Johnnie Cake Posted April 30, 2016 Author Posted April 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: Are you serious with that question? Is it really your presumption that unless something is in the New Testament that Jesus never said it or revealed it? Or that the New Testament contains every word Jesus ever uttered or caused to be uttered? If so, what do you make of this closing passage in the gospel of John? Like I said ...you can't 1
MiserereNobis Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: Neon Trees sucks at music anyway. Give me Metallica and Eric Clapton. You've been playing too many video games. Go listen to the Grateful Dead P.S. archive.org has multiple recordings of every show they ever played. Have fun! 1
Duncan Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 It seems like every couple of months or weeks it's another now ex member hitting the airwaves, the last one was Runnells but now he's eclipsed by this Glenn guy and who knows maybe in a month or something some other person will leave and go on social media about it 1
JLHPROF Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 18 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Like I said ...you can't Why look for teachings? Look for examples instead.
ttribe Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said: Yes it has lost members. The question is then what of it. If people leave the Church for reasons of gay issues, they did not have a strong testimony anyway. It if was not the gay issue, they would fall by something else. Good riddance then, eh? Those people don't matter, right? No big deal. More room for you in the Celestial Kingdom, right? 1
TreeOfJesse Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: You've been playing too many video games. Go listen to the Grateful Dead P.S. archive.org has multiple recordings of every show they ever played. Have fun! An apparent Catholic on a Mormon board who likes the Grateful Dead? I dig it! And here's a great show: https://archive.org/details/gd1977-05-26.sbd.ashley-bertha.31291.sbeok.shnf (are you going to the movie meet-up on 5/11?)
carbon dioxide Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Like I said ...you can't I guess this is where the issue of living prophets being more important than written scriptures from hundreds or thousands of years ago. Issues in society change and its important to know what God has to say about the issues today. 1
carbon dioxide Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 1 hour ago, ttribe said: Good riddance then, eh? Those people don't matter, right? No big deal. More room for you in the Celestial Kingdom, right? Of course they matter but at the same time, people have their agency. The Church can't bend or change for them. There is plenty of room for everyone in the Celestial Kingdom but the scriptures are clear. God can't look up sin with the least degree of allowance and no unclean thing can dwell with God. Those are absolutes. The Church has the obligation to teach the members this. Watering down the standards helps nobody if in the end they stand before God unclean. 1
carbon dioxide Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 2 hours ago, Duncan said: It seems like every couple of months or weeks it's another now ex member hitting the airwaves, the last one was Runnells but now he's eclipsed by this Glenn guy and who knows maybe in a month or something some other person will leave and go on social media about it They have to get their 15 minutes of fame and then off to obscurity. 1
Calm Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said: You've been playing too many video games. Go listen to the Grateful Dead P.S. archive.org has multiple recordings of every show they ever played. Have fun! My exbrother in law was a Deadhead. Made me a great mix tape, need to get that put on a cd before my cassette player goes wonky.
ttribe Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Of course they matter but at the same time, people have their agency. The Church can't bend or change for them. There is plenty of room for everyone in the Celestial Kingdom but the scriptures are clear. God can't look up sin with the least degree of allowance and no unclean thing can dwell with God. Those are absolutes. The Church has the obligation to teach the members this. Watering down the standards helps nobody if in the end they stand before God unclean. Sorry, but that's a big change from what you said in the post I quoted...you know the part that said "What of it." And you flippantly said if it wasn't this issue, then it would just be something else. Well, that's quite different from "Of course they matter..." So which is it? Do they matter? Or should we just not worry because, you know, if it's not the "gay issues" then "they would fall by something else?" Edited April 30, 2016 by ttribe
Sky Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 If the policy change in November really was a revelation from God to President Monson, as Russell M. Nelson stated, and it is our privilege to know this for ourselves, then the onus is on us. The Church is not at fault, as much pain as it has caused for people. The old saying comes to mind "when God speaks and a man obeys, man will always be right"...It is up to us to choose to repent and change our ways. That has been a consistent message from the Church pretty much from the beginning. I'll be the first to admit that keeping certain commandments is a lot more difficult for LGBT people. …but still, if God really did tell Pres. Monson to enact those changes, then the Church is right and the LGBT community is wrong about same-sex relationships. There really isn't much more to discuss. It's black and white. 3
cdowis Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 (edited) Is this going to become another thread on Jeremy Rummels? I certainly hope so because only 1013 posts and two threads are just not enough. Edited April 30, 2016 by cdowis 1
canard78 Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 12 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Tyler Glenn has released a new solo song "Trash" in which he laments the hurt and pain of being rejected by the church he once loved and served. For those unfamiliar with Glenn he came out Gay 2 years ago. I believe that the new anti gay policy was the straw the broke his proverbial shelf. When he came out in Rolling Stone Magazine he was still very pro Mormon and talked about his desire to be an ambassador for the gay Mormon community. When the church announced last year that gay couples legally married would be considered apostate, Glenn's belief dissolved. anyway thought this might interest some here. I've been a Neon Tree's fan since their days in Provo...I just find it interesting how things have evolved since then...the church lost a good man in Tyler Glenn...I'm saddened to see it end like this http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/watch-neon-trees-tyler-glenn-slam-mormon-church-in-new-solo-video-20160429 Regardless of your taste in music, that video had a very clear component: passion. I got goose bumps.
canard78 Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 10 hours ago, Ahab said: I recommend we come out with a new video; Titled "Get Straight or Get Out"... with some nice music in the background and lots of pictures of happy straight people. poster removed Thanks mods. 2
Johnnie Cake Posted April 30, 2016 Author Posted April 30, 2016 What is obvious to everyone but the church is that we are in the middle of a societal shift. These shifts take place when the majority of society recognise injustices within society and change. It going on right before our very eyes yet dogmatic institutions always seem to be the last ones to accept the message,,,but they eventually do or they are relegated to the far fringes of society and are simply irrelevant The church will eventually change just as it has in the past or it will become more and more irrelevant but unfortunately that acceptance and change will come too late for Tyler Glenn and other gay Mormons of our generation Right now the church is in the same exact place it found itself in the 1880's and 1970's eventually with enough societal pressure change will happen with respect to both woman's and gay rights revelations will be claimed change will occur and members will accept and adapt but in the mean time this tention between church dogmatism and societal change will only intensify until the church either changes or is relegated to obscurity 1
Popular Post Stargazer Posted April 30, 2016 Popular Post Posted April 30, 2016 10 hours ago, Jeanne said: How can you say that Scott? Since the policy last fall, the church has lost a lot of members. Shortly before the policy there was a step taken to open the bridge and better understanding between the gays and LDS. The church is accountable this time. The church doesn't exist to follow the world as it gradually goes off the deep end. I can't believe that none of you defenders of worldliness don't see that. Twenty or twenty-five years ago, you would have been perfectly happy with the then Church policy on homosexuality -- that it's a sin and practicing it leads to excommunication. Now the world has moved on, further along the road to Sodom and Gomorrah, and you're all aghast that the Church hasn't moved along smartly along the same path. The world is going to continue further on this path, no question, and I am very confident you're going to get more and more aghast every step along the way, tut-tutting every church policy that further offends your progressive sense of worldliness. As the Church continues to stand for divine principles and in opposition to worldly ones, there will be a steady stream of members who will leave, being uncomfortable with being so far out of touch with the world. I will be sorry to see them go, of course, but it isn't the Church which will be wrong in all this. And all of them who exit due to progressivism will remind me of the misguided man whom I met on my mission in Germany, who said he would not consider joining the Church unless the Church came out and called for the immediate release of the former Nazi official, Rudolf Hess, who was then being held in Spandau Prison in Berlin as a war criminal. This guy believed that Hess was being held unjustly, due to the fact of his having flown to England to attempt to negotiate a peace between Germany and England during WW2. So, the Church should have been on his side. Since the Church obviously had nothing to say on the matter, of course it couldn't possibly be a real Christian church. And so it will go. 5
Hamba Tuhan Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 4 hours ago, ttribe said: Good riddance then, eh? Those people don't matter, right? No big deal. More room for you in the Celestial Kingdom, right? I find it interesting that hand-wringing over wilful apostasy has become the preeminent form of virtue-signalling amongst discontented Latter-day Saints. Am I bothered when one of the family goes missing? Damn straight. But I believe passionately in the divine gift of agency, so I'm willing to let people go when they are hell-bent on doing so. And for the same reason, I stubbornly refuse to enrobe myself in faux mourning just because someone feels he can intimidate me with his own sense of sanctimony. 4
Hamba Tuhan Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 19 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: ... this tention between church dogmatism and societal change will only intensify until the church either changes or is relegated to obscurity Which of these hypothetical outcomes do you most desire, and why?
Stargazer Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 10 hours ago, Valentinus said: Every person must decide for themself the nature and scope of their relationship with God and what God wants from them. The LDS church does not determine this nor does it have any bearing on one's eternal destination. I've heard that before: "Jeder soll nach seiner Fassung Selig werden!" Frederick the Great. "Everyone shall be saved according to his own belief!" In other words, there is no ultimate truth, and whatever you believe will save you.
Stargazer Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Why. I was not comparing the two to be the same. Just stating a fact that Jesus did not speak about a lot of things. Jesus did not speak about waterboarding. Should we believe that Jesus is therefore ok with it. Jesus didn't say a word about surfing, either. Or, for that matter, climbing Mt. Everest. Would Jesus have gone surfing on the North Shore of Oahu, when the big waves were coming into Waimea Bay?
canard78 Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 33 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Which of these hypothetical outcomes do you most desire, and why? I know you didn't ask me, but I want the church to change. I don't want it to eat itself into oblivion. It is a large organisation that can mobilise millions. It had the potential to do huge good in many countries around the world. I know is an important part of the lives of friends and family. If it continues to tether itself to the stake of gender and sexuality discrimination then I can only see it declining. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 15 hours ago, JulieM said: He is obviously heartbroken and angry. I honestly don't blame him for feeling as he does. I'd feel betrayed too. This is all really very sad. Why should he feel "betrayed?" Has the Church ever even hinted that it was okay with same sex marriage? If anyone has "betrayed" him, it was the fringe Mormons who've been confidently predicting the Church's imminent surrender on that front. And. Nobody. Else. 2
Russell C McGregor Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, sunstoned said: I believe the 1890 manafeso is a prime example of the church being pressured to behave in a manner inconsistent with its long-held doctrine. The congress of the United States spoke and the church caved. Because of this I hold out hope that they will reverse this hurtful and unfortunate policy. You don't punish innocent children for the alleged misdeeds of their parents. That's Christianity 101. The policy that you are so exercised about doesn't punish innocent children for the alleged misdeeds of their parents. That's honesty 101. ETA: Are you expecting a new piece of legislation as vile as the Edmunds-Tucker act that utterly disregards America's vaunted constitution in order to attack the Church of Jesus Christ, or are you merely hoping for such a thing? Edited April 30, 2016 by Russell C McGregor 1
Russell C McGregor Posted April 30, 2016 Posted April 30, 2016 12 hours ago, Jeanne said: How can you say that Scott? Since the policy last fall, the church has lost a lot of members. Shortly before the policy there was a step taken to open the bridge and better understanding between the gays and LDS. The church is accountable this time. Yes, the Church is accountable. And since the Church did what was right, it has nothing to fear from any accounting with the one Incorruptible Judge. 1
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