mentioned in this thread regarding doing whatever it takes to get people baptized as members. 

I do support offering chips, soda and cookies to people who choose to get baptized into the Church, though.  

Maybe undressing before putting on a robe to get baptized should be considered optional.

So you are bribe people into baptism with food. Also, we do not usually wear robes so why would we need that option?

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I can easily see how a child could be handed one of those white jumpsuits and mistake it for a robe. Either way, "bata" also means "lab coat," "coverall," or "housecoat." 

Jumpsuits are basically coveralls without regular clothing underneath so it might be a translation issue.  

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So you are bribe people into baptism with food. 

I think Ahab is just suggesting we be nice to fellow members and soon to be members of the Church and share our food and other resources, not to use food as a bribe or part of the process of persuasion. I hope he corrects me if I am wrong.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Jumpsuits are basically coveralls without regular clothing underneath so it might be a translation issue.  

That's what I was thinking. Besides, these were young children who obviously didn't know what was happening, so there was lots of room for misunderstanding. 

[jkwilliams]

According to the Salt Lake Tribune, this was indeed a case of missionaries trying to baptize kids without parental consent. 

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3996349-155/4-lds-missionaries-detained-after-father

Quote

[Police Commander César] Estrada Ruiz said he had spoken with a local representative from the church who told him the missionaries had failed to communicate with their leaders about the baptism, and that baptizing children requires parental permission. He added that the representative told him that the missionaries would be taken out of the area.