Hamba Tuhan Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 5 hours ago, The Nehor said: I have read the Quran. The God I worship is many things but he is not that dull. My exact reaction!
Rajah Manchou Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, canard78 said: Careful... If we're going to measure truth based on "least boring" then the BoM's "chloroform in print" accolade might be your undoing. I agree. Edited May 3, 2016 by Rajah Manchou Emotional reaction inappropriate
canard78 Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 45 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: My exact reaction! I can shrug off Nehor, in his role as board jester, with a half-reply quoting Twain. You, on the other hand, are usually a bit more sophisticated in your approach. Surely you understand that context and relationship with a religious text is essential to whether it's "dull" or not? I'm sure many Muslims find the book very engaging and stimulating. Same goes for the texts of Hinduism, Sikhism etc. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The D&C could be described as utterly dull. I remember being really excited when it came up in my second year of seminary. I'd never read it properly before and was looking forward to a scriptural-history of 19thC Mormonism. When I mentioned it to a leader they had to explain that it was something very different. A book of revelations, policies, mission calls, chastisements and occasional doctrinal clarifications... all with no narrative/story other than occasional section headings. I'd like to think Mormonism's God isn't that dull either. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 15 minutes ago, canard78 said: You, on the other hand, are usually a bit more sophisticated in your approach. Thank you for generously ascribing a trait to me that I'm not sure I actually possess. Quote I'm sure many Muslims find the book very engaging and stimulating. Maybe. I'm not so sure. I once asked one of my more-informed Muslim friends what percentage of Muslims worldwide could read the Qur'an, and he suggested 15% ... and then noted that probably only a portion of those actually had. Quote Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No doubt. And the simple reality is that I found the Qur'an to be painfully dull from beginning to end. I far more enjoyed both the Bhagavad Gita and my good mate's PhD thesis in plasma physics (which I edited for him).
mnn727 Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 On 5/2/2016 at 8:59 PM, JLHPROF said: People say the same thing about Christianity - you know, Crusades, Inquisition, and all that. You might want to talk to the Catholics about that.
canard78 Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Thank you for generously ascribing a trait to me that I'm not sure I actually possess. Maybe. I'm not so sure. I once asked one of my more-informed Muslim friends what percentage of Muslims worldwide could read the Qur'an, and he suggested 15% ... and then noted that probably only a portion of those actually had. No doubt. And the simple reality is that I found the Qur'an to be painfully dull from beginning to end. I far more enjoyed both the Bhagavad Gita and my good mate's PhD thesis in plasma physics (which I edited for him). It could quite easily be dull. That's not entirely the point. The thread is discussing whether Muhammad is a credible prophet and whether the Koran is true. Nehor, in response to this question, suggestion that the Koran's credibility was undermined by being dull ("my God is not that dull") and you agreed. Were you agreeing that the Koran's credibility was undermined by being dull?
Atheist Mormon Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) On 5/1/2016 at 5:37 PM, Steve Noel said: On what basis do Latter-day Saints reject this alleged revelation from God through his alleged prophet Muhammad? True, they should study the Gospels first and find out about Jesus. The Gospels are abundant with self incriminations. Edited May 3, 2016 by Atheist Mormon add a sentence
cdowis Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) A Muslim talks about how to tell a true prophet -- amazing! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfflgF_H0kY&feature=youtu.be&t=7m50s Edited May 3, 2016 by cdowis
Stargazer Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 11 hours ago, canard78 said: Careful... If we're going to measure truth based on "least boring" then the BoM's "chloroform in print" accolade might be your undoing. Mark Twain, the humorist, may have felt it was boring, but he wasn't enamored of the Bible, either. Personally, I find the Book of Mormon to be fascinating. Twain notwithstanding.
snowflake Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 On 5/1/2016 at 6:37 PM, Steve Noel said: Muhammad of Mecca said that the angel Gabriel appeared to him and gave him revelations from God over a 23 year period. These revelations were collected and published as the Qur'an. According to these revelations Jesus was not God, nor the Son of God, but only a prophet of God. According to these revelations Jesus was not the Savior of the world. According to these revelations Jesus did not atone for the sins of the world. On what basis do Latter-day Saints reject this alleged revelation from God through his alleged prophet Muhammad? The LDS reject this revelation from God based on their feelings. If it doesn't "feel" good it can't be from God. I personally don't believe that God would use such a faulty medium to communicate with us, mainly because feelings can so easily be manipulated. 2 hours ago, cdowis said:
Stargazer Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 3 minutes ago, snowflake said: The LDS reject this revelation from God based on their feelings. If it doesn't "feel" good it can't be from God. I personally don't believe that God would use such a faulty medium to communicate with us, mainly because feelings can so easily be manipulated. If God didn't use "feelings" what would He use? Television? If God doesn't use "feelings" then He doesn't communicate at all. 1
snowflake Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 38 minutes ago, Stargazer said: If God didn't use "feelings" what would He use? Television? If God doesn't use "feelings" then He doesn't communicate at all. God has given us the Holy Bible. Search the new testament and please tell me where "feelings" are used as a basis for truth? I am someone who believes in the active work or the Holy Spirit but come on.......no wonder there are so many LDS sects.
3DOP Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 3 minutes ago, snowflake said: God has given us the Holy Bible. Search the new testament and please tell me where "feelings" are used as a basis for truth? I am someone who believes in the active work or the Holy Spirit but come on.......no wonder there are so many LDS sects. I don't disagree with your concern for feelings as a guide, at least apart from rules by which to "discern the spirits". But if feelings account for "so many" LDS sects, what would you say accounts for the more numerous non-LDS sects? 4
Stargazer Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 (edited) 22 minutes ago, snowflake said: God has given us the Holy Bible. Search the new testament and please tell me where "feelings" are used as a basis for truth? I am someone who believes in the active work or the Holy Spirit but come on.......no wonder there are so many LDS sects. How the freaking heck can you tell whether the Bible is of God unless you get a "feeling" through the Holy Spirit that it is of God? Just from internal evidence? Or internal evidence mixed with archaeology? Unfortunately, archaeology does not prove supernatural events such as the Resurrection of Christ. You cannot possibly believe in the active work of the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit cannot be trusted to make feelings arise in your heart. How then does the Spirit do it? Erect billboards? Come on, get a grip. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Eternal God, and that He suffered for the remission of my sins, and died and was resurrected so that I might be resurrected and live forever with God in Heaven. I gained this not through the Bible alone, because it was the Book of Mormon and the Prophet Joseph Smith that convinced me that God lives and His Son saved me. My testimony of the Bible derives directly from the Book of Mormon, a book that testifies that the Bible is the Word of God. That's my route to belief -- because I wasn't born into a "standard" Christian family. My father was an agnostic who tried to teach my brother and I that God might exist, and that he hoped that He did exist, but couldn't really be sure. It wasn't until I met my very first Mormon at age 14 that I came to a sure knowledge of God and Christ. Of course, I've been told by more than one evangelical Christian that I'm going to hell because of the route that I took to get to God, but it was quite clear to me that they didn't know what the heck they were talking about. And it was clear that they really didn't know who Christ is. Not saying that about all evangelical Christians -- just the ones who condemned me to hell. And as for "so many LDS sects"!? How many are there? Ten or fifteen? Let's allow twenty, for sake of argument, and how many of them have more than a few hundred members? About two of them. Now consider how many non-Restorationist Christian sects there are. Literally thousands, and hundreds of such sects who boast many thousands and millions of members, and not only that, how many wars resulted from those divisions? How many attempts to conquer the Holy Land from the Muslims? People in glass houses, snowflake. The Bible, snowflake, is clearly not enough, all by itself. Edited May 3, 2016 by Stargazer
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 5 hours ago, canard78 said: Were you agreeing that the Koran's credibility was undermined by being dull? Nope! 1
cdowis Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 3 hours ago, snowflake said: The LDS reject this revelation from God based on their feelings. If it doesn't "feel" good it can't be from God. I personally don't believe that God would use such a faulty medium to communicate with us, mainly because feelings can so easily be manipulated. This "only a feeling" is based the lack of spiritual experience. It is not "just a feeling" but a spiritual manifestation. Elder David R. Bednar explains it best
boblloyd91 Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 2 hours ago, 3DOP said: I don't disagree with your concern for feelings as a guide, at least apart from rules by which to "discern the spirits". But if feelings account for "so many" LDS sects, what would you say accounts for the more numerous non-LDS sects? Exactly! I love the bible, however Sola Scriptura has not led to a unity of the faith, rather continued fragmentation. There are more debates and disagreements in Protestant faiths then Mormonism and Catholicism combined.... 1
The Nehor Posted May 3, 2016 Posted May 3, 2016 16 hours ago, canard78 said: Careful... If we're going to measure truth based on "least boring" then the BoM's "chloroform in print" accolade might be your undoing. An apt description of "A Conneticutt Yankee in King Arthur's Court" so I am not sure Twain is the best judge of what will elicit boredom. 1
snowflake Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 18 hours ago, Stargazer said: How the freaking heck can you tell whether the Bible is of God unless you get a "feeling" through the Holy Spirit that it is of God? Just from internal evidence? Or internal evidence mixed with archaeology? Unfortunately, archaeology does not prove supernatural events such as the Resurrection of Christ. You cannot possibly believe in the active work of the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit cannot be trusted to make feelings arise in your heart. How then does the Spirit do it? Erect billboards? Come on, get a grip. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Eternal God, and that He suffered for the remission of my sins, and died and was resurrected so that I might be resurrected and live forever with God in Heaven. I gained this not through the Bible alone, because it was the Book of Mormon and the Prophet Joseph Smith that convinced me that God lives and His Son saved me. My testimony of the Bible derives directly from the Book of Mormon, a book that testifies that the Bible is the Word of God. That's my route to belief -- because I wasn't born into a "standard" Christian family. My father was an agnostic who tried to teach my brother and I that God might exist, and that he hoped that He did exist, but couldn't really be sure. It wasn't until I met my very first Mormon at age 14 that I came to a sure knowledge of God and Christ. Of course, I've been told by more than one evangelical Christian that I'm going to hell because of the route that I took to get to God, but it was quite clear to me that they didn't know what the heck they were talking about. And it was clear that they really didn't know who Christ is. Not saying that about all evangelical Christians -- just the ones who condemned me to hell. And as for "so many LDS sects"!? How many are there? Ten or fifteen? Let's allow twenty, for sake of argument, and how many of them have more than a few hundred members? About two of them. Now consider how many non-Restorationist Christian sects there are. Literally thousands, and hundreds of such sects who boast many thousands and millions of members, and not only that, how many wars resulted from those divisions? How many attempts to conquer the Holy Land from the Muslims? People in glass houses, snowflake. The Bible, snowflake, is clearly not enough, all by itself. Based on your own description above It is obvious that the Holy Spirit you speak of is not the Holy Spirit described in the bible. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is discernment or discerning of the spirits. So when you give me your testimony above it is obvious that these manifestations are leading you into a false gospel, a false Prophet and a Jesus that can't save. In Islam (and Mormonism) you "believe" in Jesus, it is just a false Jesus, one that can't save. I agree with you that there are plenty of Christian denominations, the difference is that they get Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit correctly as described in the Bible. If you use the Bible as the standard for testing truth, not prayer, then you would see the trap that you have fallen into. Start by reading Deuteronomy chapter 13. Again I ask you, where in the new testament are we told to pray to discover truth? We are told that the Biblical Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
RevTestament Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 1 hour ago, snowflake said: Based on your own description above It is obvious that the Holy Spirit you speak of is not the Holy Spirit described in the bible. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is discernment or discerning of the spirits. So when you give me your testimony above it is obvious that these manifestations are leading you into a false gospel, a false Prophet and a Jesus that can't save. In Islam (and Mormonism) you "believe" in Jesus, it is just a false Jesus, one that can't save. I agree with you that there are plenty of Christian denominations, the difference is that they get Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit correctly as described in the Bible. If you use the Bible as the standard for testing truth, not prayer, then you would see the trap that you have fallen into. Start by reading Deuteronomy chapter 13. Again I ask you, where in the new testament are we told to pray to discover truth? We are told that the Biblical Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. A Protestant who does not believe in prayer. You cannot grow in understanding without prayer. James 1:5 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. John 14:13 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 16:24 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. John 16:26 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: Daniel prayed to understand the scriptures, and by this did he receive his visions. So to understand the scriptures properly, it seems prayer is often necessary.
boblloyd91 Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, snowflake said: Based on your own description above It is obvious that the Holy Spirit you speak of is not the Holy Spirit described in the bible. One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is discernment or discerning of the spirits. So when you give me your testimony above it is obvious that these manifestations are leading you into a false gospel, a false Prophet and a Jesus that can't save. In Islam (and Mormonism) you "believe" in Jesus, it is just a false Jesus, one that can't save. I agree with you that there are plenty of Christian denominations, the difference is that they get Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit correctly as described in the Bible. If you use the Bible as the standard for testing truth, not prayer, then you would see the trap that you have fallen into. Start by reading Deuteronomy chapter 13. Again I ask you, where in the new testament are we told to pray to discover truth? We are told that the Biblical Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. So do you believe that Joseph Smith was visited by the devil when he prayed to know which church to join? After reading the bible? All the churches that disagreed were right but because he prayed after reading the bible he was deceived? Also speaking of discerning spirits 1 John tells us that a spirit that testifies that Christ has come in the flesh, is of God. It doesn't say the spirit also has to testify of the Trinity, sola scriptura, or sola fide. Biblically Stargazer's testimony is accurate. Edited May 4, 2016 by boblloyd91
boblloyd91 Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 Let's also not forget Matthew 5, where we are encouraged to ask, seek and knock. Snowflake is basically saying that Mormons are receiving stones and serpents from God, by being given demonic manifestations for having faith in Christ and asking the truth of all things. For shame Snowflake....
snowflake Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 13 minutes ago, boblloyd91 said: So do you believe that Joseph Smith was visited by the devil when he prayed to know which church to join? After reading the bible? All the churches that disagreed were right but because he prayed after reading the bible he was deceived? Also speaking of discerning spirits 1 John tells us that a spirit that testifies that Christ has come in the flesh, is of God. It doesn't say the spirit also has to testify of the Trinity, sola scriptura, or sola fide. Biblically Stargazer's testimony is accurate. Both Joseph and Mohammed were visited by angelic beings that basically told them that the bible had been corrupted. Mohammed 700 years after the fact and Joseph 1800 years after the fact. 2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us that "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light". Both Mohammed and Joseph presented a different god, Jesus and gospel. Joseph's view of Jesus is that he was a created being, a spiritual offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. So why would I need to pray about Joseph being a prophet when Deuteronomy 13 tells us to reject a prophet that presents a different God? No need to pray about being presented with a different Jesus either. The Bible is the standard for measuring truth, not "feelings".
boblloyd91 Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 15 minutes ago, snowflake said: Both Joseph and Mohammed were visited by angelic beings that basically told them that the bible had been corrupted. Mohammed 700 years after the fact and Joseph 1800 years after the fact. 2 Corinthians 11:14 tells us that "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light". Both Mohammed and Joseph presented a different god, Jesus and gospel. Joseph's view of Jesus is that he was a created being, a spiritual offspring of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. So why would I need to pray about Joseph being a prophet when Deuteronomy 13 tells us to reject a prophet that presents a different God? No need to pray about being presented with a different Jesus either. The Bible is the standard for measuring truth, not "feelings". Let's talk about the bible and what it says about false spirits: 1 John 4:1 states (copied from KJV bible) 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spiritswhether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Where in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, General Conference, or History of the Church has this happened? When have any of those denied Christ? Furthermore when you say you have the correct version of God I'm assuming you mean your interpretation of the bible which entails Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura and the Trinity. the Bible doesn't directly include those criteria for a false spirit. So by going off of your criteria (Bible alone) Joseph's first Vision and the Book of Mormon are just fine. In fact it's interesting that the Father bore testimony of the son in the first vision. Furthermore Joseph and Oliver Cowdery report that on the banks of the Susquehanna Lucifer attempted to deceive them as an angel of light, but were warned by Michael of what he was. So to follow your line of thinking Satan basically cast out Satan.....Is that showing a good knowledge of the scriptures on your part?
snowflake Posted May 4, 2016 Posted May 4, 2016 2 hours ago, RevTestament said: A Protestant who does not believe in prayer. You cannot grow in understanding without prayer. James 1:5 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. John 14:13 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. John 16:24 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. John 16:26 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: Daniel prayed to understand the scriptures, and by this did he receive his visions. So to understand the scriptures properly, it seems prayer is often necessary. If the LDS technique of "Praying to know truth" works, why was the prophet and the first presidency deceived by Mark Hoffman? Maybe they didn't do the Moroni test correctly?
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