consiglieri Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 11 hours ago, CountryBoy said: I do not keep everything...but important stuff like complaints and about important things I do. I never know when I might need them OR need to remember what I said for whatever reason. I kept copies of my mission reports...statistics, even my kidney stone I passed in third area. Mainly because I was so surprised at how small it was because it caused sooooooo much pain News flash, Country Boy. That was no kidney stone. That was your brain.
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 10 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I was stateside in the mid-90s and the type of activity described here happened, but it wasn't wide-spread it was in certain areas--inner city areas, we called them. And not all missionaries participated. It wasn't because of pressure. When I got transferred to one area, we were in the inner city branch. The branch had over 1100 on the roles and less that 50 that attended. MOst of those listed that we could find had no idea that they were on the records of the Church--having been baptized as young kids, quite often, or were at the time young kids (like under 12). They would describe missionaries as taking them to swimming pools and having a blast for a few weeks. Then they'd (the missionaries) would disappear. Other times addresses would be non existent. Meaning the address listed might be 213 East Sycamore. But when you went to find 213 East sycamore you'd find house number 211 and then 215. The names would often be made up, like Bikehandle MOlassses or something meaningless. I remember at one point we had accounted for each name on record save for a small handful. Went to the Branch President about what we determined and concerned he decided to just leave the records as they were. We were like, "of course Bikehandle Molasses at 213 East Sycamore is non existent, why not just drop it from the records". He was like, "it's more complicated than that". So after I left the next set of missionaries re-did what we did with the roster, or so they said. on the flip side this type of stuff was not tolerated in the suburban and rural areas, so it happened very rarely but I know there were some instances. I think these things are sort of self-perpetuating in some areas. Like me, you tried to make things better, but "the caravan moves on" and things just stay as they were. When you don't have a ward mission leader, it's a little silly to report to the mission president or bishop that the ward mission leader isn't fulfilling his calling. There's no excuse for faking baptisms, as you describe, though. But I don't think mass baptisms of children are any less unethical.
Avatar4321 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 15 hours ago, Rain said: So different than my mission. We had an individual interview in his office. I don't remember if it was that afternoon or the next morning. That night we slept at member's homes in the ward. The next morning we went to a testimony meeting where those going home spoke. Then our new companions took us to our area. We had regular in depth interviews with president and were requires to write a weekly report
ERayR Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 3 hours ago, jkwilliams said: No one shouted anyone down. Smac97 said what was described was "far from ordinary" and I and others replied that the practice of such "kiddie baptisms" was pretty common in our missions. You asked for a firsthand example, and I provided one. Rather than acknowledge I had given what you asked, you attacked my "hubris" for "complaining" about it now after not having gone over my mission president's head in reporting it back then. By all means, feel free to attack a naive 19 year old and the middle-aged man who looks back with regret, but it doesn't change what happened and apparently is still happening in some places. I would not attack the naive 19 year old, having been there myself, but would only suggest that the middle aged man has, perhaps, over reacted to the naive mistakes of the 19 year old. As a retrospective 74 year old I would urge you to begin a retrospective examination and put it all in perspective.
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Avatar4321 said: We had regular in depth interviews with president and were requires to write a weekly report When I was working in the office, I had a monthly interview with the mission president. Other than that, I remember having an interview when he came to La Paz in August, 1985, and then another interview in Tarija in early November. After I left the office, I think the only interview I had was when I flew to Cochabamba to send home a suicidal companion and the president wanted to make sure I was OK. That was the middle of July, and as far as I can remember, that was the last interview I had. I went home with a group of 18 missionaries, and I was one of the last scheduled to be interviewed, and the president was running late, so he just gave me a hug and told me he loved me.
Tacenda Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 I found this You Tube with Dr. Ted Lyon where he discusses the same problems discussed here. The second link I found it by accident while trying to find a transcript of Dr. Lyon's, for those unable to listen to the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzCcCacfnfU
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ERayR said: I would not attack the naive 19 year old, having been there myself, but would only suggest that the middle aged man has, perhaps, over reacted to the naive mistakes of the 19 year old. As a retrospective 74 year old I would urge you to begin a retrospective examination and put it all in perspective. I don't think I've overreacted. I did what I thought I should have done as a missionary: I reported it to the zone leaders verbally and in writing to the mission president. What I don't understand is this bizarre attempt to make what I did as a missionary the subject of attack as a way to deflect the conversation from the reality of these kinds of practices. My wife and I had a nice conversation last night about this incident (she was in my district when it happened). She agrees with me that I did what I should have done and have nothing to feel bad about. I think maybe I could have done something more, but honestly, I don't know what that would be. I asked her if she had thought to "report" what happened to the mission president, and she said no, that her focus was "bienestar," but had she been the district leader, she would have done exactly what I did. So, IMO, the only overreaction is coming from those who weren't there and who assume that everything in our mission worked the same way it does in fully functioning church units. Edited June 15, 2016 by jkwilliams
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I found this You Tube with Dr. Ted Lyon where he discusses the same problems discussed here. The second link I found it by accident while trying to find a transcript of Dr. Lyon's, for those unable to listen to the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzCcCacfnfU Yeah, I've seen that. Pretty appalling, what with the 2-hour baptisms. Things were bad in my mission, but not that bad. Loved this quote: "Missionaries who were pressured to baptize did what their mission president wanted them to do." Edited June 15, 2016 by jkwilliams
consiglieri Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 26 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Yeah, I've seen that. Pretty appalling, what with the 2-hour baptisms. Things were bad in my mission, but not that bad. Loved this quote: "Missionaries who were pressured to baptize did what their mission president wanted them to do." Here's the deal. Our mission president often set goals for the missionaries to baptize a certain number of people in a given month. We were to focus on the work and pray and fast and go all out to make this happen. The promise of the Lord through the mission president was that if we did our part, the baptisms would happen. When it didn't happen, in spite of my best efforts, the conclusion was obvious. I did something wrong. I was to blame. I didn't work hard enough. I wasn't good enough. No wonder I suffered from bouts of depression on my mission. I guess the other alternative is to get "creative" about your baptisms . . .
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Here's the deal. Our mission president often set goals for the missionaries to baptize a certain number of people in a given month. We were to focus on the work and pray and fast and go all out to make this happen. The promise of the Lord through the mission president was that if we did our part, the baptisms would happen. When it didn't happen, in spite of my best efforts, the conclusion was obvious. I did something wrong. I was to blame. I didn't work hard enough. I wasn't good enough. No wonder I suffered from bouts of depression on my mission. I guess the other alternative is to get "creative" about your baptisms . . . I can relate. We set weekly goals in front of everyone in our zone, so everyone knew if you weren't meeting your goals. You would do your best, but things didn't work out, and everyone knew you had "failed." So, you work and fast and pray, and next week you miss your goals, too. That's when you start thinking you're doing something wrong: you don't have the spirit, you're not humble enough, you're not working hard enough. I definitely felt like I was never good enough.
James Tunney Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Here's the deal. Our mission president often set goals for the missionaries to baptize a certain number of people in a given month. We were to focus on the work and pray and fast and go all out to make this happen. The promise of the Lord through the mission president was that if we did our part, the baptisms would happen. When it didn't happen, in spite of my best efforts, the conclusion was obvious. I did something wrong. I was to blame. I didn't work hard enough. I wasn't good enough. No wonder I suffered from bouts of depression on my mission. I guess the other alternative is to get "creative" about your baptisms . . . I hated the false claim that missionaries were to blame for a lack of "success" and the pressure to get numbers. I hated the mission experience for that reason even though I was one of the top baptizers in my mission down in S. America. There was always pressure to do more and I think it is too much to put on a 19-21 year old (now as young as 18). Looking back, that was a major factor in my wanting to leave the church.
Tacenda Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, James Tunney said: I hated the false claim that missionaries were to blame for a lack of "success" and the pressure to get numbers. I hated the mission experience for that reason even though I was one of the top baptizers in my mission down in S. America. There was always pressure to do more and I think it is too much to put on a 19-21 year old (now as young as 18). Looking back, that was a major factor in my wanting to leave the church. This negates the premise that the mission is for the missionary.
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 5 minutes ago, James Tunney said: I hated the false claim that missionaries were to blame for a lack of "success" and the pressure to get numbers. I hated the mission experience for that reason even though I was one of the top baptizers in my mission down in S. America. There was always pressure to do more and I think it is too much to put on a 19-21 year old (now as young as 18). Looking back, that was a major factor in my wanting to leave the church. I can't relate to people who say they didn't experience this kind of pressure to baptize on their missions, as I really have no frame of reference for it. I didn't hate the mission experience at all, but I very much disliked the numbers emphasis and the pressure to meet numeric goals. It's strange to have someone say we missionaries should have led from the bottom to change that pervasive culture. In my experience, missions don't work that way.
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 16 minutes ago, Tacenda said: This negates the premise that the mission is for the missionary. I always thought it ironic that our mission president came to Bolivia repeating that the only conversions he cared about were ours, and that if we were converted, the work would flourish. But about 9 months in or so, he attended a mission presidents' conference, and when he got back, it was all numbers, all the time. Makes me wonder what happened at that conference.
Rain Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: We had regular in depth interviews with president and were requires to write a weekly report We did as well. Also, as sisters, we at least once had an informal interview worth the mission president's wife when they came to our apartment. My companion and I just switched rooms and talked to the wife when one of us talked to the president. I do know things are different in different missions though. Worth transfers we all came to a central spot and switched out. In my husband's mission the mission van went around and would pick up the transferring companions and drop the new one off. I'm not exactly sure how that worked. In Elder Groberg's mission you can see contact with the MP wasn't nearly as much as I had. I know different times, but still the world is not all modern. Just a few years ago my FIL went back to his mission in Vanuatu. It makes all of us laugh that there was a miscommunication when FIL was taking a shower (done by Timothy pouring water over his head) and they ran short of water. (They also had no electricity). So FIL and Timothy walked to get more water from the water place and on the way Timothy bought more minutes for his cell phone. Things were done differently in that mission from mine as well. Edited June 15, 2016 by Rain
consiglieri Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 21 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I can't relate to people who say they didn't experience this kind of pressure to baptize on their missions, as I really have no frame of reference for it. I didn't hate the mission experience at all, but I very much disliked the numbers emphasis and the pressure to meet numeric goals. It's strange to have someone say we missionaries should have led from the bottom to change that pervasive culture. In my experience, missions don't work that way. I just got off the phone with a 70+ friend of mine who went to England on his mission back in the early 1960's. The exact same thing was happening over there. When he arrived at his mission, they were averaging 150 baptisms per month. Then a new mission president was called in to fix things with all the baseball baptisms that were going on. By the time my friend left, the average was down to 30 baptisms per month. I told him I must have been naïve to think that this sort of thing wasn't going on anymore. And then I realized I must be naïve to think this most recent incident is the only time it is happening now.
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 Just now, Rain said: We did as well. Also, as sisters, we at least once had an informal intererview worth the mission president's wife when they came to our apartment. My companion and I just switched rooms and talked to the wife when one of us talked to the president. I do know things are different in different missions though. Worth transfers we all came to a central spot and switched out. In my husband's mission the mission van went around and would pick up the transferring companions and drop the new one off. I'm not exactly sure how that worked. In Elder Groberg's mission you can see contact with the MP want nearly as much as I had. I know different times, but still the world is not all modern. Just a few years ago my FIL went back to his mission in Vanuatu. It makes all of us laugh that there was a miscommunication when FIL was taking a shower (done by Timothy pouring water over your head) and they ran short of water. (They also had no electricity). So FIL and Timothy walked to get more water from the water place and on the way Timothy bought more minutes for his cell phone. Things were done differently in that mission from mine as well. In our missions, transfers were usually by plane. My last transfer took all day and involved switching planes twice. And as far as I know, we never had apartment inspections. I don't think anyone other than my companion ever set foot in one of our apartments, other than the time period during which I was in the office and living with 5 others. I do remember the mission president and his wife coming over for a Christmas party at our house, but that was it.
James Tunney Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 13 minutes ago, Tacenda said: This negates the premise that the mission is for the missionary. In my case it certainly did. I still feel regret for pushing some into the water to get my numbers and the inevitable brushoff of the new member after baptism. I was simply too busy looking for the next victim to have any relationship with my converts post baptism. It made the whole experience too mechanical and impersonal. And to top it off, it was kind of a thankless job because the attitude of the mission program is like the employer/employee relationship. The employer doesn't want to give too much praise, if any, otherwise the employee may not continue to work as hard if there isn't the constant hunger to achieve more. Anyway, my point was driven home when I was fishing for a compliment from the G.A. in the ward who happened to be my home teacher at the time. When I told him of my supposed success, he kind of brushed it off by asking how many complete families did I baptize, knowing that complete families is more of a rarity. You know, no one should get to confident with themselves. 1
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, consiglieri said: I just got off the phone with a 70+ friend of mine who went to England on his mission back in the early 1960's. The exact same thing was happening over there. When he arrived at his mission, they were averaging 150 baptisms per month. Then a new mission president was called in to fix things with all the baseball baptisms that were going on. By the time my friend left, the average was down to 30 baptisms per month. I told him I must have been naïve to think that this sort of thing wasn't going on anymore. And then I realized I must be naïve to think this most recent incident is the only time it is happening now. Precisely. It beggars belief to assume that the practice is limited to the 4 missionaries who were caught. But, you know, hoping for some improvement is just exhibiting hubris and arrogance.
SteveO Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 41 minutes ago, James Tunney said: I hated the false claim that missionaries were to blame for a lack of "success" and the pressure to get numbers. I hated the mission experience for that reason even though I was one of the top baptizers in my mission down in S. America. There was always pressure to do more and I think it is too much to put on a 19-21 year old (now as young as 18). Looking back, that was a major factor in my wanting to leave the church. I know part of the reasons for the numbers is to keep missionaries accountable. But raising numbers isn't going to motivate lazy missionaries anymore than adding more rules is going to make disobedient missionaries obedient. It was always the ones who were trying their best already who felt the stresses from raised goals and more rules. Edited June 15, 2016 by SteveO
Tacenda Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) There was something that Dr. Lyons mentioned that may give mission presidents a little break . He mentioned that some missionaries got depressed after having served for several months with no baptisms, and that the MP's were very anxious for them to have at least one baptism and soon, so that may have motivated them to not stick to the handbook guidelines. But what caused the missionary to feel so low about it in the first place? I think we all know the answer to that question. The church seems to be more about service in the mission field then they did in the past. I see it as a good balm for those that don't get the baptisms, and the thought that through service the missionary can plant seeds. Not that the majority need that push to serve, I'm sure the satisfaction comes more so that they did something to help someone in need, above all else. Edited June 15, 2016 by Tacenda
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Tacenda said: There was something that Dr. Lyons mentioned that may give Mission Presidents a little break ;). He mentioned that some missionaries got depressed after having served for several months with no baptisms, and that the MP's were very anxious for them to have at least one baptism and soon, so that may have motivated them to not stick to the handbook guidelines. But what caused the missionary to feel so low about it in the first place? I think we all know the answer to that question. The church seems to be more about service in the mission field then they did in the past. I see it as a good balm for those that don't get the baptisms, and the thought that through service the missionary can plant seeds. Not that the majority need that push to serve, I'm sure the satisfaction comes more so that they did something to help someone in need, above all else. Agreed. My only regret is that we didn't do very much service in a place where even a little service would have accomplished a great deal. I'm glad the church has worked service hours into the missionary program.
Avatar4321 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 53 minutes ago, James Tunney said: In my case it certainly did. I still feel regret for pushing some into the water to get my numbers and the inevitable brushoff of the new member after baptism. I was simply too busy looking for the next victim to have any relationship with my converts post baptism. It made the whole experience too mechanical and impersonal. And to top it off, it was kind of a thankless job because the attitude of the mission program is like the employer/employee relationship. The employer doesn't want to give too much praise, if any, otherwise the employee may not continue to work as hard if there isn't the constant hunger to achieve more. Anyway, my point was driven home when I was fishing for a compliment from the G.A. in the ward who happened to be my home teacher at the time. When I told him of my supposed success, he kind of brushed it off by asking how many complete families did I baptize, knowing that complete families is more of a rarity. You know, no one should get to confident with themselves. Humility is a key characteristic for discipleship
consiglieri Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Precisely. It beggars belief to assume that the practice is limited to the 4 missionaries who were caught. But, you know, hoping for some improvement is just exhibiting hubris and arrogance. I blame you for this most recent episode.
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 2 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I blame you for this most recent episode. If only I'd written the area president back in 1984.
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