Ahab Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 1 minute ago, Calm said: I think Ahab is just suggesting we be nice to fellow members and soon to be members of the Church and share our food and other resources, not to use food as a bribe or part of the process of persuasion. I hope he corrects me if I am wrong. Eh, if it is seen as a bribe, so be it. Personally I'd see it more as a reward than a bribe, but since I know some people in the Church who make some really good cookies, and I also really like some kinds of chips, and sodas too, I would not be adverse to the idea of people saying they were trying to bribe me into joining the Church to partake of all the good stuff they would give me if I joined them, or otherwise participated in the baptizing.
The Nehor Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 6 minutes ago, Ahab said: Eh, if it is seen as a bribe, so be it. Personally I'd see it more as a reward than a bribe, but since I know some people in the Church who make some really good cookies, and I also really like some kinds of chips, and sodas too, I would not be adverse to the idea of people saying they were trying to bribe me into joining the Church to partake of all the good stuff they would give me if I joined them, or otherwise participated in the baptizing. 😳 4 minutes ago, Ahab said: Clothing optional, then. How about that? Or whatever kind of clothing people wanted to wear while being baptized, or baptizing. I see no good reason to limit good options. 😱
jkwilliams Posted June 14, 2016 Author Posted June 14, 2016 3 minutes ago, The Nehor said: 😳 😱 I am now thoroughly creeped out. Glad to see I'm not the only one.
consiglieri Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: I think my mission more than made up for yours in hijinks. Bolivia Cochabamba 1984-86 I won't even mention the fun we had with year-round fireworks in Japan . . .
gopher Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 I think it may be more difficult to "scam" convert baptisms now then when you old timers were missionaries. The WML sets up the baptismal service under the direction of the Bishop and usually conducts the meeting. Converts are not confirmed at the baptismal service, but confirmed at the next Sacrament meeting with a member of the bishopric participating in the ordinance. The missionaries give the Baptism and Confirmation Record to the Bishop (or clerk) to fill out the confirmation section. Bishops, WMLs and the Stake Presidency meet quarterly with the Mission President, zone leaders, and sister training leaders to review recent progress. It would be difficult to get away with some of the stuff discussed in this thread today unless you also have members involved too. But I'm sure there are some missionaries that still find creative ways to increase their numbers. Also, isn't the word "arrested" a bit of a stretch in the title? The missionaries were briefly detained and released when it was determined no crime was committed. Not even the SLTribune used the word "arrested". But it made for good clickbait. 2
gopher Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 3 hours ago, Analytics said: The stated objective of missionary work is to "bring people unto Christ through the waters of baptism." The number of baptisms you get is the quantification of your success at the stated goal. What you "get" for being successful depends upon the specific mission. I had one mission president that would literally award a plaque every month to the missionaries that lead the mission in baptisms. If you won a plaque, that would distinguish you as successful. Another mission president sent out a newsletter every month that prominently recognized the companionship, district, and zone that had the most baptisms. If your name was on that list, you were practically guaranteed to be promoted to a leadership position so you could train others on how to get it done. And so it goes up the chain. The apostles want to know which mission presidents are good candidates to become new general authorities. If a mission president leads a mission with lots of baptisms, that identifies him as successful and makes him a candidate for higher positions. Of course you aren't supposed to want or strive for leadership positions, but doing so is quite natural to many people in this American church. The Church is run by business leaders who manage the mission activities the way a corporation would manage a sales team. It's all about setting and hitting goals. One big difference with the corporate world - missionaries don't get fired when they don't hit their numbers.
Analytics Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Rain said: I'm wondering if I had a bad memory, thing were different in my mission, they didn't have sisters sign this or what. I don't ever remember signing one of those. I'll have to ask my former companions. It very well could be a bad memory. The forms are called "baptism records." Did you have many baptisms? It would have been filled out during the baptismal interview with the district leader. Once some sisters in my zone had a baptism, and the zone leader changed the name on the form so that he personally got credit for the baptism rather than the sisters. His justification for doing this was since sisters couldn't progress up the priesthood hierarchy anyway, their baptisms were wasted. It's better that the credit goes to somebody who could use it.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: According to the Salt Lake Tribune, this was indeed a case of missionaries trying to baptize kids without parental consent. http://www.sltrib.com/home/3996349-155/4-lds-missionaries-detained-after-father So from the quote, it would appear this is an anomalous case of some bone-headed maverick missionaries going off the rails, not a chronic or systemic problem, as has been repeatedly insinuated throughout this thread.
jkwilliams Posted June 14, 2016 Author Posted June 14, 2016 16 minutes ago, gopher said: I think it may be more difficult to "scam" convert baptisms now then when you old timers were missionaries. The WML sets up the baptismal service under the direction of the Bishop and usually conducts the meeting. Converts are not confirmed at the baptismal service, but confirmed at the next Sacrament meeting with a member of the bishopric participating in the ordinance. The missionaries give the Baptism and Confirmation Record to the Bishop (or clerk) to fill out the confirmation section. Bishops, WMLs and the Stake Presidency meet quarterly with the Mission President, zone leaders, and sister training leaders to review recent progress. It would be difficult to get away with some of the stuff discussed in this thread today unless you also have members involved too. But I'm sure there are some missionaries that still find creative ways to increase their numbers. Also, isn't the word "arrested" a bit of a stretch in the title? The missionaries were briefly detained and released when it was determined no crime was committed. Not even the SLTribune used the word "arrested". But it made for good clickbait. It wasn't meant as click bait or to sensationalize. But you're right that it would have been more accurate to say they were detained by the police. Be that as it may, I still think it's obvious what they were doing. I don't think it's a valid assumption that every church unit follows the rules exactly the way they do in Utah, so I doubt it would have been all that difficult. I would be surprised if this is the first time these missionaries had done something like that.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 Quote The news traveled fast on the internet, Estrada Ruiz said, and members of the community seemed bothered by what had happened. He said police officers planned on going to Sunday church services to ensure that members of the LDS Church would not be harassed. 'Twould be an ironic twist of fate if the police officers attending the Church services ended up becoming interested enough to take missionary lessons and be baptized themselves. It was also interesting to me that the offending elders were from other states in Mexico -- so it's not a case of Mormons being "ugly Americans" as has apparently been the case with the urban legend accounts that have abounded on this thread.
jkwilliams Posted June 14, 2016 Author Posted June 14, 2016 9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: So from the quote, it would appear this is an anomalous case of some bone-headed maverick missionaries going off the rails, not a chronic or systemic problem, as has been repeatedly insinuated throughout this thread. What suggests it is anomalous? It wasn't anomalous it my mission and others' missions. These guys just got caught.
Jeanne Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: To my knowledge, none of the one-minute lesson recipients continued with the discussions. But when the goal is to get discussions, you will get discussions. I have to add, though, that I was unaware of any hijinks with baptism numbers in my mission. Osaka, Japan 1979-81. I have a classmate that went to Japan at that time and said their were a lot of casting out devils..did you run into that? His name was Robert Sagers.
Jim Stiles Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Of course they don't. The Calvinist God who's done the electing clearly loves some of his children more than He loves others... No, only those He elects to salvation are His children. Quote John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) 14 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: What suggests it is anomalous? It wasn't anomalous it my mission and others' missions. These guys just got caught. This quote suggests its anomalous: Quote Estrada Ruiz said he had spoken with a local representative from the church who told him the missionaries had failed to communicate with their leaders about the baptism, and that baptizing children requires parental permission. He added that the representative told him that the missionaries would be taken out of the area. It was as I said: They weren't following procedure, they had violated the rules, they were being removed from the area as a result of their errant actions. That certainly suggests an anomaly to me. And nothing even remotely like what you've recounted ever occurred in my mission, nor have I ever heard of anything like it up until now. I have no reason to accept that this is business as usual for missionaries. Also, there is this: Quote LDS Church spokesman Eric Hawkins did not have a comment Saturday, noting that it would take some time for him to contact local church leaders to hear their side of the matter. So it is good to bear in mind that there may yet be more here than meets the eye. Edited June 14, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Jim Stiles Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 4 hours ago, jkwilliams said: I had missed that post. Wow, talk about a distorted view of Mormonism. Well, if the desire is not to make the entire world Mormon, then why the emphasis on baptism numbers?
jkwilliams Posted June 14, 2016 Author Posted June 14, 2016 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: This quote suggests its anomalous: It was as I said: They weren't following procedure, they had violated the rules, they were being removed from the area as a result of their errant actions. That certainly suggests an anomaly to me. And nothing even remotely like what you've recounted ever occurred in my mission. I know it's against the rules. It was in my mission, but it happened a lot.
Jim Stiles Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 4 hours ago, Calm said: No You would do good to describe the LDS Church's goals, then instead of just posting "No" anytime I post a link to an former Mormon's or Sunstone Mormon's blog.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I know it's against the rules. It was in my mission, but it happened a lot. Did you report it when you encountered it happening? Or did you never actually encounter it personally but only heard of it?
gopher Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 29 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: It wasn't meant as click bait or to sensationalize. But you're right that it would have been more accurate to say they were detained by the police. Be that as it may, I still think it's obvious what they were doing. I don't think it's a valid assumption that every church unit follows the rules exactly the way they do in Utah, so I doubt it would have been all that difficult. I would be surprised if this is the first time these missionaries had done something like that. If the story is true, what the missionaries attempted to do was very stupid. It's very clearly stated in the Preach My Gospel handbook to get permission from parents (preferably written) before baptizing children. Hopefully the word will get out and discourage other missionaries from trying to do something similar.
jkwilliams Posted June 14, 2016 Author Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Did you report it when you encountered it happening? Or did you never actually encounter it personally but only heard of it? I did. As I mentioned I was the DL when that missionary had the 27 "volleyball baps." I told the ZLs, and they didn't care. Edited June 14, 2016 by jkwilliams
jkwilliams Posted June 14, 2016 Author Posted June 14, 2016 3 minutes ago, gopher said: If the story is true, what the missionaries attempted to do was very stupid. It's very clearly stated in the Preach My Gospel handbook to get permission from parents (preferably written) before baptizing children. Hopefully the word will get out and discourage other missionaries from trying to do something similar. That rule was in place in my mission, too.
UtahTexan Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 12 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: High inactives indicate that the LDS Church has been less than completely honest about their numbers. No. It means there are inactives. That is not being dishonest. If your father wanted off the rolls, all he had to do was ask, like I did. Your comment is you being dishonest. 4
mapman Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, gopher said: I think it may be more difficult to "scam" convert baptisms now then when you old timers were missionaries. The WML sets up the baptismal service under the direction of the Bishop and usually conducts the meeting. Converts are not confirmed at the baptismal service, but confirmed at the next Sacrament meeting with a member of the bishopric participating in the ordinance. The missionaries give the Baptism and Confirmation Record to the Bishop (or clerk) to fill out the confirmation section. Bishops, WMLs and the Stake Presidency meet quarterly with the Mission President, zone leaders, and sister training leaders to review recent progress. It would be difficult to get away with some of the stuff discussed in this thread today unless you also have members involved too. But I'm sure there are some missionaries that still find creative ways to increase their numbers. Also, isn't the word "arrested" a bit of a stretch in the title? The missionaries were briefly detained and released when it was determined no crime was committed. Not even the SLTribune used the word "arrested". But it made for good clickbait. It is true that this is the way it is supposed to work. In my experience (it sounds like others' experiences have varied) missionaries are able to take advantage of members not understanding church policies and procedures. My last area was a small town with few members, most of them recent converts, who as a whole had little idea how a branch was actually supposed to function. The entire history of the branch (about 10 years) they were accustomed to not following the correct procedures. Apparently some missionaries find this situation very tempting and take advantage of the situation. My zone leaders didn't care about following the church's policies with things like ensuring that they follow the word of wisdom, attend church a few times, have a baptismal interview by someone other than the missionaries baptizing, etc. The members didn't understand nor care either. The only reason things got any better was because me and my companion cared and I told my mission president what was happening. My zone leaders managed to get more baptisms than the other zones in the mission the transfer before I got there because they had went and baptized a guy they had met earlier in the day on the last day of the transfer. I found it despicable and a mockery of sacred things, but it was something that happened. It still makes me angry when I think about it. Some people just aren't in the mission field for the right reasons I guess. Edited June 14, 2016 by mapman 1
The Nehor Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 26 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: Well, if the desire is not to make the entire world Mormon, then why the emphasis on baptism numbers? To bring as many people happiness as possible. 2
jkwilliams Posted June 14, 2016 Author Posted June 14, 2016 58 minutes ago, Analytics said: The forms are called "baptism records." Did you have many baptisms? It would have been filled out during the baptismal interview with the district leader. Once some sisters in my zone had a baptism, and the zone leader changed the name on the form so that he personally got credit for the baptism rather than the sisters. His justification for doing this was since sisters couldn't progress up the priesthood hierarchy anyway, their baptisms were wasted. It's better that the credit goes to somebody who could use it. My wife and her companion were welfare missionaries assigned to our district. One of their contacts in the regional agriculture office requested that they teach him the discussions. My companion performed the baptism. It was all by the book, but the ZLs were livid and accused the sisters of "poaching" because the man lived within the ZLs' branch boundaries.
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