Why was Muhammad Wrong?

[RevTestament]

2 minutes ago, snowflake said:

If the LDS technique of "Praying to know truth" works, why was the prophet and the first presidency deceived by Mark Hoffman?

 

1. Don't know that they were. They are the ones who tested the documents and determined they were forgeries. 

2. Men are human and can err.

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Maybe they didn't do the Moroni test correctly?

Perhaps. I believe various GAs have been incorrect about a good number of things.

 

If the Protestant method is correct, how come there are tens of thousands of denominations preaching differing views of God, salvation, etc? It seems they interpret the Bible differently....

[snowflake]

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1. Don't know that they were. They are the ones who tested the documents and determined they were forgeries. 

2. Men are human and can err.

 

So the brethren bought documents knowing they were forgeries? Or are you saying that they weren't forgeries? Either way the documents were examined,  by the "Prophet". So men can err in the "praying to know truth" scenario?........... exactly my point.  

If the Protestant method is correct, how come there are tens of thousands of denominations preaching differing views of God, salvation, etc? It seems they interpret the Bible differently....

Tens of thousands of denominations? Bit of an exaggeration.  Protestants, Baptists, Lutherans, evangelicals.  All of these agree on God, Jesus , the Bible and salvation.  Maybe you could give an example of the doctrinal differences you are concerned with.

[boblloyd91]

3 minutes ago, snowflake said:

So the brethren bought documents knowing they were forgeries? Or are you saying that they weren't forgeries? Either way the documents were examined,  by the "Prophet". So men can err in the "praying to know truth" scenario?........... exactly my point.  

If the Protestant method is correct, how come there are tens of thousands of denominations preaching differing views of God, salvation, etc? It seems they interpret the Bible differently....

Tens of thousands of denominations? Bit of an exaggeration.  Protestants, Baptists, Lutherans, evangelicals.  All of these agree on God, Jesus , the Bible and salvation.  Maybe you could give an example of the doctrinal differences you are concerned with.

They don't agree on baptism, eschatology, communion etc. and sometimes condemn each other to hell for this. Look at how Calvinists view Pentecostals for example...

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, snowflake said:

So the brethren bought documents knowing they were forgeries? Or are you saying that they weren't forgeries? Either way the documents were examined,  by the "Prophet". So men can err in the "praying to know truth" scenario?........... exactly my point.  

I believe they suspected they could be forgeries. That is why they proceeded to immediately hire experts to determine the question. Why they bought them anyway may encompass several possibilities. Perhaps they wanted to ensure they got proved faked if they were. If they got sold to some private collector or critic, they may have just sat on them and used them to criticize the church while refusing to let anyone examine the documents for genuineness.

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"If the Protestant method is correct, how come there are tens of thousands of denominations preaching differing views of God, salvation, etc? It seems they interpret the Bible differently...."

Tens of thousands of denominations? Bit of an exaggeration.  Protestants, Baptists, Lutherans, evangelicals.  All of these agree on God, Jesus , the Bible and salvation.  Maybe you could give an example of the doctrinal differences you are concerned with.

Yes tens of thousands of denominations - or at least ten thousand. There are many independent congregations. Just one example of major differences are "Oneness" Pentecostals who believe Jesus is the same being as the Father, and on the question of salvation, believe we must follow all God's commandments to be saved. Do you believe those things? There are many such differing views among "Protestant" Christians.

[snowflake]

11 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I believe they suspected they could be forgeries. That is why they proceeded to immediately hire experts to determine the question. Why they bought them anyway may encompass several possibilities. Perhaps they wanted to ensure they got proved faked if they were. If they got sold to some private collector or critic, they may have just sat on them and used them to criticize the church while refusing to let anyone examine the documents for genuineness.

Yes tens of thousands of denominations - or at least ten thousand. There are many independent congregations. Just one example of major differences are "Oneness" Pentecostals who believe Jesus is the same being as the Father, and on the question of salvation, believe we must follow all God's commandments to be saved. Do you believe those things? There are many such differing views among "Protestant" Christians.

Rev, looking back on what we have been discussing, we have strayed quite a bit from the OP.  Let me try to answer your questions then let's try to stay on point.

Do I believe we must follow all god's commandments to be saved? (depends on how you define saved, in LDS speak everyone is saved correct?)

But No. If I am honest I can't even make it through the morning and completely follow the first 3 commandments perfectly. Like Paul, I am a great sinner and desperately need Jesus as my savior.  All of my hope, faith, trust and belief is in Jesus and his finished work on the cross.

You are correct in saying that there are many different Christian congregations and denominations, I agree however, the LDS often insist that they are one when it is clearly not the case as well (many different sects with different beliefs). Islam, the same thing.

[RevTestament]

Well, you wanted an example of differences, and I gave you just one. There are many others. Some teach to follow commandments and some teach that is "a work" and that trying to follow commandments is boasting, etc. There is a wide variety of interpretations of the Bible and what one must do or believe to be saved was my point. I believe LDS are essentially one in believing how we are saved - but yes there are variances there too. You are right that we are getting off subject tho. 

Back to Muhammed and Islam - yes they too have differences of opinion. The Shi'ites have different Hadith than the Sunnis. They are the main two sects, although there are one or two very minor sects. Can the spirit confirm that Mohammed was wrong? I believe so. But this is one of the rare cases that I don't believe one needs the guidance of the Spirit, since what the Bible teaches about Christ and what the Koran teaches are so plainly incompatible. 

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Well, you wanted an example of differences, and I gave you just one. There are many others. Some teach to follow commandments and some teach that is "a work" and that trying to follow commandments is boasting, etc. There is a wide variety of interpretations of the Bible and what one must do or believe to be saved was my point. I believe LDS are essentially one in believing how we are saved - but yes there are variances there too. You are right that we are getting off subject tho. 

Back to Muhammed and Islam - yes they too have differences of opinion. The Shi'ites have different Hadith than the Sunnis. They are the main two sects, although there are one or two very minor sects. Can the spirit confirm that Mohammed was wrong? I believe so. But this is one of the rare cases that I don't believe one needs the guidance of the Spirit, since what the Bible teaches about Christ and what the Koran teaches are so plainly incompatible. 

I completely agree with you Rev that the Bible and Koran teach completely incompatible views. Islam claims that Mohammed was the last prophet, was visited by Michael the archangel and that the Koran is the word of god. Mormons claim Joseph is a prophet, visited by Moroni and that the book of Mormon is the word of god. We know how you test for truth. Many muslims claim that the Koran is a miracle and evidence for itself. They state that because we have the Koran it is proof that Mohammad was a prophet.  This is very similar reasoning to posts we see here by our LDS friends.  They both cannot be true. Should I pray about the Koran to see if it is true? How would you respond if I confirmed that I knew it was true?   

[boblloyd91]

1 hour ago, snowflake said:

I completely agree with you Rev that the Bible and Koran teach completely incompatible views. Islam claims that Mohammed was the last prophet, was visited by Michael the archangel and that the Koran is the word of god. Mormons claim Joseph is a prophet, visited by Moroni and that the book of Mormon is the word of god. We know how you test for truth. Many muslims claim that the Koran is a miracle and evidence for itself. They state that because we have the Koran it is proof that Mohammad was a prophet.  This is very similar reasoning to posts we see here by our LDS friends.  They both cannot be true. Should I pray about the Koran to see if it is true? How would you respond if I confirmed that I knew it was true?   

Though I'm no expert on Islam there are a few facets of Mormonism that make this comparison untenable. First off, Joseph Smith's experiences were initiated (beginning with the first vision) from interaction with the bible and the desire to know the biblical God. He read James 1:5 and felt compelled to receive wisdom from the God of the bible for his salvation. Mohammed as far as I know had no such similar experiences, and was visited by the angel without any invitation on his part (in fact some sources seem to imply that the angel was almost harassing and terrifying him). Remember that Moroni came while Joseph was praying for forgiveness of sins. Also, I've looked at the conversion stories of numerous early saints, and a great deal of them were very devout readers of the bible, and sought a closer intimacy with God as described in the bible. They saw things in the current denominations that they felt conflicted with the bible, and sought the best way to worship him and find his truth as found in the bible. Many of their experiences which led them to join Mormonism (which you described in another post as demonic) came from prayer and a desire to know the truth and know God's will regarding how to appropriately worship Jesus Christ. This is apples and oranges with Islam. Are there some similarities between Joseph and Mohammed? Yes they were both visited by an angel, and both put together a book (though Josephs was a translation of an ancient record, Mohammed's sounded more like a dictation) but Joseph was different in that his book emphatically declares the divinity of Christ, and the early members of the church who sought to know Christ and the Holy Spirit were led to Mormonism. One thing you mentioned though is that this was all done by a different Jesus, which I assume you mean the Devil masquerading as Jesus. That may be the case, but if it is it says quite a bit about your god, who allows seekers to be deceived and then roast in hell for eternity. I don't believe that position is biblical, and is actually extremely sick and sadistic....

[RevTestament]

22 hours ago, snowflake said:

I completely agree with you Rev that the Bible and Koran teach completely incompatible views. Islam claims that Mohammed was the last prophet, was visited by Michael the archangel and that the Koran is the word of god. Mormons claim Joseph is a prophet, visited by Moroni and that the book of Mormon is the word of god. We know how you test for truth. Many muslims claim that the Koran is a miracle and evidence for itself. They state that because we have the Koran it is proof that Mohammad was a prophet.  This is very similar reasoning to posts we see here by our LDS friends.  They both cannot be true. 

As I have pointed out, the Koran is clearly incompatible with the Bible, so no they cannot both be true. It is also incompatible with the Book of Mormon, which says Christ is one God with the Father. The Bible and the Book of Mormon have come through many prophets. The Koran from only one - at the alleged behest of Gabriel - not Michael. I think I will trust the scriptures over the beliefs of one man that rewrite the Bible. 

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Should I pray about the Koran to see if it is true? How would you respond if I confirmed that I knew it was true?   

As I have already indicated one doesn't need the guidance of the spirit to determine that the Bible and the Koran are incompatible. One merely needs to read the books to see they're are plainly incompatible. If your prayers confirmed the Koran was true, I might be tempted to think you are praying to the wrong God. Of course LDS would say you don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost. 

Contrarily, the Book of Mormon actually gives guidance in interpreting the Bible, and is consistent with the Bible. 

 

Edited May 6, 2016 by RevTestament

[snowflake]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 2:44 PM, boblloyd91 said:

Though I'm no expert on Islam there are a few facets of Mormonism that make this comparison untenable. First off, Joseph Smith's experiences were initiated (beginning with the first vision) from interaction with the bible and the desire to know the biblical God. He read James 1:5 and felt compelled to receive wisdom from the God of the bible for his salvation. Mohammed as far as I know had no such similar experiences, and was visited by the angel without any invitation on his part (in fact some sources seem to imply that the angel was almost harassing and terrifying him). Remember that Moroni came while Joseph was praying for forgiveness of sins. Also, I've looked at the conversion stories of numerous early saints, and a great deal of them were very devout readers of the bible, and sought a closer intimacy with God as described in the bible. They saw things in the current denominations that they felt conflicted with the bible, and sought the best way to worship him and find his truth as found in the bible. Many of their experiences which led them to join Mormonism (which you described in another post as demonic) came from prayer and a desire to know the truth and know God's will regarding how to appropriately worship Jesus Christ. This is apples and oranges with Islam. Are there some similarities between Joseph and Mohammed? Yes they were both visited by an angel, and both put together a book (though Josephs was a translation of an ancient record, Mohammed's sounded more like a dictation) but Joseph was different in that his book emphatically declares the divinity of Christ, and the early members of the church who sought to know Christ and the Holy Spirit were led to Mormonism. One thing you mentioned though is that this was all done by a different Jesus, which I assume you mean the Devil masquerading as Jesus. That may be the case, but if it is it says quite a bit about your god, who allows seekers to be deceived and then roast in hell for eternity. I don't believe that position is biblical, and is actually extremely sick and sadistic....

So if someone read a “religious” book of some sort and if it gives them positive emotions, then they can conclude that what is contained in that book must be true, right? In the case of the BoM, the original copy says one thing about God and then later is “corrected” to say something else. And people get good feelings about both even though they contradict each other. That should be an immediate tip-off that something isn’t right with both the “feelings equal truth” paradigm and the information contained in the book. The problem is that once someone has a positive feeling, it’s very difficult to let go of the premise even when logic and evidence indicate that the information is faulty or not true.

[Atheist Mormon]

On 5/1/2016 at 5:37 PM, Steve Noel said:

On what basis do Latter-day Saints reject this alleged revelation from God through his alleged prophet Muhammad?

Not only Mohammad, all the alleged Prophets, including Jesus,Buddha, Zoroaster... are the production of human fantasy, like todays fantastic Hollywood heroes. 

[RevTestament]

21 hours ago, snowflake said:

So if someone read a “religious” book of some sort and if it gives them positive emotions, then they can conclude that what is contained in that book must be true, right? In the case of the BoM, the original copy says one thing about God and then later is “corrected” to say something else. And people get good feelings about both even though they contradict each other. That should be an immediate tip-off that something isn’t right with both the “feelings equal truth” paradigm and the information contained in the book. The problem is that once someone has a positive feeling, it’s very difficult to let go of the premise even when logic and evidence indicate that the information is faulty or not true.

The original BoM had some errors which are seemingly attributable to scribal errors, which were later corrected by Joseph Smith. Scribal errors do not make the book untrue. The spirit can still confirm the truthfulness of the book. I have read many Bibles with typographical/scribal errors, and yet the Lord has spoken to me concerning the things therein, without directing me to include a missing verse or correct this phrase or that. Such things do not make a book untrue. If so, everyone reading the KJV with a pagan derived name of "God" is in big trouble.