Hamba Tuhan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Either way, I am not complaining about it, just noting that what these Mexican missionaries did is not unusual. How that turned into a referendum on my mission is unclear to me. I think the 'problem' is that -- thankfully! -- so few of us can relate to what you've described, suggesting that though this behaviour is probably not unique, it may well be -- again, thankfully! -- genuinely 'unusual'. 2
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: By the mission president? By other missionaries? Just trying to understand better what was happening. By the mission president, in the monthly newsletter, mostly. Even if they hadn't, I don't think I could have told my mom the truth about no running water, parasites, worms, bitter cold, and so on. So it was definitely at least partly self-censorship.
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 Just now, Hamba Tuhan said: I think the 'problem' is that -- thankfully! -- so few of us can relate to what you've described, suggesting that though this behaviour is probably not unique, it may well be -- again, thankfully! -- genuinely 'unusual'. I hope so, but I note that others here and elsewhere had similar experiences.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: How is it our problem if you don't care about the last sheep of your church? I'm happy to be corrected, but from what I've read from Jim over the past 12 hours or so, he doesn't need to worry about 'lost sheep' since, if they're lost, then clearly God has elected them for destruction, so worrying would be pointless. Edited June 15, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan
ttribe Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 57 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: I kept such things. I still have a copy of the letter I sent to Stake asking for my name to be removed...from 1989. So...yes. I would. You are an outlier. Expecting others to have done the same is unreasonable. 2
ttribe Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 30 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I don't feel bad about what I did. I reported it as I should have, and when I was DL and ZL I didn't approve anyone I didn't think was ready. Either way, I am not complaining about it, just noting that what these Mexican missionaries did is not unusual. How that turned into a referendum on my mission is unclear to me. I'll give you two guesses....
UtahTexan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, ttribe said: You are an outlier. Expecting others to have done the same is unreasonable. really? something soooo important about something sooooo bad? Naaa...maybe smarter....but not an utlier
ttribe Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, CountryBoy said: really? something soooo important about something sooooo bad? Naaa...maybe smarter....but not an utlier Since I'm quite sure (based on my observations on this board) you are unlikely to engage in honest self-assessment as a result of an external observation, I'll just leave you to happily believing that.
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, ttribe said: You are an outlier. Expecting others to have done the same is unreasonable. It wouldn't have occurred to me to make a handwritten copy (the only option). What would have occurred to me would be to write it in my journal, which I did.
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, ttribe said: I'll give you two guesses.... Yeah, I know. It's kind of funny how it worked out.
UtahTexan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, ttribe said: Since I'm quite sure (based on my observations on this board) you are unlikely to engage in honest self-assessment as a result of an external observation, I'll just leave you to happily believing that. lol....fact is fact...so...I will be here happily believing fact. Thanks!
Rain Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 29 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I don't think that's fair, Scott. I have no way of knowing how other missionaries in my mission would have handled what has been described in this thread. I'm glad I'd been taught what to do, but that doesn't mean everyone was, and it certainly doesn't mean that everyone would have figured out how to apply the teaching in a situation that, frankly, would have left me feeling spiritual and emotional vertigo. I may not have even known what to do at first. I'm still occasionally caught out by such things, and I'm much older and more experienced now. What this should highlight for all of us is, as my dad taught, that getting things wrong in the Church hurts everyone involved. One more reason why I proudly wear the badge of 'Handbook Nazi' in my ward. I agree. When I was young I used to think of missionaries as so mature and spiritual. Now that I am a parent of children of this age I am amazed at what they can accomplish with the little experience and knowledge they have. When I look at my 3 children I can see each of them handling what happened in these missions in very different ways and I know I would handle it very differently now than I would have when I was on my mission. It's interesting to me now how different I have felt about things as a missionary back then and a ward missionary and wife of a ward mission just awhile ago. While I didn't want to rush people to baptism then I was worried about them taking too long. Now I'm worried about investigators taking too short. 1
Calm Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 20 minutes ago, CountryBoy said: really? something soooo important about something sooooo bad? Naaa...maybe smarter....but not an utlier I dump all papers after 10 years unless it could come back to bite me save for blessings and medical info. There is no way I would have even taken this home from the mission as it would have no longer been my stewardship. Edited June 15, 2016 by Calm 2
UtahTexan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Calm said: I dump all papers after 10 years unless it could come back to bite me save for blessings. There is no way I would have even taken this home from the mission as it would have no longer been my stewardship. I do not keep everything...but important stuff like complaints and about important things I do. I never know when I might need them OR need to remember what I said for whatever reason. I kept copies of my mission reports...statistics, even my kidney stone I passed in third area. Mainly because I was so surprised at how small it was because it caused sooooooo much pain Edited June 15, 2016 by CountryBoy
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Rain said: I agree. When I was young I used to think of missionaries as so mature and spiritual. Now that I am a parent of children of this age I am amazed at what they can accomplish with the little experience and knowledge they have. When I look at my 3 children I can see each of them handling what happened in these missions in very different ways and I know I would handle it very differently now than I would have when I was on my mission. It's interesting to me now how different I have felt about things as a missionary back then and a ward missionary and wife of a ward mission just awhile ago. While I didn't want to rush people to baptism then I was worried about them taking too long. Now I'm worried about investigators taking too short. Yep, I would have done things differently now, but as a dumb kid, all I could think of was to report it to my zone leaders and mission president. That nothing came of it made me think I was overreacting. I'm not really sure what I could have differently. I didn't have access to a phone, and I wouldn't have known how to get the address of the area president in Brazil. I suppose I could have written to church headquarters, but that never crossed my mind. 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Rain said: Now that I am a parent of children of this age I am amazed at what they can accomplish with the little experience and knowledge they have. Amen! As ward mission leader, it is my privilege to work at any given time with six young men and young women, and I'm repeatedly amazed by what good they pull off -- and with such grace and goodness -- despite their youth, inexperience and, in many cases, genuine goofiness. The Lord wasn't joking when He stated, repeatedly, that he would confound the wise by means of the weak and the foolish. How I love our full-time missionaries ... and, when this is the case,* the good families that willingly and cheerfully lend them to us for a season! ------ *We currently have an Elder serving in our ward who has been a member for only 18 months. His mum vehemently opposed his conversion and his decision to serve a mission, and she has unfortunately continued to make it hard for him to serve. I emailed her when he first arrived in our ward to share a photo and tell her how grateful I am for her son. No response. Edited June 15, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Yep, I would have done things differently now, but as a dumb kid, all I could think of was to report it to my zone leaders and mission president. That nothing came of it made me think I was overreacting. That makes sense, too. When craziness seems to be accepted by everyone as normal, it has a real effect on one's ability to think straight. 2
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, Calm said: I dump all papers after 10 years unless it could come back to bite me save for blessings and medical info. There is no way I would have even taken this home from the mission as it would have no longer been my stewardship. Would you have made a handwritten copy, as I'm told would be the normal response in such a situation? I wouldn't have.
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Amen! As ward mission leader, it is my privilege to work at any given time with six young men and young women, and I'm repeatedly amazed by what good they pull off -- and with such grace and goodness -- despite their youth, inexperience and, in many cases, genuine goofiness. The Lord wasn't joking when He stated, repeatedly, that he would confound the wise by means of the weak and the foolish. How I love our full-time missionaries ... and, when this is the case,* the good families that willingly and cheerfully lend them to us for a season! ------ *We currently had an Elder serving in our ward who has been a member for only 18 months. His mum vehemently opposed his conversion and his decision to serve a mission, and she has unfortunately continued to make it hard for him to serve. I emailed her when he first arrived in our ward to share a photo and tell her how grateful I am for her son. No response. :/ We have the missionaries over for dinner regularly, at least once a month. We always enjoy having them over, although on a couple of occasions they have made awkward attempts to guilt me into going to church. But I do have a soft spot for them. Some of these younger ones seem awfully and unprepared to be on their own, so we try to make them feel safe and welcome.
Calm Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 12 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Would you have made a handwritten copy, as I'm told would be the normal response in such a situation? I wouldn't have. Not when I was that age, but these days I know better and keep copies of everything that involves communication where miscommunication may cause significant issues. 1
JAHS Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 Speaking of keeping things. Austria (72-73). We barely made 100 baptisms in 1972. They were quality baptisms though. Some missionaries never baptized.
flameburns623 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 1 hour ago, ttribe said: It stands for "That So-Called Church." It's a rather rude expression thrown around as a rhetorical barb. BTW, you can safely ignore Stiles. His grasp of the substantive issues at hand are shallow, at best. Mostly, he seems to flit around here from time-to-time in an effort to make himself feel like he's a great evangelist and is doing something to save all those "lost" Mormons. I figured it was demeaning. Thanks. 1
Monster Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 How about we stop baptizing children altogether unless the parents get baptized first. These kiddie baptisms are blight on the whole missionary program.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Monster said: How about we stop baptizing children altogether unless the parents get baptized first. These kiddie baptisms are blight on the whole missionary program. I have never in my life seen what most people would consider a 'child' baptised without her/his parents. I have seen young men and young women who have made the decision and been allowed by their parents to pursue it, and we have at least a dozen adult members of our ward who I know were baptised in their teens, including my favourite bishop ever. 3
JAHS Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 Apparently the four missionaries have been corrected and reassigned: SALT LAKE CITY — Four Mormon missionaries serving in the Mexican state of Chihuahua have been reassigned elsewhere in the country after trying to baptize three boys without their parents' approval. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not allow teaching or baptism of minors without permission of a parent or legal guardian. Church spokesman Eric Hawkins says the missionaries unfortunately acted outside church policy and have been corrected. The Salt Lake Tribune reports (http://bit.ly/1VXsI2Q) the four missionaries attempted to baptize a 9-year-old and two 11-year-olds in a church last week. The missionaries were briefly detained by police after the boys became afraid and told their parents what happened. Police said the four male missionaries were released after several hours because they had not committed a crime. Four Mormon missionaries serving in the Mexican state of Chihuahua have been reassigned
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