Missionaries detained by police

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I just want to reiterate: it really depends on the president.  My little brother served in Chile, and they had the same type of problem--high baptisms, horrific activity rates of new members.  A new president came in half way through his mission and one of the policies he made was that investigators had to attend church 3 weeks in a row before baptism.  One missed week and the requirement would reset.  Baptisms plummeted--but my brother will tell you that all his active converts that keep in contact with him are from the second half of the mission.  BUT, 19-21 year old missionaries doing stupid things is to be expected, and if the president is jacked up about the numbers, that will inevitably trickle down to zone and district leaders.  

I understand.  This is a unique thing that is not part of a churchwide missiionary effort.  I am just thinking that the "numbers game" brought about by some zealous mission presidents holds a huge price when/wherever they serve. I feel bad for these young people because I sense that this is so out of character for them. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, SteveO said:

I just want to reiterate: it really depends on the president.  My little brother served in Chile, and they had the same type of problem--high baptisms, horrific activity rates of new members.  A new president came in half way through his mission and one of the policies he made was that investigators had to attend church 3 weeks in a row before baptism.  One missed week and the requirement would reset.  Baptisms plummeted--but my brother will tell you that all his active converts that keep in contact with him are from the second half of the mission.  BUT, 19-21 year old missionaries doing stupid things is to be expected, and if the president is jacked up about the numbers, that will inevitably trickle down to zone and district leaders.  

Precisely. My mission president wanted numbers, so we got them. In September of my second year, he set a mission goal of 600 baptisms, and we got almost 700. That December the goal was 1,000, and we got 960 baptisms. He repeatedly told us he wanted ours to be the highest baptizing mission in the church. 

Predictably, activity was abysmal, around 15%. You would go to wards with only 25 or so active members. I was in one branch with 250 members of record, but only 3 active members. We decided to visit those we could find, and more than a few hadn't even realized they had joined the church. A large number had been baptized as children. 

[jkwilliams]

My wife, who also served in Bolivia, reached the same conclusion I did about these missionaries in Mexico. She said it is disappointing that these kinds of number-padding practices are still happening. 

She was a welfare missionary, and she said she was glad she never felt that pressure for numbers. I should mention she is active in the church. 

[JAHS]

Elder Oaks once addressed this:

"In the summer of 2001, Sister Oaks and I were in Manaus, Brazil. I spoke to about 100 missionaries in that great city on the Amazon. As I stood to speak, I was prompted to put aside some notes I usually use on such occasions and substitute some thoughts on the importance of timing—some of the scriptures and principles I have been discussing here.
I reminded the missionaries that some of our most important plans cannot be brought to pass without the agency and actions of others. A missionary cannot baptize five persons this month without the agency and action of five other persons. A missionary can plan and work and do all within his or her power, but the desired result will depend upon the additional agency and action of others.
Consequently, a missionary’s goals ought to be based upon the missionary’s personal agency and action, not upon the agency or action of others. But this is not the time to elaborate on what I told the missionaries about goals." (Ensign October 2003)

 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, JAHS said:

Elder Oaks once addressed this:

"In the summer of 2001, Sister Oaks and I were in Manaus, Brazil. I spoke to about 100 missionaries in that great city on the Amazon. As I stood to speak, I was prompted to put aside some notes I usually use on such occasions and substitute some thoughts on the importance of timing—some of the scriptures and principles I have been discussing here.
I reminded the missionaries that some of our most important plans cannot be brought to pass without the agency and actions of others. A missionary cannot baptize five persons this month without the agency and action of five other persons. A missionary can plan and work and do all within his or her power, but the desired result will depend upon the additional agency and action of others.
Consequently, a missionary’s goals ought to be based upon the missionary’s personal agency and action, not upon the agency or action of others. But this is not the time to elaborate on what I told the missionaries about goals." (Ensign October 2003)

 

I think one problem is that the desired result should be real conversion, not just "getting them dunked," as the saying went in my mission. 

[UtahTexan]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

You weren't in my mission, obviously. As for the hearsay, I have no reason to doubt what my son's friend told me directly, or the other young men who told me it was pretty similar in their missions in Bolivia, Peru, and Chile. 

I suppose they and I could be making it all up.

I never said I was in your mission.  I simply pointed out I served at about the same time as you did...and also South of the USA.  Mine was not like that at all.  But, Most posts I see from you are negative.  So, I was not surprised at your take of the mission field

[JAHS]

Here's a translation of an updated news article:

"According to the President of Anahuac, the sectional missionaries detainees were already reported to prevent their entry to the State, in response to the complaint that made parents about irregularities in the religious protocols, given that they were baptising under deception several small children.

"Young people went out of the protocols they have," stated branch, Ruben Aguilera, who attended personally the complaint of parents and took the young people before the Public Ministry for investigation.

Also they have engaged in dialog with the Mormon leaders, who are concerned, because the situation in which they were involved should not have happened, because it was made without them being informed and also parents did not know of the baptisms."

https://www.elheraldodechihuahua.com.mx/noroeste/9282-expulsan-a-los-mormones-chihuahua-ya-fueron-boletinados

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, CountryBoy said:

I never said I was in your mission.  I simply pointed out I served at about the same time as you did...and also South of the USA.  Mine was not like that at all.  But, Most posts I see from you are negative.  So, I was not surprised at your take of the mission field

I enjoyed my mission and don't regret it at all. But I know this stuff was common and it appears it's still happening. I guess that's being negative, or something. 

[Calm]

Hopefully this will get spread around and discourage anyone from being tempted to try unauthorized baptisms in the future no matter what this turns out to be.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Calm said:

Hopefully this will get spread around and discourage anyone from being tempted to try unauthorized baptisms in the future no matter what this turns out to be.

I hope so too. 

[salgare]

What a shame, the damage we do to our youth, programming them from the youngest possible ages ... with proud moms and dads back home.

Edited June 12, 2016 by salgare

[SteveO]

Just got back from date night with the wife, and I was thinking about this thread.  Sorry I'm going overboard with the posts, but I think its important

2 hours ago, CountryBoy said:

I never said I was in your mission.  I simply pointed out I served at about the same time as you did...and also South of the USA.  Mine was not like that at all.  But, Most posts I see from you are negative.  So, I was not surprised at your take of the mission field

I have no doubt your mission was the opposite from jkwilliams and I.  But, missions can go off the rails...I hope I'm not derailing, but this may be of interest in the spirit of the thread:

Shortly before I got to the MTC (2005), there was an incident where the president had to call the mission homes of every missionary who had recently left for the field.  Reason was, they had formed a pretty harmless "exclusive club"  in the MTC for those who were able to swallow a penny...the president got in contact with each one of the members of the club and told them to repent, because what they were doing was the result of some pretty insidious influence.  The instructors made sure we knew what went down and that that kind of stuff wasn't tolerated.  I thought the whole thing was dumb--but harmless and not as big a deal as the instructors seemed to be making of it.

Well, when I got out into the field, Mexico City East, a number of missionaries just shy of a hundred got sent home.  They were copying names off gravestones for baptism.  I've heard of this occuring to varying degrees of severity in other missions since returning home, but that's not the interesting part.  They found out which missionaries were participating in the copying by having them lift their left pant leg at zone conference.  The missionaries participating had made an "exclusive club" and had themselves branded on their left ankles.  Pretty diabolical stuff, but I knew then why the president in the MTC had made such a big deal out of the penny incident.

Anyways, I'm not trying to drag the church in the mud, I've been a pretty ardent supporter of the church here.  And I hope the missionary work has vastly improved since the near decade I've returned home.  But based off personal experience, there are some things that go on that should alarm the membership of the church.  And honestly, stuff like what happened in the original post don't surprise me a bit.  

 

[The Nehor]

I had two good Mission Presidents who would come down on you for anything like this. The idiocy in my Mission came from the APs and Zone Leaders. I do know that three Mission Presidents back there was an insane push for numbers. We knew it and a lot of the local leaders did too. We had nicknames for the converts of that era on the ward lists. I am sure someone baptized in those three years is still active but I never met one. Most did not know they were members. On the whole they were as a Ward Mission Leader put it "a bunch of nutters".

Leaders who fail that badly will have a lot of explaining to do some day.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Well, I can only go on my experience and what I've heard from quite a few recently returned missionaries. It was definitely commonplace in my mission, which is why the story, though sensationalized, didn't surprise me  

The other term in my mission for it was "kiddie baps." When 200 missionaries are told to get 1,000 baptisms in a single month, these things happen. 

Wow.

[Rain]

5 hours ago, JAHS said:

Elder Oaks once addressed this:

"In the summer of 2001, Sister Oaks and I were in Manaus, Brazil. I spoke to about 100 missionaries in that great city on the Amazon. As I stood to speak, I was prompted to put aside some notes I usually use on such occasions and substitute some thoughts on the importance of timing—some of the scriptures and principles I have been discussing here.
I reminded the missionaries that some of our most important plans cannot be brought to pass without the agency and actions of others. A missionary cannot baptize five persons this month without the agency and action of five other persons. A missionary can plan and work and do all within his or her power, but the desired result will depend upon the additional agency and action of others.
Consequently, a missionary’s goals ought to be based upon the missionary’s personal agency and action, not upon the agency or action of others. But this is not the time to elaborate on what I told the missionaries about goals." (Ensign October 2003)

 

Thank you.  My husband was recently released as ward missionary.  Before he was released we were trying to work with the stake and the mission about seting goals.  They wanted number of baptisms.  We explained we can't set goals for other people,  only ourselves.  I loved it when one bishopric member really listened and then remarked that he got it - that it would be like seting a goal for your wife to lose 10 pounds.  Now I need to put the quote some place I can find it again.  

Edited June 12, 2016 by Rain

[James Tunney]

This has been a problem since the baseball baptisms of the 50's and 60's. Apostles and 70's want numbers and this as well as fibbing on reports is the result.

[Jim Stiles]

1 hour ago, James Tunney said:

This has been a problem since the baseball baptisms of the 50's and 60's. Apostles and 70's want numbers and this as well as fibbing on reports is the result.

Back in the 1970s, I heard stories of baseball baptisms.

[sjdawg]

Although I no longer believe I am happy to have served in a Mission (Portugal) where although baptisms were very difficult to come by this type of activity wasn't tolerated.   We were not pressured to baptize every month if no one was ready.   Baptisms were the goal of course but not at any cost.   I believe most missions are being run ethically and responsibly but it only takes one or two (companionships, districts, missions,  insert your preferred descriptor here) to damage the reputations of many

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, SteveO said:

They were copying names off gravestones for baptism.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Can you please explain?

[jkwilliams]

The Tribune has picked it up. 

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3996349-155/4-lds-missionaries-detained-after-father

[jkwilliams]

9 hours ago, SteveO said:

Just got back from date night with the wife, and I was thinking about this thread.  Sorry I'm going overboard with the posts, but I think its important

I have no doubt your mission was the opposite from jkwilliams and I.  But, missions can go off the rails...I hope I'm not derailing, but this may be of interest in the spirit of the thread:

Shortly before I got to the MTC (2005), there was an incident where the president had to call the mission homes of every missionary who had recently left for the field.  Reason was, they had formed a pretty harmless "exclusive club"  in the MTC for those who were able to swallow a penny...the president got in contact with each one of the members of the club and told them to repent, because what they were doing was the result of some pretty insidious influence.  The instructors made sure we knew what went down and that that kind of stuff wasn't tolerated.  I thought the whole thing was dumb--but harmless and not as big a deal as the instructors seemed to be making of it.

Well, when I got out into the field, Mexico City East, a number of missionaries just shy of a hundred got sent home.  They were copying names off gravestones for baptism.  I've heard of this occuring to varying degrees of severity in other missions since returning home, but that's not the interesting part.  They found out which missionaries were participating in the copying by having them lift their left pant leg at zone conference.  The missionaries participating had made an "exclusive club" and had themselves branded on their left ankles.  Pretty diabolical stuff, but I knew then why the president in the MTC had made such a big deal out of the penny incident.

Anyways, I'm not trying to drag the church in the mud, I've been a pretty ardent supporter of the church here.  And I hope the missionary work has vastly improved since the near decade I've returned home.  But based off personal experience, there are some things that go on that should alarm the membership of the church.  And honestly, stuff like what happened in the original post don't surprise me a bit.  

 

That sounds like an urban legend, but I wasn't there.

We had a few missionaries submit faked baptismal forms, but nothing like what you describe. Most missionaries in my mission tried their best to follow the rules, but the pressure to produce meant we often baptized people who were nowhere near ready. 

Edited June 12, 2016 by jkwilliams

[Gray]

There had been a lot of that in my Latin American mission in the 90s. I served in the early 00s, and while that exact practice had stopped. there was the consequence of many wards with 10% activity or less. Tracking down inactive members was often impossible.

Unfortunately, we still baptized people before they were ready. The goal was 2 weeks from start to finish, which isn't nearly enough time. What happens when you focus on rushing people through the system is that you end up baptizing people who are pretty easily manipulated, who want to say yes just to make you happy. They don't make for strong members of the church.

But I was warned ahead of time - the mission is a numbers game. I tried not to get sucked into it because I knew it was a vain (in both meanings of the word) exercise.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Gray

[omni]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

There had been a lot of that in my Latin American mission in the 90s. I served in the early 00s, and while that exact practice had stopped. there was the consequence of many wards with 10% activity or less. Tracking down inactive members was often impossible.

Unfortunately, we still baptized people before they were ready. The goal was 2 weeks from start to finish, which isn't nearly enough time. What happens when you focus on rushing people through the system is that you end up baptizing people who are pretty easily manipulated, who want to say yes just to make you happy. They don't make for strong members of the church.

But I was warned ahead of time - the mission is a numbers game. I tried not to get sucked into it because I knew it was a vain (in both meanings of the word) exercise.

It's always been amazing to me that the Church allows converts to make covenants affecting their eternal salvation after just one or two weeks.  

It would be interesting to see if the requirements for baptism became stricter if a country began requiring a $2,500 fee for every convert baptism into a church.

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

There had been a lot of that in my Latin American mission in the 90s. I served in the early 00s, and while that exact practice had stopped. there was the consequence of many wards with 10% activity or less. Tracking down inactive members was often impossible.

Unfortunately, we still baptized people before they were ready. The goal was 2 weeks from start to finish, which isn't nearly enough time. What happens when you focus on rushing people through the system is that you end up baptizing people who are pretty easily manipulated, who want to say yes just to make you happy. They don't make for strong members of the church.

But I was warned ahead of time - the mission is a numbers game. I tried not to get sucked into it because I knew it was a vain (in both meanings of the word) exercise.

That's pretty much how it was with us. That last month when the mp set the goal of 1,000 baptisms, my companion and I were in the far north, about 800 miles from the nearest missionaries. We decided we weren't going to do anything differently. We baptized a young couple the day before I left to go home, so I guess we underperformed. But we felt we really had made a difference in their lives. 

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Yikes. We had a few missionaries submit faked baptismal forms, but nothing like what you describe. Most missionaries in my mission tried their best to follow the rules, but the pressure to produce meant we often baptized people who were nowhere near ready. 

I had a friend who was a missionary during the Hartman Rector, Jr.'s years serving as mission president in San Diego, Ca.  What a mess that was and I believe he was released when the leaders realized what was going on!  He was bringing bus loads of people from Mexico up over the border, giving them only one discussion, baptizing them in member's swimming pools and then busing them back over the border.  Rector boasted many times how his mission was the highest baptizing mission in the church....no wonder