jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, CountryBoy said: I kept such things. I still have a copy of the letter I sent to Stake asking for my name to be removed...from 1989. So...yes. I would. I reported it verbally to the ZLs. I can't imagine making a copy of my weekly letter to the mp, especially since there were no photocopiers available. Obviously I'm lying about the whole thing.
UtahTexan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: I reported it verbally to the ZLs. I can't imagine making a copy of my weekly letter to the mp, especially since there were no photocopiers available. Obviously I'm lying about the whole thing. Ah...so just to ZLs.....kids......good job!
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 Just now, CountryBoy said: Ah...so just to ZLs.....kids......good job! I wrote to the mission president (not a kid).
The Nehor Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 2 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: How does baptizing someone with very little knowledge of the LDS church further that goal? Others in this folder have mentioned people being baptized without knowledge of Joseph Smith Jr. It doesn't I was talking about good authentic baptism. The bad kind mentioned in this thread is a cause for repentance or fire and brimstone, whichever comes first. 3 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Most churches in the United States will take you off their rolls, if you do not show up at church for a year or two. People outside of the LDS church should take that into consideration when comparing the quoted statistics of the LDS church against the quoted statistics of other denominations. I am sure those outside the LDS church sit around evaluating our numbers. Generally that activity is limited to those who flunked out or dropped out. 2
UtahTexan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 Just now, jkwilliams said: I wrote to the mission president (not a kid). I see.....so....something that important and no record? I get it. Very easy to make claims you can't substantiate. Cool
Jeanne Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I reported it verbally to the ZLs. I can't imagine making a copy of my weekly letter to the mp, especially since there were no photocopiers available. Obviously I'm lying about the whole thing. Well you see...it's all your fault!
Jeanne Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: My dad found out I was sick (and weighed 114 lbs.) and was very angry that I hadn't been straight with them. We were told to always be positive and not give our families reason to worry. The only way to do both was to lie. I'm not proud of it, but I deliberately lied in pretty much every letter home. Sorry you had to go through all of this. 1
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, CountryBoy said: I see.....so....something that important and no record? I get it. Very easy to make claims you can't substantiate. Cool Oh, brother. My wife just laughed and said, Sure, everybody makes copies of their weekly letters to the president. I should say, she was at the district meeting in question, and no, she didn't think to report it. What a dereliction of duty!
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 4 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Well you see...it's all your fault! Yes, that seems to be the conclusion.
UtahTexan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 Just now, jkwilliams said: Oh, brother. My wife just laughed and said, Sure, everybody makes copies of their weekly letters to the president. I should say, she was at the district meeting in question, and no, she didn't think to report it. What a dereliction of duty! Weekly reports? Maybe not....but such an important one about such an important topic? My wife just laughed at y'alls inability to substantiate. Make up your mind about what family members you want involved....you care about your kids but not your wife?
Storm Rider Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 1 hour ago, Jim Stiles said: Hey, I know where Charles Town is: http://www.journal-news.net/page/content.detail/id/632521/Appeals-court-to-hear-sexual-abuse-case.html?nav=5006 If someone does not attend church at all for a year or two, the assumption in real churches is that they no longer wish to be associated with that denomination, or with Christianity at all. TSCC holds a cult-like grip on its former members with the hopes that they will someday start tithing again. Martinsburg is quite close; about a 20 minute drive from the house. Court cases have little meaning to me in given our extremely litigious society. A civil lawsuits give me even more pause. I was not aware of it; glad someone is keeping track of these vitally important tidbits of information. Jim, there is no uniform method of accounting for members. Some churches are quite independent and have a very loose affiliation with their respective denominations. It does not make sense to expect that all churches, denominations, and religions to have a uniform method of accounting for their members. When you have a denomination that has a set of beliefs, doctrines, teachings that focus on the importance of membership as the LDS, Catholic, and Orthodox churches do they tend to be very cognizant of the value of membership. For them that membership is a record reserved not just for this world, but the world to come. They have a spiritual obligation to note the ordinances/sacraments of each member in order to report to God what was sealed on earth and in heaven. The LDS Church is far more active in the use of excommunication and removing names than the most others with the corespondent removal of that name from saving ordinances. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 31 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: If I had experienced even a fraction of what I've seen described in this thread, I would have been explaining the situation to my parents in my letters home -- I've re-read my letters to my parents, and they are brutally honest -- and begged them to get in contact with the area presidency, and they would have. About six years ago, we had a problem in our stake that I brought up to all three members of the stake presidency, and they dismissed my concerns. So I contacted the area presidency. At the next regional training meeting, the area president chose to train the stake presidents on this very issue. Problem solved. Yeah. That's been my thought throughout this overly long thread. If people were observing such egregious irregularities, why weren't they on the horn to the mission president -- or dispatching letters home or to Salt Lake? And to be complaining about now, years after the fact, having done little or nothing to help correct it in the day -- well it just strikes me as excessive hubris. 2
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 Just now, CountryBoy said: Weekly reports? Maybe not....but such an important one about such an important topic? My wife just laughed at y'alls inability to substantiate. Make up your mind about what family members you want involved....you care about your kids but not your wife? My wife was there. My kids weren't.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: We were told to always be positive and not give our families reason to worry. Was this instruction from the mission president? I can see recommending not giving families undue reason to worry -- for many just having a child away from home creates enormous worry -- but anything beyond that seems to me to be off limits. By the way, I also dropped a bunch of weight in my first year, from 66 kg (145 lbs) to 54kg (119), but thankfully this was owing more to scarcity of food -- it was very expensive for us -- and heaps of exercise (huge areas on pushbikes) and not illness. One of our investigators took a photo of my companion and me and sent it to our parents, thanking them for sending their sons to teach her. In response, my parents wrote her back and asked her please to feed me ice cream because I clearly was too thin!
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 6 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Sorry you had to go through all of this. It wasn't a big deal at the time. I feel bad about it now, and my dad is still mad about it.
Avatar4321 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 7 hours ago, consiglieri said: To my knowledge, none of the one-minute lesson recipients continued with the discussions. But when the goal is to get discussions, you will get discussions. I have to add, though, that I was unaware of any hijinks with baptism numbers in my mission. Osaka, Japan 1979-81. Funny. I remember hunting day in and day out some days to teach a discussion and not being able to find anyone who would listen
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Was this instruction from the mission president? I can see recommending not giving families undue reason to worry -- for many just having a child away from home creates enormous worry -- but anything beyond that seems to me to be off limits. By the way, I also dropped a bunch of weight in my first year, from 66 kg (145 lbs) to 54kg (119), but thankfully this was owing more to scarcity of food -- it was very expensive for us -- and heaps of exercise (huge areas on pushbikes) and not illness. One of our investigators took a photo of my companion and me and sent it to our parents, thanking them for sending their sons to teach her. In response, my parents wrote her back and asked her please to feed me ice cream because I clearly was too thin! We were told repeatedly to be positive and never say anything negative about Bolivia or the mission or give our parents reason to worry. Several missionaries from my mission report that in their exit interviews they were told never to say anything not positive about their missions. I didn't get told that, but I never had an exit interview.
UtahTexan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: My wife was there. My kids weren't. lol...justification...cool
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: And to be complaining about now, years after the fact, having done little or nothing to help correct it in the day -- well it just strikes me as excessive hubris. I don't think that's fair, Scott. I have no way of knowing how other missionaries in my mission would have handled what has been described in this thread. I'm glad I'd been taught what to do, but that doesn't mean everyone was, and it certainly doesn't mean that everyone would have figured out how to apply the teaching in a situation that, frankly, would have left me feeling spiritual and emotional vertigo. I may not have even known what to do at first. I'm still occasionally caught out by such things, and I'm much older and more experienced now. What this should highlight for all of us is, as my dad taught, that getting things wrong in the Church hurts everyone involved. One more reason why I proudly wear the badge of 'Handbook Nazi' in my ward. Edited June 15, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan 3
Avatar4321 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 4 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Well, if the desire is not to make the entire world Mormon, then why the emphasis on baptism numbers? Because those numbers represent people who are making covenants to follow Christ. Those covenants will bless their lives if lived 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: We were told repeatedly to be positive and never say anything negative about Bolivia or the mission or give our parents reason to worry. By the mission president? By other missionaries? Just trying to understand better what was happening.
UtahTexan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 Our goal was not baptisms....it was discussions....especially first ones. So...that was our goal...and we ended up with a lot of baptisms.
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 6 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Funny. I remember hunting day in and day out some days to teach a discussion and not being able to find anyone who would listen Yep. I had a period of six consecutive months when I didn't teach a single lesson to a single person. 1
jkwilliams Posted June 15, 2016 Author Posted June 15, 2016 Just now, Hamba Tuhan said: I don't think that's fair, Scott. I have no way of knowing how other missionaries in my mission would have handled what has been described in this thread. I'm glad I'd been taught what to do, but that doesn't mean everyone was, and it certainly doesn't mean that everyone would have figured out how to apply the teaching in a situation that, frankly, would have left me feeling spiritual and emotional vertigo. I may not have even known what to do at first. I'm still occasionally caught out by such things, and I'm much older and more experienced now. What this such highlight for all of us is, as my dad taught, that getting things wrong in the Church hurts everyone involved. One more reason why I proudly wear the badge of 'Handbook Nazi' in my ward. I don't feel bad about what I did. I reported it as I should have, and when I was DL and ZL I didn't approve anyone I didn't think was ready. Either way, I am not complaining about it, just noting that what these Mexican missionaries did is not unusual. How that turned into a referendum on my mission is unclear to me. 1
Avatar4321 Posted June 15, 2016 Posted June 15, 2016 3 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Most churches in the United States will take you off their rolls, if you do not show up at church for a year or two. People outside of the LDS church should take that into consideration when comparing the quoted statistics of the LDS church against the quoted statistics of other denominations. How is it our problem if you don't care about the last sheep of your church? 2
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