Missionaries detained by police

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

jkwilliams is portarying his mission experience has having had little or not one-on-one contact with the mission president and having his letters screened so he could never be sure they were getting through.

I have to say that strikes me as very odd.

In my mission, one could expect to be interviewed personally and in private several times by the mission president: once upon arrival, once just before departure for home, and once during each and every zone conference, which were held frequently.

This was the case with each of my mission presidents, and I had three, as one went home about a year after I arrived, and the mission was divided just before I went home and I ended up in the new mission.

 

We had over 200 missionaries in an area the size of Texas and Oregon combined. I served in one area where no visitors above the district level had been there in 7 years. We had a telephone only when I worked in the mission office. 

I arrived the first week of March, and the first zone conference I attended was in August, after the new mp arrived. We had a zone conference in October. We had one zone conference in Cochabamba during the six months I served in the office, but none during the 4 months I was in La Paz. The last 4 months we were in the far north, so we had contact with the mission only by letter until I went home. The conference in Cochabamba was the only time I saw a general authority, our area president, Elder Howard.

Maybe my mission wasn't typical, but that is how it was. 

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, toon said:

Wow.  Just wow.  You really are a piece of work!

Ah, shucks. I'm not all that, but thanks just the same.

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The only reason I'm making an issue of it is that you appear to be joining in with others in making blanket system-wide criticisms of the missionary organization in the Church based on your own mission experience. I just find that odd behavior if one personally observed irregularities, had opportunities to bring them to light and didn't avail himself of such opportunities.

In concept, I don't excuse making ridiculous requirements. But had the mission president not been kept in the dark, perhaps he would have set more realisitic expectations.

I don't believe he was kept in the dark. I did my best, though obviously I wasn't as bold as you would have been in standing up against the numbers culture. I brought it up because that is how things worked in my mission. 

[flameburns623]

4 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said:

Hey, I know where Charles Town is:

http://www.journal-news.net/page/content.detail/id/632521/Appeals-court-to-hear-sexual-abuse-case.html?nav=5006

If someone does not attend church at all for a year or two, the assumption in real churches is that they no longer wish to be associated with that denomination, or with Christianity at all.  TSCC holds a cult-like grip on its former members with the hopes that they will someday start tithing again.

My wife has "membership records" in the little GARBC her mom raised her in, even though she never joined that church formally and hasn't attended since she was 18. (she's 46 now). 

What does "TSCC" stand for?

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

We had over 200 missionaries in an area the size of Texas and Oregon combined. I served in one area where no visitors above the district level had been there in 7 years. We had a telephone only when I worked in the mission office. 

I arrived the first week of March, and the first zone conference I attended was in August, after the new mp arrived. We had a zone conference in October. We had one zone conference in Cochabamba during the six months I served in the office, but none during the 4 months I was in La Paz. The last 4 months we were in the far north, so we had contact with the mission only by letter until I went home. The conference in Cochabamba was the only time I saw a general authority, our area president, Elder Howard.

Maybe my mission wasn't typical, but that is how it was. 

You say you served in the office.

I did too, for about the same length of time as you did. That put me in frequent, personal contact with the mission president, as such contact was necessary for me to carry out my office tasks.

You say baptism irregularities "happened a lot." During the time you were serving in the office, could you not have broached that subject with the president, just to make sure he was aware of what was going on?

By the way, my mission was sizable as well, the entire country of Sweden. For my last transfer, I had a 10-hour train ride, and that was only going from the center of the country down to the southern part.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You say you served in the office.

I did too, for about the same length of time as you did. That put me in frequent, personal contact with the mission president, as such contact was necessary for me to carry out my office tasks.

You say baptism irregularities "happened a lot." During the time you were serving in the office, could you not have broached that subject with the president, just to make sure he was aware of what was going on?

I was the travel and statistics secretary. I didn't personally witness any irregularities while I was in the office, so I doubt I would have thought to bring it up. My main interaction with him at that point was in arranging his travel around the mission. 

Of course, my point, which you haven't addressed, was the culture of numbers, which the new mission president embraced wholeheartedly. If there hadn't been such pressure to produce, no one would have cut corners. 

It was quite common for missionaries to baptize children, but rare to baptize adults or families. But most missionaries probably got parental permission. In the case of the volleyball baptisms, the children met the missionaries on a Tuesday, attended church on Sunday, and were baptized after church. I very much doubt the elders got permission from the families of all 27 kids. I reported it to the zone leaders and mission president, but obviously you would have pressed the issue where I did not.

Incidentally, when I went home, the mission president was running late, so he gave me a hug in lieu of an interview.

[UtahTexan]

2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Most churches in the United States will take you off their rolls, if you do not show up at church for a year or two.  People outside of the LDS church should take that into consideration when comparing the quoted statistics of the LDS church against the quoted statistics of other denominations.

Ah....so we should take YOUR advice?  You have already shown to not be trustworthy in your perceptions

[Hamba Tuhan]

If I had experienced even a fraction of what I've seen described in this thread, I would have been explaining the situation to my parents in my letters home -- I've re-read my letters to my parents, and they are brutally honest -- and begged them to get in contact with the area presidency, and they would have. About six years ago, we had a problem in our stake that I brought up to all three members of the stake presidency, and they dismissed my concerns. So I contacted the area presidency. At the next regional training meeting, the area president chose to train the stake presidents on this very issue. Problem solved.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

No, only those He elects to salvation are His children.

I see. Well, the God of Calvinism clearly loves some of his creations more than he loves others, then.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

If I had experienced even a fraction of what I've seen described in this thread, I would have been explaining the situation to my parents in my letters home -- I've re-read my letters to my parents, and they are brutally honest -- and begged them to get in contact with the area presidency, and they would have. About six years ago, we had a problem in our stake that I brought up to all three members of the stake presidency, and they dismissed my concerns. So I contacted the area presidency. At the next regional training meeting, the area president chose to train the stake presidents on this very issue. Problem solved.

Apparently you were much stronger and mature than I was at 19. I lied in every letter I ever wrote home because I didn't want them to know how sick I was and how bad the living conditions were. I was relentlessly positive. 

How I wish I could have been like you and Scott. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

'Twould be an ironic twist of fate if the police officers attending the Church services ended up becoming interested enough to take missionary lessons and be baptized themselves.

 

That is kind of the police to go the extra mile.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

You would do good to describe the LDS Church's goals, then instead of just posting "No" anytime I post a link to an former Mormon's or Sunstone Mormon's blog.

You can easily find the goals on lds.org.

[ERayR]

1 hour ago, toon said:

Wow.  Just wow.  You really are a piece of work!

If you were one who witnessed this behavior and never reported it you are the " piece of work!"

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

jkwilliams is portraying his mission experience as his having had little or no one-on-one contact with the mission president and having his letters screened so he could never be sure they were getting through.

I have to say that strikes me as very odd.

In my mission, one could expect to be interviewed personally and in private several times by the mission president: once upon arrival, once just before departure for home, and once during each and every zone conference, which were held frequently. And we knew our letters were being read, as the president would often send back brief, handwritten memos to individual missionaries based on what he had read in the missionary's letter.

This was the case with each of my mission presidents, and I had three, as one went home about a year after I arrived, and the mission was divided just before I went home and I ended up in the new mission.

 

Newsflash for you, Scott! Not all missions are the same.  He served in Bolivia; a place which (at the time) had very little in the way of good infrastructure, means of communication, etc.  You served in Sweden (IIRC); a place with centuries of cultural and logistical sophistication.  What was even possible for the Mission President to do in your mission (such as attend every Zone Conference and interview each missionary) very likely wasn't possible to do in Bolivia.  Moreover, I believe you have at least 10 years on John, thus creating an additional variable you aren't accounting for in your assessment of the veracity of his claims about his own experiences.  Frankly, I think it's fine to talk about your mission as a counterpoint to the issues raised in this thread (for surely there is a ton of variation across missions), but it's not fine to use these counterpoints as the means to interrogate and undermine his credibility in an endless series of "but why didn't you do X?" statements.

Incidentally, I served in the U.S. from 91-93.  Did I ever encounter evidence of mass kiddie-baptisms where I was?  Nope.  But, it came as no surprise to hear returned missionaries who'd served in Central and South America talk about some of these things occurring.  Why was it no surprise to me?  Because you have a system of (at the time) 19-21 year-old young men (who are biologically predisposed toward bad judgment) feeling like a "successful mission" is measured primarily (solely?) in the number of baptisms.  Of course, someone, somewhere, will try to game the system.

Edited June 15, 2016 by ttribe

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ERayR said:

If you were one who witnessed this behavior and never reported it you are the " piece of work!"

As I said, I did report it. That apparently wasn't good enough. Every cut corner in my mission could have been avoided had a missionary 3 months in not taken no for an answer. 

[ERayR]

2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said:

Most churches in the United States will take you off their rolls, if you do not show up at church for a year or two.  People outside of the LDS church should take that into consideration when comparing the quoted statistics of the LDS church against the quoted statistics of other denominations.

AW! but The Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints is not most churches. 

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

My wife has "membership records" in the little GARBC her mom raised her in, even though she never joined that church formally and hasn't attended since she was 18. (she's 46 now). 

What does "TSCC" stand for?

It stands for "That So-Called Church."  It's a rather rude expression thrown around as a rhetorical barb.

BTW, you can safely ignore Stiles.  His grasp of the substantive issues at hand are shallow, at best.  Mostly, he seems to flit around here from time-to-time in an effort to make himself feel like he's a great evangelist and is doing something to save all those "lost" Mormons.

Edited June 15, 2016 by ttribe

[UtahTexan]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

As I said, I did report it. That apparently wasn't good enough. Every cut corner in my mission could have been avoided had a missionary 3 months in not taken no for an answer. 

Do you have proof you reported it?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, CountryBoy said:

Do you have proof you reported it?

I have my journal entry. Other than that, just my word. Clearly that doesn't count for much around here. 

But, this is just a deflection from my point: pressure to produce creates incentives for missionaries to cut corners. 

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

Do you have proof you reported it?

Oh, puhhhleeezzzeee.  Are you serious? He served his mission back in the 80s.  Why would you expect for him to hold on to such a thing for the last 30 years?

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

Apparently you were much stronger and mature than I was at 19.

I don't think it has anything to do with strength, John. I have no way of accessing your mind or experiences, only my own, but in my case I had grown up in a home where neither of my parents tolerated nonsense from other Church members -- motivated, in their cases, by an abiding love of the gospel. I can remember when I was a tiny boy going with my parents to their temple recommend interviews with the stake president. The ward Relief Society president had recently told the women that they could only visit-teach in skirts/dresses, and my mum told the stake president and asked him if that was in a handbook. No, he clarified, and rolled his eyes a bit. 'Please just do your visiting teaching', he said. And she always did. She passed away a few years ago, and we found an entire folder of certificates, year after year, for 100% visiting teaching. Her devotion to the Restored Church was second-to-none, and at the same time, she taught me what to do when local directives clash with actual gospel ideals.

I also remember my dad, who served with the bishopric from the time I was 5 till the time I was 15, coming home one time and venting about the plan to engage the Aaronic Priesthood quorums in what he called 'busy work'. It'll build character, the members of the bishopric had said. 'No', he'd told them; 'it'll only build resentment and possibly generate future doubts towards the divinity of the organisation or the sincerity of its leaders'. I learnt from him, too. Getting things wrong damages everyone in the Church, and it mustn't be allowed to happen.

When I left on my mission, they both demanded that I report everything to them without polish or censure, and I did. They'd told me that they'd know if I was lying, and I'm certain they would have. Thankfully, despite serving in two wards that had off-the-rails leaders, I had a mission president who simply and with dignity followed the actual instructions from SLC and required that we do the same. I can only imagine how damaged I might have been otherwise!

[Avatar4321]

20 hours ago, Tacenda said:

"Elders and Sisters, the Lord is with us always and will help our mission achieve the goal of 1000 baptisms this year. You are all doing so well. To achieve this goal, we must triple our progressing investigators. Daily contact is a huge part of that. We know that it works."

 

This quote was in my missionary son's Missionary Publication, I received by email back in 2010.  He served in the California Oakland San Francisco Mission.  Does 1000 per year baptisms seem high? 

The Lord can give as many converts as he want. President Woodruff baptized many more people on his mission

[ERayR]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

As I said, I did report it. That apparently wasn't good enough. Every cut corner in my mission could have been avoided had a missionary 3 months in not taken no for an answer. 

That post was not directed to you but was in answer but at another post. 

[UtahTexan]

2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Oh, puhhhleeezzzeee.  Are you serious? He served his mission back in the 80s.  Why would you expect for him to hold on to such a thing for the last 30 years?

I kept such things.  I still have a copy of the letter I sent to Stake asking for my name to be removed...from 1989.  So...yes.  I would.  

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't think it has anything to do with strength, John. I have no way of accessing your mind or experiences, only my own, but in my case I had grown up in a home where neither of my parents tolerated nonsense from other Church members -- motivated, in their cases, by an abiding love of the gospel. I can remember when I was a tiny boy going with my parents to their temple recommend interviews with the stake president. The ward Relief Society president had recently told the women that they could only visit-teach in skirts/dresses, and my mum told the stake president and asked him if that was in a handbook. No, he clarified, and rolled his eyes a bit. 'Please just do your visiting teaching', he said. And she always did. She passed away a few years ago, and we found an entire folder of certificates, year after year, for 100% visiting teaching. Her devotion to the Restored Church was second-to-none, and at the same time, she taught me what to do when local directives clash with actual gospel ideals.

I also remember my dad, who served with the bishopric from the time I was 5 till the time I was 15, coming home one time and venting about the plan to engage the Aaronic Priesthood quorums in what he called 'busy work'. It'll build character, the members of the bishopric had said. 'No', he'd told them; 'it'll only build resentment and possibly generate future doubts towards the divinity of the organisation or the sincerity of its leaders'. I learnt from him, too. Getting things wrong damages everyone in the Church, and it mustn't be allowed to happen.

When I left on my mission, they both demanded that I report everything to them without polish or censure, and I did. They'd told me that they'd know if I was lying, and I'm certain they would have. Thankfully, despite serving in two wards that had off-the-rails leaders, I had a mission president who simply and with dignity followed the actual instructions from SLC and required that we do the same. I can only imagine how damaged I might have been otherwise!

My dad found out I was sick (and weighed  114 lbs.) and was very angry that I hadn't been straight with them. We were told to always be positive and not give our families reason to worry. The only way to do both was to lie. I'm not proud of it, but I deliberately lied in pretty much every letter home.