Steve Noel Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) Muhammad of Mecca said that the angel Gabriel appeared to him and gave him revelations from God over a 23 year period. These revelations were collected and published as the Qur'an. According to these revelations Jesus was not God, nor the Son of God, but only a prophet of God. According to these revelations Jesus was not the Savior of the world. According to these revelations Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world. On what basis do Latter-day Saints reject this alleged revelation from God through his alleged prophet Muhammad? Edited May 1, 2016 by Steve Noel
BCSpace Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 Quote On what basis do Latter-day Saints reject this alleged revelation from God through his alleged prophet Muhammad? I think in your comment you stated some excellent reasons, and the best basis, for LDS or any other Christian, to reject Muhammad as a prophet: "According to these revelations Jesus was not God, nor the Son of God, but only a prophet of God. According to these revelations Jesus was not the Savior of the world. According to these revelations Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world." 3
boblloyd91 Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 There are a plethora of LDS opinions on this subject, as there are in more mainstream Christianity. As mentioned above, what you just said is why I reject Islam's truth claims. That and the fruit it bears. I have known several Muslim people who are real salt of the earth, but overall it's militancy and rejection of Christ's atoning mission makes it hard for me to accept its truth claims
Traela Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 No witnesses. Other people saw the gold plates, other people were involved in the priesthood ordinations, other people saw angels. Islam, OTOH, is based solely on one person's word. 1
3DOP Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 (edited) Steve hey... Before becoming Catholic, I seriously considered the claims of various followers of Muhammad as well as Joseph Smith. Its your journey. May the good God lead you. I don't imagine to show the way. But I am glad to see you raise this question. As it relates to who and what the true God is, followers of Muhammed reject traditional Christianity because of a rigorous monotheism that will not entertain a moderate monotheism. In the same way, I think followers of Joseph Smith reject traditional Christian views of the Godhead because of a rigorous henotheism that will not entertain a moderate monotheism. This post is certainly not to prove what is true and what is false. It is more about what would best befit the being we call God. It is to point out how it is interesting that Muslims condemn traditional Christianity because it is immanent. It is to point out how it is interesting that Mormonism condemns traditional Christianity because it is transcendent. Traditional Christianity alone maintains that God has been revealed as both transcendent and immanent. Mormons and Muslims agree that God is either the one or the other but not both. The positions of both Mormons and Muslims, as far as I can tell, are both pretty sound philosophically. It seems more difficult to defend the two apparently contrasting claims about God. Immanence to me means close. Near me. Bridging the gaps. Transcendence to me means distant. Infinitely beyond me. Impossible to comprehend. Traditional Christianity, if it can be accused of being illogical, is most vulnerable because it insists upon both opposites as being true. I do not know how to reconcile the logic. I believe God is both. Edited May 1, 2016 by 3DOP 2
rodheadlee Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 Quran verse 4:157 and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus. They do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for an atonement which goes against all we believe.
Storm Rider Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 32 minutes ago, Steve Noel said: Muhammad of Mecca said that the angel Gabriel appeared to him and gave him revelations from God over a 23 year period. These revelations were collected and published as the Qur'an. According to these revelations Jesus was not God, nor the Son of God, but only a prophet of God. According to these revelations Jesus was not the Savior of the world. According to these revelations Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world. On what basis do Latter-day Saints reject this alleged revelation from God through his alleged prophet Muhammad? Hello Steve, good to hear from you again. I lived five years in the Middle East and came to know many wonderful Muslims and studied Islam for many more years. There are some similarities between Islam and the Church of Jesus Christ when the topic is limited to the beginnings of the religion. I have often heard these similarities pointed out by critics, but I have never been persuaded by them. When I look for similarities I begin at what do the religions most value. The Savior, Jesus Christ, while some may consider him a prophet, he is infinitely more than that. As we both recognize that none can be saved under heaven except by and through Jesus Christ. Islam fails at the thing that the Gospel of Jesus Christ values highly - there is no one except Jesus to whom we turn for our salvation. Islam may teach some truths; it may teach some paths to holiness, but it consciously rejects the Son of God. This is the same problem I find with Judaism; it fails to recognize the Son of God and for many similar reasons used by Muslims. When Jesus Christ is so much a part of our teachings it is challenging for me to understand how he is not capable of saving LDS, according to other Christians, because other teachings are so "important" that Mormons are put beyond the veil of Christianity. I never thought so little of Christ and his value that he could be cast aside because there is disagreement on other teachings.
CV75 Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 42 minutes ago, Steve Noel said: Muhammad of Mecca said that the angel Gabriel appeared to him and gave him revelations from God over a 23 year period. These revelations were collected and published as the Qur'an. According to these revelations Jesus was not God, nor the Son of God, but only a prophet of God. According to these revelations Jesus was not the Savior of the world. According to these revelations Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world. On what basis do Latter-day Saints reject this alleged revelation from God through his alleged prophet Muhammad? My personal witness from the Holy Ghost is that Jesus is the Christ, His restored Church is the LDS Church, the Book of Mormon is true, and that His current mortal servants hold the keys of authority today. I don’t define or frame my relationship with God in terms of rejecting others’ claims, and so have no reason to go about telling people what I reject. I'm not sure what circumstance would require me to do so. I don't think the LDS Church presents in such terms either.
Steve Noel Posted May 1, 2016 Author Posted May 1, 2016 42 minutes ago, BCSpace said: I think in your comment you stated some excellent reasons, and the best basis, for LDS or any other Christian, to reject Muhammad as a prophet: "According to these revelations Jesus was not God, nor the Son of God, but only a prophet of God. According to these revelations Jesus was not the Savior of the world. According to these revelations Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world." Okay, on what basis do you say that these teachings are incorrect? What standard are you comparing these teachings to? He would argue that he got his doctrine by revelation from God.
Steve Noel Posted May 1, 2016 Author Posted May 1, 2016 41 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said: There are a plethora of LDS opinions on this subject, as there are in more mainstream Christianity. As mentioned above, what you just said is why I reject Islam's truth claims. That and the fruit it bears. I have known several Muslim people who are real salt of the earth, but overall it's militancy and rejection of Christ's atoning mission makes it hard for me to accept its truth claims I will probe a little deeper and ask you what I asked BCSpace. On what basis do you say that these teachings are incorrect? What standard are you comparing these teachings to?
JLHPROF Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 How based on Mormon teaching do I know Muhammad's angel and revelation was false? "How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By his contradicting a former revelation." - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 214. You said yourself - According to these revelations Jesus was not God, nor the Son of God, but only a prophet of God. According to these revelations Jesus was not the Savior of the world. According to these revelations Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world. That contradicts a whole bunch of former revelation.
Steve Noel Posted May 1, 2016 Author Posted May 1, 2016 42 minutes ago, Traela said: No witnesses. Other people saw the gold plates, other people were involved in the priesthood ordinations, other people saw angels. Islam, OTOH, is based solely on one person's word. Thank you for this response. This is a clear basis or reason for rejecting Muhammad's claims. I am not an expert on Muhammad, but I do believe that others were present at times when he claimed to receive these revelations. They tell of how he would go into a trance like state while they were occurring. Does that affect you opinion?
Steve Noel Posted May 1, 2016 Author Posted May 1, 2016 39 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: Quran verse 4:157 and their statement that they murdered Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, when, in fact, they could not have murdered him or crucified him. They, in fact, murdered someone else by mistake. Even those who disputed (the question of whether or not Jesus was murdered) did not have a shred of evidence. All that they knew about it was mere conjecture. They certainly could not have murdered Jesus. They do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for an atonement which goes against all we believe. I understand that what they are teaching is opposed to what you believe, but on what basis is it wrong? Muhammad claims that he got this from God through the angel Gabriel. He would state that what you teach about Jesus goes against what God revealed to him about Jesus. How do you determine that he is wrong?
boblloyd91 Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 11 minutes ago, Steve Noel said: I will probe a little deeper and ask you what I asked BCSpace. On what basis do you say that these teachings are incorrect? What standard are you comparing these teachings to? I believe the testimony of the scriptures regarding the divinity of Jesus Christ. I also base it off my experiences with Christ where I believe I have witnessed healing, prophecy, and other spiritual gifts in the context of having faith in him. Any thing that disputes the scriptures and my experience is obviously something I will have a hard time believing.
Steve Noel Posted May 1, 2016 Author Posted May 1, 2016 33 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Hello Steve, good to hear from you again. I lived five years in the Middle East and came to know many wonderful Muslims and studied Islam for many more years. There are some similarities between Islam and the Church of Jesus Christ when the topic is limited to the beginnings of the religion. I have often heard these similarities pointed out by critics, but I have never been persuaded by them. When I look for similarities I begin at what do the religions most value. The Savior, Jesus Christ, while some may consider him a prophet, he is infinitely more than that. As we both recognize that none can be saved under heaven except by and through Jesus Christ. Islam fails at the thing that the Gospel of Jesus Christ values highly - there is no one except Jesus to whom we turn for our salvation. Islam may teach some truths; it may teach some paths to holiness, but it consciously rejects the Son of God. This is the same problem I find with Judaism; it fails to recognize the Son of God and for many similar reasons used by Muslims. When Jesus Christ is so much a part of our teachings it is challenging for me to understand how he is not capable of saving LDS, according to other Christians, because other teachings are so "important" that Mormons are put beyond the veil of Christianity. I never thought so little of Christ and his value that he could be cast aside because there is disagreement on other teachings. Good to interact here with you as well. My question is meant to probe how Latter-day Saints judge teachings/revelations. Evangelicals insist that all teachings and experiences must be judged by Scripture. If someone claims that an angel gave them a revelation from God that does not agree with Scripture, then we reject that revelation. On this basis, Evangelicals reject the teachings/revelations of Muhammad. On this same basis, Evangelicals say that the teachings and revelations given to Joseph Smith were not from God. I am trying here to understand the basis for LDS rejection of teachings/revelations claimed to be from God. 2
rodheadlee Posted May 1, 2016 Posted May 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, Steve Noel said: I understand that what they are teaching is opposed to what you believe, but on what basis is it wrong? Muhammad claims that he got this from God through the angel Gabriel. He would state that what you teach about Jesus goes against what God revealed to him about Jesus. How do you determine that he is wrong? Through a manifestaion of the Holy Spirit. Prayer, ask God, listen for the answer.
Steve Noel Posted May 1, 2016 Author Posted May 1, 2016 36 minutes ago, CV75 said: My personal witness from the Holy Ghost is that Jesus is the Christ, His restored Church is the LDS Church, the Book of Mormon is true, and that His current mortal servants hold the keys of authority today. I don’t define or frame my relationship with God in terms of rejecting others’ claims, and so have no reason to go about telling people what I reject. I'm not sure what circumstance would require me to do so. I don't think the LDS Church presents in such terms either. Muhammad is claiming that he has personal revelation as well. Why is his personal testimony false and your personal testimony true? 1
Guest Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 1 hour ago, Steve Noel said: Muhammad of Mecca said that the angel Gabriel appeared to him and gave him revelations from God over a 23 year period. These revelations were collected and published as the Qur'an. According to these revelations Jesus was not God, nor the Son of God, but only a prophet of God. According to these revelations Jesus was not the Savior of the world. According to these revelations Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world. On what basis do Latter-day Saints reject this alleged revelation from God through his alleged prophet Muhammad? In every way.
boblloyd91 Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 4 minutes ago, Steve Noel said: Good to interact here with you as well. My question is meant to probe how Latter-day Saints judge teachings/revelations. Evangelicals insist that all teachings and experiences must be judged by Scripture. If someone claims that an angel gave them a revelation from God that does not agree with Scripture, then we reject that revelation. On this basis, Evangelicals reject the teachings/revelations of Muhammad. On this same basis, Evangelicals say that the teachings and revelations given to Joseph Smith were not from God. I am trying here to understand the basis for LDS rejection of teachings/revelations claimed to be from God. Similar to what Evangelicals do with Sola Scriptura, LDS do with the standard works and general authorities. There is also the idea of continuing personal revelation where the individual can receive answers for themselves through prayer and study.
cdowis Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Steve Noel said: I will probe a little deeper and ask you what I asked BCSpace. On what basis do you say that these teachings are incorrect? What standard are you comparing these teachings to? For the same I accept astronomy and reject astrology. One gives me correct principles and laws, the other is a mixture of facts and nonsense. I have a certain knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of mankind and that He called Joseph Smith as a prophet, and restored his Gospel. Muhammad's teachings are a mixture of true principles and nonsense. Edited May 2, 2016 by cdowis
CV75 Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Steve Noel said: Muhammad is claiming that he has personal revelation as well. Why is his personal testimony false and your personal testimony true? I don't worry about that; I wouldn't go about trying to tell someone who believes in Mohammad that he was wrong. I can befriend, serve, love and testify of what I know, and that would hopefully inspire someone to take those life-changing steps to find out as I did that what I believe is true. In my experience with Jesus, He invites people to be believing, and to hear and to come unto Him long, long before He tells them they are wrong (or how) or condemns them. Personally, when I think of Mohammad and Islam, I don't think of where they are false. My personal testimony is so brilliant it shows other light wherever it may shine, and that is what draws me and people in general to Christ, not the darkness. Edited May 2, 2016 by CV75 1
Steve Noel Posted May 2, 2016 Author Posted May 2, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: How based on Mormon teaching do I know Muhammad's angel and revelation was false? "How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By his contradicting a former revelation." - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 214. You said yourself - According to these revelations Jesus was not God, nor the Son of God, but only a prophet of God. According to these revelations Jesus was not the Savior of the world. According to these revelations Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world. That contradicts a whole bunch of former revelation. Thank you for sharing this quote from Joseph Smith.
mapman Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 I am actually kind of surprised by the responses since after studying Islam a little bit (I am hardly an expert), I came to feel that he was in fact inspired and that he was a servant of God. I believe that people like Muhammad, Zoroaster, and the Buddha were called by God to write down their wisdom as is taught by the Book of Mormon: "For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written... and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it." (2 Nephi 29:11-12) The belief that Muhammad was inspired of God was reiterated by the First Presidency in 1978: "The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals." (source: https://bycommonconsent.com/2009/03/10/truth-claims/) I have read portions of the Quran (still haven't finished it) and for me it feels like inspired writing. As for why the Quran rejects the divinity of Jesus Christ, there could be many possible reasons, but I think it ultimately boils down to the fact that inspired writings are always limited by human language and in many cases have things that are just incorrect inserted into them (just like with the Bible). It could very well be that what Gabriel told him is not exactly the same as what's in the Quran due to later editing. Muslims hold the Quran to be absolutely perfect, but I have no obligation to do so. I can believe that Jesus Christ is divine and the son of God while still finding much to value in the Quran. Just my opinion, but honestly the responses here really surprise me since I think I'm actually with the church's position on this one. 4
mfbukowski Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Steve Noel said: Muhammad of Mecca said that the angel Gabriel appeared to him and gave him revelations from God over a 23 year period. These revelations were collected and published as the Qur'an. According to these revelations Jesus was not God, nor the Son of God, but only a prophet of God. According to these revelations Jesus was not the Savior of the world. According to these revelations Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world. On what basis do Latter-day Saints reject this alleged revelation from God through his alleged prophet Muhammad? It doesn't have to be Islam it could be Protestantism- same problem. I reject Aquinas and Martin Luther and Augustine as being "correct" as well No testimony that they were right. That's the only way we can even know the bible is "right" 2
mfbukowski Posted May 2, 2016 Posted May 2, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: How based on Mormon teaching do I know Muhammad's angel and revelation was false? "How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By his contradicting a former revelation." - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 214. You said yourself - According to these revelations Jesus was not God, nor the Son of God, but only a prophet of God. According to these revelations Jesus was not the Savior of the world. According to these revelations Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world. That contradicts a whole bunch of former revelation. And of course the EV's say Joseph does as well. Not a good argument and Steve knows it.
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