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First vision accounts getting detailed attention in CES devotional


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6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Why is it a stretch to say that both kinds of cravings and desires continue into the next life?

Would a physical craving for a spousal relationship cease at death? Or is it just one specific kind of physical craving that ceases at death?

As I've stated previously on multiple occasions, I view homsexuality as a disorder that, like all disorders pertaining to mortality, will not be perpetuated beyond the grave. The body is left behind after death and is made whole in the resurrection.

 

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33 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Some people find the differences significant, and they scrutinize accordingly. For me, the account is interesting because of its absence in early LDS history and in the recollections of those around Joseph, both friend and foe. I don't know what it means, but it's interesting.

History is at best an incomplete and imperfect record of reality. With that in mind, best not to rely on it inordinately.

 

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51 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I was just messing with you, Scott. :)

You misunderstood me, then missed my post where I sought to clarify that I was agreeing with you, and now you're trying to save face for continuing to batter me. Admit it, jkwilliams. :nea:

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I've stated previously on multiple occasions, I view homsexuality as a disorder that, like all disorders pertaining to mortality, will not be perpetuated beyond the grave. The body is left behind after death and is made whole in the resurrection.

 

What kind of disorder? Physical? Emotional? Mental? Social?

What I don't understand, and you haven't explained, is how a physical resurrection heals a disorder that isn't physical?

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2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You misunderstood me, then missed my post where I sought to clarify that I was agreeing with you, and now your* trying to save face for continuing to batter me. Admit it, jkwilliams.

*you're

I normally resist the urge to correct typos like that but I know that, like me, you'd appreciate the gesture ;)

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5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You misunderstood me, then missed my post where I sought to clarify that I was agreeing with you, and now your trying to save face for continuing to batter me. Admit it, jkwilliams.

I was not trying to batter you, Scott, but I'm sorry if I misread you. 

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19 minutes ago, canard78 said:

*you're

I normally resist the urge to correct typos like that but I know that, like me, you'd appreciate the gesture ;)

I actually caught it and went back and fixed it before I saw your post. But thanks just the same.

As I've said on past occasions, I don't claim to write flawlessly on first draft, but I'm perfectionist enough that I'll go back and fix an error if I spot it. That's why nearly all my posts have "edited" time stamps on them.

Edited to add:

Damn. I made an error in this post as well. canard78 is going to spot it before I have time to fix it.

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

What kind of disorder? Physical? Emotional? Mental? Social?

What I don't understand, and you haven't explained, is how a physical resurrection heals a disorder that isn't physical?

How can I explain a divine miracle of any sort, let alone one as comprehensive and supernal as the universal resurrection brought about by the healing power of Christ's sacrifice? Isn't being unexplainable one of the things that makes a miracle miraculous?

Besides, many people argue that homosexuality is physical in that people are born with it.

Edited to add:

Often priesthood blessings are administered for afflictions that are not physical in nature. They may be emotional or mental.* When healing occurs by virtue of the priesthood blessing, we don't question the mechanism by which it has happened. We just accept it as a blessing from God.

 

*When a priesthood holder consecrates oil, typically he will consecrate it for "the blessing of the sick and the afflicted," indicating that priesthood blessings are not just for physical illness.

 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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46 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Would a physical craving for a spousal relationship cease at death? Or is it just one specific kind of physical craving that ceases at death?

I think that since there is no body, there are no physical stimuli in the spirit world, and no physical cravings. This is one reason even the righteous view it as a prison. We do bring with us our memories, thoughts, desires, emotions, etc., and inasmuch as we have brought these into alignment with the companionship of the Holy Ghost, we are prepared for a better resurrection. Of course some of that perfecting process must occur in the spirit world, and for this reason the Gospel is preached, and both the ministers and the recipients are edified and perfected as they progress toward their “last day” of resurrection and judgement.

The spirit and body are meant to be connected to function optimally; in the eternal world this brings a fulness of joy and in this world offers a fulness of experience and probation.

Not all emotional cravings (even spousal) are wholesome, righteous or congruent with the covenants of God. These need to be tamed, healed, etc. It is said that these are easier dealt with while in the flesh, and I believe that is because the same connection that makes a fullness of joy possible in the resurrection also makes joy in the Gospel possible in the mortal realm. I think the Lord’s Atonement greatly facilitates that healing of cravings that are found to be no fault of the soul suffering from them, and facilitates through faith the healing of cravings that are result of unwarranted nurturing. For example, many cravings pertaining to behavior and relationships (in this instance we are talking sexual) are poor substitutes for the companionship of the Holy Ghost and less-than-ideal coping mechanisms that cannot bring true wholeness.

So I think any and all cravings of and in the flesh can have an emotional component that calls for adjustment and healing.

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think the physical cravings to put gender attractions into sexual practice cease with death, but the emotional craving can continue until its possessor chooses to submit and channel it into the far greater blessings and the person's spirit is sanctified in understanding of the Lord's plan. And of course the resurrection promises perfect brains and bodies that can benefit according to the glory of the spirit by which they are quickened.

Despite what most Mormons want to paint homosexuals like, it is the emotional connection that is the essence of who we are attracted to.  The sex, just like in straight people is a fulfilment of that connection.  For me, wiping myself of the love I have for my beloved partner makes heaven unappealing.  I would imagine many straight people would feel the same way.  

You are basically saying that while reparative therapy does not work on earth, somehow it will when we die.  If it can work in heaven, why can't it work here.  Call me skeptical.

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9 minutes ago, california boy said:

Despite what most Mormons want to paint homosexuals like, it is the emotional connection that is the essence of who we are attracted to.  The sex, just like in straight people is a fulfilment of that connection.  For me, wiping myself of the love I have for my beloved partner makes heaven unappealing.  I would imagine many straight people would feel the same way.  

You are basically saying that while reparative therapy does not work on earth, somehow it will when we die.  If it can work in heaven, why can't it work here.  Call me skeptical.

I'm glad you have a loving partner and you have found happiness and joy in that relationship. Life is good, no matter what other people tell you.

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19 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm glad you have a loving partner and you have found happiness and joy in that relationship. Life is good, no matter what other people tell you.

As I said earlier in this thread, my chief concern is for people who want to live according to the laws and commandments of God and can be blessed by the assurance that they will not be stuck forever with homosexual tendencies. That the healing power of the Savior's resurrection and atonement applies just as much to unwanted sexual attraction as it does to anything else.

They are entitled to receive that assurance if it is in accordance with the position of the Church. And we know that it is.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I said earlier in this thread, my chief concern is for people who want to live according to the laws and commandments of God and can be blessed by the assurance that they will not be stuck forever with homosexual tendencies. That the healing power of the Savior's resurrection and atonement applies just as much to unwanted sexual attraction as it does to anything else.

They are entitled to receive that assurance if it is in accordance with the position of the Church. And we know that it is.

I wasn't responding to you but to the idea that homosexuality is nothing more than "cravings" that will be "fixed" in the next life, implying that people like california boy can't be happy and fulfilled in this life. Love is more than sexual desire.

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52 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm glad you have a loving partner and you have found happiness and joy in that relationship. Life is good, no matter what other people tell you.

I am a very lucky guy.  I thank God for the blessings in my life.

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43 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I said earlier in this thread, my chief concern is for people who want to live according to the laws and commandments of God and can be blessed by the assurance that they will not be stuck forever with homosexual tendencies. That the healing power of the Savior's resurrection and atonement applies just as much to unwanted sexual attraction as it does to anything else.

They are entitled to receive that assurance if it is in accordance with the position of the Church. And we know that it is.

I am sure CB is just so happy that he is not "stuck" with loving the one he is with.  I know what you are saying but that sounds horrible. 

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39 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am sure CB is just so happy that he is not "stuck" with loving the one he is with.  I know what you are saying but that sounds horrible. 

He is entitled to his own beliefs in this matter and to come to terms with them however he will.

But what has been repeated over and over on this board (and, no doubt, elsewhere) is that, within the Mormon paradigm, there is "no hope" for those beset with homosexuality and who don't want any part of it, because they are doomed to endure it forever.

That is a falsehood. The Church does not teach that. I have documented that the Church teaches just the opposite. And those with homosexual tendencies who are determined to obey the laws and commandments of God are entitled to know that, for whatever assurance and hope that it can bring them.

Again, they are the ones I sympathize with and desire to bring comfort to.

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He is entitled to his own beliefs in this matter and to come to terms with them however he will.

But what has been repeated over and over on this board (and, no doubt, elsewhere) is that, within the Mormon paradigm, there is "no hope" for those beset with homosexuality and don't want any part of it, because they are doomed to endure it forever.

That is a falsehood. The Church does not teach that. I have documented that the Church teaches just the opposite. And those with homsexual tendencies who are determined to obey the laws and commandments of God are entitled to know that, for whatever assurance and hope that it can bring them.

Again, they are the ones I sympathize with and desire to bring comfort to.

Like I say, I do understand where YOU are coming from.  I guess it was just the word "stuck"..that through me.  No matter what, we can't diminish the love the one has for another.  But I see your point.  For CB..I wish him great hope to be with his partner forever.

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15 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Like I say, I do understand where YOU are coming from.  I guess it was just the word "stuck"..that through me.  No matter what, we can't diminish the love the one has for another.  But I see your point.  For CB..I wish him great hope to be with his partner forever.

You are a very compassionate person.

 

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2 hours ago, california boy said:

Despite what most Mormons want to paint homosexuals like, it is the emotional connection that is the essence of who we are attracted to.  The sex, just like in straight people is a fulfilment of that connection.  For me, wiping myself of the love I have for my beloved partner makes heaven unappealing.  I would imagine many straight people would feel the same way.  

You are basically saying that while reparative therapy does not work on earth, somehow it will when we die.  If it can work in heaven, why can't it work here.  Call me skeptical.

It seems pretty clear to me that you didn't understand a word I wrote!

But it's all there for you to review until you understand.

Here: I copy-and-pasted what I wrote to make it easy for you:

I believe we carry all of our emotional appetites into the spirit world, where we can continue to reign them in by the power and companionship of the Holy Spirit until we fill our souls with that exceeding great joy the Lord provides through His covenants, if we are only willing (1 Nephi 8:12). Everyone is given the opportunity to do this.

I think the physical cravings to put gender attractions into sexual practice cease with death, but the emotional craving can continue until its possessor chooses to submit and channel it into the far greater blessings and the person's spirit is sanctified in understanding of the Lord's plan. And of course the resurrection promises perfect brains and bodies that can benefit according to the glory of the spirit by which they are quickened.

The Atonement enables us to change into godly people. Just as the resurrection occurs sometime after mortality, so does the perfection of our becoming like Heavenly Father.

In the spirit world, I think that since there is no body, there are no physical stimuli and no physical cravings in that world. This is one reason even the righteous view it as a prison. We do bring with us our memories, thoughts, desires, emotions, etc., and inasmuch as we have brought these into alignment with the companionship of the Holy Ghost, we are prepared for a better resurrection. Of course some of that perfecting process must occur in the spirit world, and for this reason the Gospel is preached, and both the ministers and the recipients are edified and perfected as they progress toward their “last day” of resurrection and judgement.

The spirit and body are meant to be connected to function optimally; in the eternal world this brings a fulness of joy and in this world offers a fulness of experience and probation.

Not all emotional cravings (even spousal) are wholesome, righteous or congruent with the covenants of God. These need to be tamed, healed, etc. It is said that these are easier dealt with while in the flesh, and I believe that is because the same connection that makes a fullness of joy possible in the resurrection also makes joy in the Gospel possible in the mortal realm. I think the Lord’s Atonement greatly facilitates that healing of cravings that are found to be no fault of the soul suffering from them, and facilitates through faith the healing of cravings that are result of unwarranted nurturing. For example, many cravings pertaining to behavior and relationships (in this instance we are talking sexual) are poor substitutes for the companionship of the Holy Ghost and less-than-ideal coping mechanisms that cannot bring true wholeness.

So I think any and all cravings of and in the flesh can have an emotional component that calls for adjustment and healing.

Where did I ever once mention sexual feelings in terms of homo-, hetero-, or any other kind? Hint: I didn't! So cut out the misrepresentations and accusations -- that is the tendency you really need to worry about!

Edited by CV75
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16 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Some people find the differences significant, and they scrutinize accordingly. For me, the account is interesting because of its absence in early LDS history and in the recollections of those around Joseph, both friend and foe. I don't know what it means, but it's interesting.

Fine, by all means scrutinize........But if you are a Christian (atheists get a hall pass here, since they believe none of it), start from Gospels before jumping Joseph's "First Vision" Bandwagon, because they are ridiculed by historians on this matter (I'm not a historian).

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12 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Fine, by all means scrutinize........But if you are a Christian (atheists get a hall pass here, since they believe none of it), start from Gospels before jumping Joseph's "First Vision" Bandwagon, because they are ridiculed by historians on this matter (I'm not a historian).

I am not asking for permission to scrutinize. I think the absence of any mention of the First Vision among Joseph's friends and family (and foes) makes no sense if the account in Joseph Smith - History is accurate, but I'm not sure what to make of it. I would say I'm kind of a hopeful agnostic at this point, so maybe I get a temporary hall pass?

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Back on the topic of the First Vision-

I attended Gospel Essentials class on Sunday where the lesson was about the modern church and the focus was the first vision.

This class was mostly attended by less active and non-members. Any guesses about how the first vision was handled?

The Joseph Smith History was read. THAT is what literally happened. Anyone who says differently is under the power of Satan. It's as if no one has even heard of the various first vision accounts, or the firesides, or any other treatment of multiple accounts. It's what they continue to teach new/potential members. It's a real shame.

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16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

History is at best an incomplete and imperfect record of reality. With that in mind, best not to rely on it inordinately.

 

A strange thing to say from an adherent of a church built entirely on historical truth claims.

The First Vision is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Joseph Smith having the gold plates is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Angelic restoration of Priesthood is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Are you sure this is a road you want to go down, Scott?  ;)

 

 

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1 minute ago, consiglieri said:

A strange thing to say from an adherent of a church built entirely on historical truth claims.

The First Vision is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Joseph Smith having the gold plates is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Angelic restoration of Priesthood is a historical claim.  But we shouldn't "rely on it inordinately."

Are you sure this is a road you want to go down, Scott?  ;)

 

 

Hey, I'm with Scott on this one!

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41 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I am not asking for permission to scrutinize. I think the absence of any mention of the First Vision among Joseph's friends and family (and foes) makes no sense if the account in Joseph Smith - History is accurate, but I'm not sure what to make of it. I would say I'm kind of a hopeful agnostic at this point, so maybe I get a temporary hall pass?

Okay, jk, are you looking to make sense of all this? What part of Gospels makes sense? what part of 5 books of Genesis make sense...

Yes I admit in my early skeptic years I did pile on Mormon History but I realized quickly the fish smelled from head, not the tail......

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      a. Yes, I explained this in my response.
      b. No, I left this out of my response.
        29. What is an example of a truth that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why the truth you chose can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        30. What is an example of an ordinance that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why the ordinance you chose can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        31. What is an example of priesthood authority that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why this authority of the priesthood can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        32. Share your personal thoughts on the importance of the Prophet Joseph Smith. (1 mark)
    • By blueglass
      Really impressed with Kate Holbrook's interview with Terryl Givens.  She's thoughtful, candid, and inspiring as she speaks about her persistence to get a PhD and work full time for the church as a manger of church history.  She's working on a project with Lisa Tate on the history of the young women's organization.  
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2G7k1ggz7k&feature=em-uploademail
      One thing I caught that I hadn't heard before was when Terryl asks her about whether she felt a sense of loss and a sense of jubilation when studying the history of the RS.  Joseph envisioned a more collaborative relationship with the male priesthood, more autonomy, abundance of spiritual gifts, authority to administer ordinances including healing by the laying of hands.  Kate responds that she understands the hyperfocus on this time period, but she feels there is a lost opportunity in recognizing the accomplishments of the women of the 20th century - she then backtracks a bit and says:
      "I don't want to say that their isn't a difference, between - a time when a woman was able to say I have this terrific idea she's say the General RS president and she goes and talks to the president of the church about it.  That is certainly different than now, when she goes and talks to someone in the presiding bishopric, and it has to go through several levels to even get to the president.  There is a loss, and there is a difference."
      I had no idea that the General RS president did not have direct access to the quorum of the 12, and first presidency?  Why in 3 heavens does the general RS president still have such an auxiliary level of access to the presiding apostolic quorum, access to financial influence through Pres Bishopric perhaps, but no real budget to work with?  No seat on the correlation committee?  
      Kate has a great story about how Ardeth Greene Kapp (General YW president 84-92') while receiving a downpour of revelation would use innovative, clever ways and technology to push the ideas upward through the hierarchy.  
    • By blueglass
      A number of church historians recently published a book through Oxford entitled "Foundational Texts of Mormonism: Examining Major Early Sources” (Oxford University Press, $74, 448 pages.)
      In the last chapter (13) pg 390 the historian Ronald Barney quotes Donald Enders, the senior curator at the Museum of Church History and Art in Salt Lake City where he states, "There is no evidence, that Joseph told his mother that he had talked face-to-face with God. Certainly his mother never claimed to have heard such a declaration."
      I knew that very few had heard about Joseph's first vision in the earliest days of the church, I didn't know his own mother was unaware. Then I was digging through the JSP where they have Lucy Mack's original 1844 - 1845 history draft, and I found a first vision account similar to the 1835 account in which the unnamed personage testifies that Jesus is the Christ in the 3rd person.  Also compare with Lucy Mack Smith's letter to her brother Solomon Mack, Waterloo, New York, 6 January 1831
      https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/lucy-mack-smith-history-1844-1845/40
      "our sons were actively employed in assisting their Father to cut down the grain and storing it away in order, for winter One evening we were sitting till quite late conversing upon the subject of the diversity of churches that had risen up in the world and the many thousand opinions in existence as to the truths contained in scripture Joseph who never said many words upon any subject but always seemed to reflect more deeply than common persons of his age upon everything of a religious nature This After we ceased conversation he went to bed <and was pondering in his mind which of the churches were the true one.> an but he had not laid there long till <he saw> a bright <light> entered the room where he lay he looked up and saw an angel of the Lord stood <standing> by him The angel spoke, "I perceive that you are enquiring in your mind which is the true church there is not a true church on Earth No not one Nor <and> has not been since Peter took the Keys <of the Melchesidec priesthood after the order of God> into the Kingdom of Heaven the churches that are now upon the Earth are all man made churches."
    • By mfbukowski
      There is a fascinating podcast recently published by Interpreter of an interview with Sharalyn D. Howcraft about early foundational documents of Mormonism in which the difference between "what really happened" and how history is recorded.
      For those like me who do not like podcasts, there is also a transcript which is a pretty short and totally fascinating read.
      I highly recommend both.
      "What really happened" as I have said forever is virtually unknowable, so all we are stuck with are historical accounts which may or may not be "true representations"
      I say this often to underscore the necessity of being guided by the Spirit in all matters, regarding virtually every document we read as "HIS-STORY" rather than necessarily "what really happened" which in a historical sense is unknowable in most cases.  Observed recorded events like the assassination of Lincoln of course are "facts" and those are another case.
      But when it comes to hearsay, questions of motivation, how ideas evolved or what ideas were developed by whomever, we just have to be cautious and in my opinion,  regard everything as a story written by a human being and all human beings have a point to make, prejudices to expose or hide, and in some cases the "truth" is simply impossible to know.
      So especially in religious matters, we must follow our "gut" or in more regular Mormon parlance, "follow the Spirit".
      This podcast and transcription illustrate these points extremely well.
      http://interpreterfoundation.org/a-closer-look-at-the-foundational-texts-of-mormonism-with-sharalyn-d-howcroft/
      This link goes directly to the transcript
      http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/6/d/c/6dcfab4b17c23c6a/LDSP_Sharalyn_D._Howcroft.pdf?c_id=20782383&expiration=1525899791&hwt=88c7d8ed9c3cfaf190629e1f5f8ac493
       
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