Are natural disasters a sign of God's disfavor?

[Maedros]

"Vengeful and angry" according to our understanding and interpretation but as we know from the scriptures, the Lord's ways and thoughts are higher than ours. I personally think that the devil is the destroyer and whenever a disaster happens it is as the result of his power - I'll even go so far and say that he wins that particular battle which is (in most cases) due to the wickedness of the people of whatever region, such as Pompeii or New Orleans.

[canard78]

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

Like you said, if we use the scriptures, then it sometimes happens.  I don't think it's often though.

The times when God is credited with either causing or averting a disaster seems to have a rather impressive relationship with the times when humans seem to want to claim that their God is on their side. The rest of them are just "random natural events."

 

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, canard78 said:

The times when God is credited with either causing or averting a disaster seems to have a rather impressive relationship with the times when humans seem to want to claim that their God is on their side. The rest of them are just "random natural events."

If God is constrained by natural laws, then it would seem that it is God's omniscience that allows for disasters to occur at opportune teaching moments. It's not that he waves his hand and sends an earthquake but that the pressure along a fault has been building for a long time, and it finally shears at the moment when there are people around who will benefit from the lesson. Or it could just be that natural disasters happen through natural processes.

[rodheadlee]

ok it's time for a Robin Williams joke. Earthquakes are God's way of saying "get those condos off of my back". RIP Robin.

[Gray]

14 hours ago, Sky said:

The Book of Mormon indicates that certain cities in the new world were taken out for their wickedness.  God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.  The late Spencer W. Kimball once said that the fate of Pompeii was ultimately because of the wickedness of the people.  But can a loving God really be this vengeful and angry?  Is there any modern parallel to this?  Or is this idea simply an outdated, religious superstition?      

I think people interpreted natural disasters in this way because they simply did not understand  what caused them, and did the very human thing of assigning agency to that which has no agency. 

[HappyJackWagon]

18 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think people interpreted natural disasters in this way because they simply did not understand  what caused them, and did the very human thing of assigning agency to that which has no agency. 

Yes. Thank you for this reasonable response

Natural disasters occur around the world. They always have. Bad people die. Good people die. Property is destroyed. Natural disasters are "natural" consequences of merging and conflicting "natural" systems. I'm not discounting the possibility that God could use disasters for His purposes but I don't know how often he causes them to teach us with tough love.

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Sky said:

The Book of Mormon indicates that certain cities in the new world were taken out for their wickedness.  God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.  The late Spencer W. Kimball once said that the fate of Pompeii was ultimately because of the wickedness of the people.  But can a loving God really be this vengeful and angry?  Is there any modern parallel to this?  Or is this idea simply an outdated, religious superstition?      

I think God takes punitive measures upon a people directly and with intent on occasion. He has warned of it, and we sometimes realize through revelation that such was the case after the fact.

President Kimball’s reference is interesting, because I think wickedness is often answered through natural consequences rather than by direct human or divine enforcement. This is still a good reason not to seek wickedness, but we do see attribution to God’s vengeance made as a result of ignorance and superstition as well.

I see nothing more wrong with divine vengeance and anger than I do with divine forgiveness or happiness since divine love covers all God’s emotions, decisions and expressions.

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said:

Oh my!  Who and where would you pick for the next natural disaster?   Or maybe often enough for what??

I wouldn't.  And not often as in not frequently or typically (the definition of the word 'often').

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, canard78 said:

The times when God is credited with either causing or averting a disaster seems to have a rather impressive relationship with the times when humans seem to want to claim that their God is on their side. The rest of them are just "random natural events."

 

How many times in the scriptures is God credited with a natural disaster?

[jkwilliams]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How many times in the scriptures is God credited with a natural disaster?

Well, there's 3 Nephi and the flood, for a start. 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Well, there's 3 Nephi and the flood, for a start. 

And S & G and one drought with Elijah, right?  Are there anymore I'm forgetting?

If not, then that's four natural disasters that God is credited with in something like four thousand years.  It seems reasonable to assume that the ancient civilizations who wrote the scriptures experienced way more natural disasters than that. 

So it's likely that people rarely (very rarely) blamed natural disasters on God even when they believed He was on their side.  Neither did they seem to use the 'God's angry' card to explain away natural disasters very often.

[smac97]

On 5/19/2016 at 4:22 PM, Sky said:

The Book of Mormon indicates that certain cities in the new world were taken out for their wickedness.  God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.  The late Spencer W. Kimball once said that the fate of Pompeii was ultimately because of the wickedness of the people.  

• 1 Nephi 3:17 - "For he knew that Jerusalem must be destroyed, because of the wickedness of the people."
• Prov. 10:29 - "The way of the Lord is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity."
• Mormon 6:22 - "O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy."
• 2 Nephi 2:10 - "And because of the intercession for all, all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him. Wherefore, the ends of the law which the Holy One hath given, unto the inflicting of the punishment which is affixed, which punishment that is affixed is in opposition to that of the happiness which is affixed, to answer the ends of the atonement."
• Alma 42:1 - "And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery."
• Alma 42:22 - "But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God."
• Mormon 4:5 - "But, behold, the judgments of God will overtake the wicked; and it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; for it is the wicked that stir up the hearts of the children of men unto bloodshed."
• D&C 109:43 - "O Lord, we delight not in the destruction of our fellow men; their souls are precious before thee."

I think all of us hope that an omnipotent, omniscient God is also a just God.  Justice requires law.  Law requires differentiation of consequences based on observance or violation of the law.  Violation of the law requires . . . punishment.  Otherwise, all of these things fail, and "God would cease to be God."

I do not think we can attribute all (or even most) natural disasters to divine retribution upon the wicked.  But I don't think anyone can read the scriptures and deny that God has, at times, used natural disasters to punish the wicked.

Quote

But can a loving God really be this vengeful and angry?    

With respect, this is a rather facile question.  "Facile" as in "appearing neat and comprehensive only by ignoring the true complexities of an issue; superficial."

I work as an attorney, and a portion of the work I do involved post-foreclosure evictions.  This is an unpleasant, but necessary, aspect of my job.  I recently completed a dispute where the borrower insisted that the foreclosure on his home and the subsequent eviction of him from it were "wrong."  He declared this over and over and over.  He did not address his failure to pay his mortgage for 2+ years, his failure to pay the arrearages after he was defaulted, his failure to vacate after having been instructed to in a legal notice, and so on.  He ignored all of these things and, without explanation or justification, simply and self-servingly declared, over and over again, that the foreclosure and eviction were "wrong."  His position was, in a word, facile.  His position requires that everyone involved ignore the context of his behavior and just skip to a superficial conclusion favorable to him.  That just doesn't work.

God can be both "loving" and "vengeful."  Indeed, the very nature of God being "just" necessarily requires Him to have both of these attributes.  He deploys them perfectly and correctly.  His being omnipotent and omniscient allow that.  

Quote

Is there any modern parallel to this?  Or is this idea simply an outdated, religious superstition?    

Yes to the first question, no to the second.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 20, 2016 by smac97

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

How many times in the scriptures is God credited with a natural disaster?

 

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Well, there's 3 Nephi and the flood, for a start.

 

Several plagues of Moses - thunderstorms, hail, fire, famine, pestilence etc
Destruction of cities - Jericho, Sodom & Gomorrah
Naughty kids mauled by bears after being cursed
The Zion's camp scourge
The miracle of the gulls vs the plague of locusts
The tithing caused rain in the days of Lorenzo Snow
 

God absolutely influences and directs both the starting and the stopping of many natural disasters.

And those are the ones in the past.  There are MANY future natural disasters that are prophesied still to come at the hands of God.  (I'd think twice before living in Boston, Albany, or New York).
Do we really think God has no say in who lives and dies?
Do we really think the wickedness of societies and nations has not effect on God's judgements?

[Guest]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What are you? Some kind of socialist? Building codes are pure evil just like all government regulations.

No, just worked as an inspector for a long time. But, you're right how dare me.  

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

 

Several plagues of Moses - thunderstorms, hail, fire, famine, pestilence etc
Destruction of cities - Jericho, Sodom & Gomorrah
Naughty kids mauled by bears after being cursed
The Zion's camp scourge
The miracle of the gulls vs the plague of locusts
The tithing caused rain in the days of Lorenzo Snow
 

God absolutely influences and directs both the starting and the stopping of many natural disasters.

And those are the ones in the past.  There are MANY future natural disasters that are prophesied still to come at the hands of God.  (I'd think twice before living in Boston, Albany, or New York).
Do we really think God has no say in who lives and dies?
Do we really think the wickedness of societies and nations has not effect on God's judgements?

True. 

I was sticking specifically to those instances that would be defined as "natural disasters" by a nonbeliever.

So nothing involving armies or caused by war, supernatural occurances, a few deaths by wild animal, etc. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said:

But they suffer from not natural disasters because God withdrew protection, that's what you said.

No, I said that this is sometimes the case. Also that it was my opinion. 

[hope_for_things]

18 hours ago, Sky said:

The Book of Mormon indicates that certain cities in the new world were taken out for their wickedness.  God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.  The late Spencer W. Kimball once said that the fate of Pompeii was ultimately because of the wickedness of the people.  But can a loving God really be this vengeful and angry?  Is there any modern parallel to this?  Or is this idea simply an outdated, religious superstition?      

What other superstitions exist that people use to attribute to God, but that we see natural explanations for today?  Disease, physical deformities at birth, female fertility, probably male fertility too, regular weather events(rain, snow, heat waves), eclipses or any other changes in the space, addictions to substances, ability to catch fish, rainbows, etc.  Those are just off the top of my head, I'm sure there lots more.

I'm willing to hold out a possibility that God at times gets involved in things that we have natural explanations for.  I just don't see why we should expect that God is the catalyst when we have natural explanations for these things.  Also, I honestly wonder if God is involved in anything at all.  At times I think there isn't any evidence of an involved God, so I might identify as a deist.  Other times I have an experience where I feel like there was a divine hand involved.  I can't rule out the possibility, but I also don't see any objective evidence to prove God's involvement in these things.  

I'm inclined to say that God is not involved in natural disasters.  

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, JAHS said:

..................................................................................  

So maybe it's not just God that causes physical disasters to happen; could it be the earth itself reacting to the wickedness of man?

Or maybe it's just plate tectonics and vulcanism.

[Jeanne]

All I know is that when it rains..and rains hard..I have planned a barbecue or washed the car!

[JLHPROF]

55 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

What other superstitions exist that people use to attribute to God, but that we see natural explanations for today?  Disease, physical deformities at birth, female fertility, probably male fertility too, regular weather events(rain, snow, heat waves), eclipses or any other changes in the space, addictions to substances, ability to catch fish, rainbows, etc.

The flaw in thinking on both sides is that these are not mutually exclusive causes.
A drought may be a regular weather event as part of a scientific cycle.  A drought may be a tool God uses to punish the wicked or to test the faith of the righteous.

Or, and here's the real kicker, it may be BOTH.
The progressive scientific crowd likes to say it's not God, it's nature.  But something being a natural phenomenon doesn't prevent God from directing it.

 

[JAHS]

18 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

14 hours ago, JAHS said:

..................................................................................  

So maybe it's not just God that causes physical disasters to happen; could it be the earth itself reacting to the wickedness of man?

Or maybe it's just plate tectonics and vulcanism.

 

The idea that the earth is alive and has a spirit and can act on it's own to cause disasters is an idea I have seen promoted by others an may or may not be true.
But I personally believe that God created the earth setting things in motion and let it grow and go on it's own by natural physical actions.
We do of course have to acknowledge God's power and omnipotence over all things and His ability to make things happen for His purposes if we believe in the Bible.

"For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."  (Gen 7:7)

Not only did He cause a flood but He promised a flood like that would never happen again:

"And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth." (Gen. 9: 11)

So we know that He is able to have some control over the physical actions of the earth.
 

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The flaw in thinking on both sides is that these are not mutually exclusive causes.
A drought may be a regular weather event as part of a scientific cycle.  A drought may be a tool God uses to punish the wicked or to test the faith of the righteous.

Or, and here's the real kicker, it may be BOTH.
The progressive scientific crowd likes to say it's not God, it's nature.  But something being a natural phenomenon doesn't prevent God from directing it.
 

It's really hard to compare the two examples.  On one side, we have objective measurable evidence for natural explanations.  While to say that God uses disasters to punish the wicked or test the faith of the righteous, there is no way to prove or measure that explanation.

I don't want to assume that just because some person in antiquity thought that a natural disaster was caused by God, that they were correct.  They also thought a lot of other things that we now consider superstitious or just uninformed.  

[USU78]

Back in '99, the SLC tornado wiped out a couple of homosexual watering holes, tore up the outdoor retailer event tent, killing one guy, bent a crane all out of shape at the Conference Center (then under construction), but otherwise causing little damage, and tore up some trees and such till it dissipated.

My view on the phenomenon?  G-d, I believe, restrains, at times, the elements and the predator, and otherwise let's them rip.  It's entirely up to Him to tell us when He has done so and why.  Otherwise, He lets His rain fall upon the righteous and the unrighteous.

[hope_for_things]

31 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Back in '99, the SLC tornado wiped out a couple of homosexual watering holes, tore up the outdoor retailer event tent, killing one guy, bent a crane all out of shape at the Conference Center (then under construction), but otherwise causing little damage, and tore up some trees and such till it dissipated.

My view on the phenomenon?  G-d, I believe, restrains, at times, the elements and the predator, and otherwise let's them rip.  It's entirely up to Him to tell us when He has done so and why.  Otherwise, He lets His rain fall upon the righteous and the unrighteous.

If scriptures are written by fallible humans, and I believe they are, then when has God ever told us that he has used a natural disaster and explained his purposes?  

[mikegriffith1]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.