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First vision accounts getting detailed attention in CES devotional


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24 minutes ago, ttribe said:

To paraphrase Master Yoda - "My own counsel will I keep on the conclusions I choose to draw."

Your prerogative.

But your speculative conclusions are not binding on me.

 

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6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Your prerogative.

But your speculative conclusions are not binding on me.

 

What an odd response.  Of course someone's opinions about you are not 'binding' on you.

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5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

What an odd response.  Of course someone's opinions about you are not 'binding' on you.

Just establishing boundaries.

I cannot force you to hold a certain opinion about me, but neither am I obliged to accept the opinion you do hold.

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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41 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm with Scott that the belief expressed by Elder Rector doesn't ring true, but obviously some people believe it. 

Here is the passage that Elder Rector quoted in that address:

 

Quote

 

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

 34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

 

I read this as saying that if one is predisposed to do evil, that predisposition is apt to continue in the post-mortal existence, unless one overcomes that predisposition beforehand. (The spirits that followed Lucifer are an example of spirit beings who have such a predisposition.)

I don't read it as saying that physical or physiological conditions or maladies that compel one to behave in a certain way will be perpetuated beyond the grave. My reasoning from the scriptures leads me to the opposite conclusion, in fact.

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51 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Statements from Church leaders on official Church websites say otherwise.

Moreover, I believe the assurance given by Amulek applies to more than just physical conditions.

Statements like Elder Packer's when he asked "why would a loving Father do that", which was later removed from the conference transcript? Or are you referring again to the Q&A answer by Elder Wickham of the 70?

How does that square with what you said previously?

Quote

I remember hearing this while growing up, and I have to say it doesn't ring true to me.

I could conceive, perhaps, of a psychological disposition to continue ungodly tendencies, but my understanding is that at death, the body is left in the grave while the spirit goes to the spirit world. Hence, any physical cravings belonging to the body would thus be left behind.

As for the resurrection, I understand from the teaching of Amulek in Alma 2 that the body will be resurrected in a whole state; that is, all maladies, deformities, injuries -- congenital or otherwise -- will be removed in the resurrection.

What I keep hearing from the gay lobby is that people who are homosexual were "born that way." If this is true, then homosexuality would be a condition of mortality that will not be perpetuated beyond the grave.

You spoke specifically about physical issues cured by the resurrection. You also specifically stated that you could conceive a psychological disposition to continue certain tendencies. But you're also claiming that h0mosxuality couldn't continue in the next life. I'm not sure why that is so inconceivable. Are you claiming that the physical resurrection also cures maladies of the mind and spirit? Just curious because I'm not following your logic.

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1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Here is the passage that Elder Rector quoted in that address:

I read this as saying that if one is predisposed to do evil, that predisposition is apt to continue in the post-mortal existence, unless one overcomes that predisposition beforehand. (The spirits that followed Lucifer are an example of spirit beings who have such a predisposition.)

I don't read it as saying that physical or physiological conditions or maladies that compel one to behave in a certain way will be perpetuated beyond the grave. My reasoning from the scriptures leads me to the opposite conclusion, in fact.

He directly said that people who are addicted to tobacco, for example, will still crave tobacco in the spirit world, but it will be a hell to them because there won't be any tobacco to be had there. I don't know how else to read what he said. As I said, I agree with you that this doesn't ring true, but it's pretty clear what Elder Rector was saying. Heaven forbid that he get anything wrong, no matter how minor.

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1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Here's Hartman Rector in general conference, October 1970:

I was definitely taught that...

By the way: once upon a time this thread was about the first vision. What are we talking about now? The POTF?

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2 minutes ago, canard78 said:

I was definitely taught that...

By the way: once upon a time this thread was about the first vision. What are we talking about now? The POTF?

Beats me how we got onto the topic of temptations in the spirit world, but here we are. 

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54 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Statements like Elder Packer's when he asked "why would a loving Father do that", which was later removed from the conference transcript? Or are you referring again to the Q&A answer by Elder Wickham of the 70?

 

No. I am alluding specifically to the statements on the Church website by Elder Oaks and Elder Wickman, and the statement on mormonsandgays.org,  an official site that was prepared under the direction of the leadership of the Church.

HJW, don't tell me you have forgotten again already! Are you going to be insisting again next week that the Church has never taken any position on whether homosexuality continues after mortality?

Quote

You spoke specifically about physical issues cured by the resurrection. You also specifically stated that you could conceive a psychological disposition to continue certain tendencies. But you're also claiming that h0mosxuality couldn't continue in the next life. I'm not sure why that is so inconceivable. Are you claiming that the physical resurrection also cures maladies of the mind and spirit? Just curious because I'm not following your logic.

As I have already stated, it doesn't seem to me consistent with the justice and mercy of God that conditions one has striven to conquer in mortality would then follow one into the hereafter, be they physiological or psychological.

Again, my reading of the passage cited by Elder Rector is that it refers to a predisposition to do evil, and that is a function of free will more than anything else.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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20 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

He directly said that people who are addicted to tobacco, for example, will still crave tobacco in the spirit world, but it will be a hell to them because there won't be any tobacco to be had there. I don't know how else to read what he said. As I said, I agree with you that this doesn't ring true, but it's pretty clear what Elder Rector was saying. Heaven forbid that he get anything wrong, no matter how minor.

Got it.

I'm saying I disagree with Elder Rector in this.

And, strange as it may seem, I am agreeing with you.

 

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25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Here is the passage that Elder Rector quoted in that address:

 

I read this as saying that if one is predisposed to do evil, that predisposition is apt to continue in the post-mortal existence, unless one overcomes that predisposition beforehand. (The spirits that followed Lucifer are an example of spirit beings who have such a predisposition.)

I don't read it as saying that physical or physiological conditions or maladies that compel one to behave in a certain way will be perpetuated beyond the grave. My reasoning from the scriptures leads me to the opposite conclusion, in fact.

But is the predisposition to do evil the only predisposition that continues? For example, after I die and before I'm resurrected I can imagine feeling the desire to have spousal relations with my wife. There's nothing evil about that. Or what about the desire to taste my favorite food?

In other words, it would be impossible to eliminate every deposition developed in this life, or carried into this life from the pre-mortal life, because they are a part of who we are. If we don't carry who we are into the next life, then what's the point of experiencing this life beyond getting a body?

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22 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

But is the predisposition to do evil the only predisposition that continues? For example, after I die and before I'm resurrected I can imagine feeling the desire to have spousal relations with my wife. There's nothing evil about that. Or what about the desire to taste my favorite food?

In other words, it would be impossible to eliminate every deposition developed in this life, or carried into this life from the pre-mortal life, because they are a part of who we are. If we don't carry who we are into the next life, then what's the point of experiencing this life beyond getting a body?

Those who strive to obey God in all things will enjoy in the next life the blessings that flow from obedience in this one. If they have the attitude of repentance, their shortcomings, whatever they may be, will be swallowed up in the atoning sacrifice of the Savior and Deliverer, Jesus Christ, and they will be glorified and perfected.

What matters is one's exercise of his own moral agency.

What, you ask, is the point of getting a body? To grow through the righteous exercise of agency.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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45 minutes ago, canard78 said:

I was definitely taught that...

By the way: once upon a time this thread was about the first vision. What are we talking about now? The POTF?

 

42 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Beats me how we got onto the topic of temptations in the spirit world, but here we are. 

You all have my permission -- if you think you need it -- to return to the topic of the OP. I think I've said what I need to on the family proclamation and the erroneous notion that homosexuality continues beyond the grave.

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2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You all have my permission -- if you think you need it -- to return to the topic of the OP. I think I've said what I need to on the family proclamation and the erroneous notion that homosexuality continues beyond the grave.

So, tobacco addiction does continue beyond the grave, but homoerotic desire does not. Got it.

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On 5/22/2016 at 5:47 PM, longview said:

I have been reading the Bible thru this past two months (after having read the BoM several times for the past few years).  I am now in Deuteronomy.  Abraham and Lot (Book of Genesis) were taught by the Lord that homosexuality in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah was a grievous abomination.  I would count each individual homosexuals for my totals.  B:)

I agree with you and HJW that it would take a considerable amount of time to list every passage.  So maybe I should have said "MANY" instead of hundreds.  :wacko:

 

I actually think you've drastically overestimated the number of scriptures that condemn homosexuality.  I'd be surprised if you could find 10.

I'm also mystified by those who are so devoutly influenced by what the Bible teaches against homosexuality, but with careful ammendation when it comes to the penalty God requires:

 

Quote

 

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/lev/20.13?lang=eng

 

So we're saying that at some point, God changed his mind about wanting homosexuals being put to death, but He didn't change His mind about it being an abomination.  When was that revelation?

Edited by cinepro
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45 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Got it.

I'm saying I disagree with Elder Rector in this.

And, strange as it may seem, I am agreeing with you.

There is a powerful emotional component to tobacco addiction, which i think can easily be carried into the spirit world: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK53018/

"According to Hogarth and Duka (2006), considerable evidence suggests that nicotine- conditioned effects are mediated by a smoker’s expectations of the effects of nicotine coupled with an appetitive emotional response that reflects the positive value of nicotine to the smoker (e.g., pleasure or relaxation)."

I do believe we carry all of our emotional appetites into the spirit world, where we can continue to reign them in by the power and companionship of the Holy Spirit until we fill our souls with that exceeding great joy the Lord provides through His covenants, if we are only willing (1 Nephi 8:12). Everyone is given the opportunity to do this.

Edited by CV75
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10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Those who strive to obey God in all things will enjoy in the next life the blessings that flow from obedience in this one. If they have the attitude of repentance, their shortcomings, whatever they may be, will be swallowed up in the atoning sacrifice of the Savior and Deliverer, Jesus Christ, and they will be glorified and perfected.

What matters is one's exercise of his own moral agency.

What, you ask, is the point of getting a body? To grow through the righteous exercise of agency.

We are all in the process of becoming something. We are all a mixture of good, bad, ugly, and average. In the spirit world will we suddenly forget what our favorite foods taste like or no longer have any desire for physical touch? That does sound hellish.

Having the attitude of repentance is great but it doesn't mean our desires, personality, and predispositions will magically disappear or rearrange. I don't understand how resurrection will magically make someone not gay. It's not a physical ailment. It is part of the personality, psychology, and soul of the individual. It's part of who they are. The atonement resurrects the body and it washes us clean of our past sinful behaviors but it doesn't instantly morph us into something we're not.

Read Elder Oaks "The Challenge to Become". The parable he shares illustrates my point. The father could not give his son His character. The son had to become a person of character and become like his father. There was no magical transference of godly character. To me, claiming that a person suddenly has an important characteristic change, sounds like claiming God makes us what he wants instead of allowing us to become.

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8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You all have my permission -- if you think you need it -- to return to the topic of the OP. I think I've said what I need to on the family proclamation and the erroneous notion that homosexuality continues beyond the grave.

I think the physical cravings to put gender attractions into sexual practice cease with death, but the emotional craving can continue until its possessor chooses to submit and channel it into the far greater blessings and the person's spirit is sanctified in understanding of the Lord's plan. And of course the resurrection promises perfect brains and bodies that can benefit according to the glory of the spirit by which they are quickened.

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27 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

So, tobacco addiction does continue beyond the grave, but homoerotic desire does not. Got it.

Not even remotely what I said.

Did you miss the post where I said I agree with you and disagree with Elder Rector? Why are you continuing to hammer me on this? I explicitly said I do not think tobacco addiction continues beyond the grave.

I've noticed that with the new, supposedly improved, board software, it can take 15 minutes or longer for posts to show up. Maybe that's your problem.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not even remotely what I said.

Did you miss the post where I said I agree with you and disagree with Elder Rector? What does it take?

I was just messing with you, Scott. :)

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13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It is part of the personality, psychology, and soul of the individual. It's part of who they are. The atonement resurrects the body and it washes us clean of our past sinful behaviors but it doesn't instantly morph us into something we're not.

The Atonement does enable us to change into godly people. Just as the resurrection occurs some time after mortality, so does the perfection of our becoming like Heavenly Father.

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On 5/2/2016 at 2:11 AM, canard78 said:

Any other thoughts?

I'm surprised people so closely scrutinize Joseph's first account. Especially Christians who should understand much better since they have to deal varying accounts of four Gospels. 

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24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

We are all in the process of becoming something. We are all a mixture of good, bad, ugly, and average. In the spirit world will we suddenly forget what our favorite foods taste like or no longer have any desire for physical touch? That does sound hellish.

Having the attitude of repentance is great but it doesn't mean our desires, personality, and predispositions will magically disappear or rearrange. I don't understand how resurrection will magically make someone not gay. It's not a physical ailment. It is part of the personality, psychology, and soul of the individual. It's part of who they are. The atonement resurrects the body and it washes us clean of our past sinful behaviors but it doesn't instantly morph us into something we're not.

 

Quite a stretch to equate a taste for strawberry shortcake with an inclination toward sexual perversion.

 

Quote

Read Elder Oaks "The Challenge to Become". The parable he shares illustrates my point. The father could not give his son His character. The son had to become a person of character and become like his father. There was no magical transference of godly character. To me, claiming that a person suddenly has an important characteristic change, sounds like claiming God makes us what he wants instead of allowing us to become.

The freedom to choose applies to this life. And it does not carry with it the freedom to escape the consequences of choice.

One does not have license to continue sinning while in the presence of God or while inhabiting one of the degrees of glory. So if that is what you mean by denying "an important characteristic change," I think there's a surprise in store for you.

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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1 minute ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I'm surprised people so closely scrutinize Joseph's first account. Especially Christians who should understand much better since they have to deal varying accounts of four Gospels. 

Some people find the differences significant, and they scrutinize accordingly. For me, the account is interesting because of its absence in early LDS history and in the recollections of those around Joseph, both friend and foe. I don't know what it means, but it's interesting.

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18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Quite a stretch to equate a taste for strawberry shortcake with an inclination toward sexual perversion.

Why is it a stretch to say that both kinds of cravings and desires continue into the next life?

Quote

CV75- I think the physical cravings to put gender attractions into sexual practice cease with death, but the emotional craving can continue until its possessor chooses to submit and channel it into the far greater blessings and the person's spirit is sanctified in understanding of the Lord's plan.

Would a physical craving for a spousal relationship cease at death? Or is it just one specific kind of physical craving that ceases at death?

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      a. Yes, I explained this in my response.
      b. No, I left this out of my response.
        29. What is an example of a truth that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why the truth you chose can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        30. What is an example of an ordinance that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why the ordinance you chose can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        31. What is an example of priesthood authority that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why this authority of the priesthood can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        32. Share your personal thoughts on the importance of the Prophet Joseph Smith. (1 mark)
    • By blueglass
      Really impressed with Kate Holbrook's interview with Terryl Givens.  She's thoughtful, candid, and inspiring as she speaks about her persistence to get a PhD and work full time for the church as a manger of church history.  She's working on a project with Lisa Tate on the history of the young women's organization.  
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2G7k1ggz7k&feature=em-uploademail
      One thing I caught that I hadn't heard before was when Terryl asks her about whether she felt a sense of loss and a sense of jubilation when studying the history of the RS.  Joseph envisioned a more collaborative relationship with the male priesthood, more autonomy, abundance of spiritual gifts, authority to administer ordinances including healing by the laying of hands.  Kate responds that she understands the hyperfocus on this time period, but she feels there is a lost opportunity in recognizing the accomplishments of the women of the 20th century - she then backtracks a bit and says:
      "I don't want to say that their isn't a difference, between - a time when a woman was able to say I have this terrific idea she's say the General RS president and she goes and talks to the president of the church about it.  That is certainly different than now, when she goes and talks to someone in the presiding bishopric, and it has to go through several levels to even get to the president.  There is a loss, and there is a difference."
      I had no idea that the General RS president did not have direct access to the quorum of the 12, and first presidency?  Why in 3 heavens does the general RS president still have such an auxiliary level of access to the presiding apostolic quorum, access to financial influence through Pres Bishopric perhaps, but no real budget to work with?  No seat on the correlation committee?  
      Kate has a great story about how Ardeth Greene Kapp (General YW president 84-92') while receiving a downpour of revelation would use innovative, clever ways and technology to push the ideas upward through the hierarchy.  
    • By blueglass
      A number of church historians recently published a book through Oxford entitled "Foundational Texts of Mormonism: Examining Major Early Sources” (Oxford University Press, $74, 448 pages.)
      In the last chapter (13) pg 390 the historian Ronald Barney quotes Donald Enders, the senior curator at the Museum of Church History and Art in Salt Lake City where he states, "There is no evidence, that Joseph told his mother that he had talked face-to-face with God. Certainly his mother never claimed to have heard such a declaration."
      I knew that very few had heard about Joseph's first vision in the earliest days of the church, I didn't know his own mother was unaware. Then I was digging through the JSP where they have Lucy Mack's original 1844 - 1845 history draft, and I found a first vision account similar to the 1835 account in which the unnamed personage testifies that Jesus is the Christ in the 3rd person.  Also compare with Lucy Mack Smith's letter to her brother Solomon Mack, Waterloo, New York, 6 January 1831
      https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1844-1845/40
      "our sons were actively employed in assisting their Father to cut down the grain and storing it away in order, for winter One evening we were sitting till quite late conversing upon the subject of the diversity of churches that had risen up in the world and the many thousand opinions in existence as to the truths contained in scripture Joseph who never said many words upon any subject but always seemed to reflect more deeply than common persons of his age upon everything of a religious nature This After we ceased conversation he went to bed <and was pondering in his mind which of the churches were the true one.> an but he had not laid there long till <he saw> a bright <light> entered the room where he lay he looked up and saw an angel of the Lord stood <standing> by him The angel spoke, "I perceive that you are enquiring in your mind which is the true church there is not a true church on Earth No not one Nor <and> has not been since Peter took the Keys <of the Melchesidec priesthood after the order of God> into the Kingdom of Heaven the churches that are now upon the Earth are all man made churches."
    • By mfbukowski
      There is a fascinating podcast recently published by Interpreter of an interview with Sharalyn D. Howcraft about early foundational documents of Mormonism in which the difference between "what really happened" and how history is recorded.
      For those like me who do not like podcasts, there is also a transcript which is a pretty short and totally fascinating read.
      I highly recommend both.
      "What really happened" as I have said forever is virtually unknowable, so all we are stuck with are historical accounts which may or may not be "true representations"
      I say this often to underscore the necessity of being guided by the Spirit in all matters, regarding virtually every document we read as "HIS-STORY" rather than necessarily "what really happened" which in a historical sense is unknowable in most cases.  Observed recorded events like the assassination of Lincoln of course are "facts" and those are another case.
      But when it comes to hearsay, questions of motivation, how ideas evolved or what ideas were developed by whomever, we just have to be cautious and in my opinion,  regard everything as a story written by a human being and all human beings have a point to make, prejudices to expose or hide, and in some cases the "truth" is simply impossible to know.
      So especially in religious matters, we must follow our "gut" or in more regular Mormon parlance, "follow the Spirit".
      This podcast and transcription illustrate these points extremely well.
      http://interpreterfoundation.org/a-closer-look-at-the-foundational-texts-of-mormonism-with-sharalyn-d-howcroft/
      This link goes directly to the transcript
      http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/6/d/c/6dcfab4b17c23c6a/LDSP_Sharalyn_D._Howcroft.pdf?c_id=20782383&expiration=1525899791&hwt=88c7d8ed9c3cfaf190629e1f5f8ac493
       
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