mapman Posted March 29, 2016 Posted March 29, 2016 So all of my life I've heard numerous members of the church say "the church is perfect, but it's members aren't," or something to that effect. I've lived in Utah, California, Michigan, and Argentina at various points in my life, and I'd hear that sentiment expressed frequently in all those places, so it seems to be a universal folk doctrine in the church. I'd guess that a sizable majority of members believe this and it seems to me that many members find great comfort in this teaching. The only problem is that as far as I can tell no scriptures or general authorities have ever taught this. It seems to have sprung up from nowhere. In fact President Uchtdorf recently said, "I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings." (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng) I think the correct teaching is actually that the fullness of the Gospel is perfect and that everything else will become perfected by the end. Does anyone have any sources showing that the idea that the church is perfect has ever been taught by church authorities? Does anyone have any ideas when this teaching originated? Is it more or less common now than it used to be? Is it harmful to hold onto the belief that the church is perfect? If so, why haven't church authorities condemned it more forcefully? 1
Popular Post JAHS Posted March 30, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 30, 2016 More correctly the Gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, people are not. The church as an organization can't always be perfect because it is made up of and administered by fallible people. People who are trying to run it through revelation from God but might sometimes make few mistakes. It helps to have 15 prophets in the leadership, which cuts down on the possibility for mistakes by one or a few of them. 6
Bobbieaware Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 21 minutes ago, mapman said: So all of my life I've heard numerous members of the church say "the church is perfect, but it's members aren't," or something to that effect. I've lived in Utah, California, Michigan, and Argentina at various points in my life, and I'd hear that sentiment expressed frequently in all those places, so it seems to be a universal folk doctrine in the church. I'd guess that a sizable majority of members believe this and it seems to me that many members find great comfort in this teaching. The only problem is that as far as I can tell no scriptures or general authorities have ever taught this. It seems to have sprung up from nowhere. In fact President Uchtdorf recently said, "I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings." (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng) I think the correct teaching is actually that the fullness of the Gospel is perfect and that everything else will become perfected by the end. Does anyone have any sources showing that the idea that the church is perfect has ever been taught by church authorities? Does anyone have any ideas when this teaching originated? Is it more or less common now than it used to be? Is it harmful to hold onto the belief that the church is perfect? If so, why haven't church authorities condemned it more forcefully? The Church may not be perfect, but it's the perfect place to learn how to become perfect. 2
UtahTexan Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 The Church as it is of God is perfect. The Church as run by imperfect men is not. But that does not matter. The Church is true. The fact it is run by imperfect men does not change that. I am a better man, husband and father by being a member. That is what matters. 1
mfbukowski Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 "Perfect" means "complete". As long as anything is growing and changing it is not complete, at least not in the ancient Greek sense. 3
Boanerges Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 14 hours ago, JAHS said: More correctly the Gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, people are not. The church as an organization can't always be perfect because it is made up of and administered by fallible people. People who are trying to run it through revelation from God but might sometimes make few mistakes. It helps to have 15 prophets in the leadership, which cuts down on the possibility for mistakes by one or a few of them. I do believe the distinction between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church of Jesus Christ (of Latter-day Saints) is important. The gospel exists (and has always existed) independent of any church. The church, on the other hand, is dependent on the gospel. The gospel is the path, the church is a walking stick. 2
Gray Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 14 hours ago, mapman said: So all of my life I've heard numerous members of the church say "the church is perfect, but it's members aren't," or something to that effect. I've lived in Utah, California, Michigan, and Argentina at various points in my life, and I'd hear that sentiment expressed frequently in all those places, so it seems to be a universal folk doctrine in the church. I'd guess that a sizable majority of members believe this and it seems to me that many members find great comfort in this teaching. The only problem is that as far as I can tell no scriptures or general authorities have ever taught this. It seems to have sprung up from nowhere. In fact President Uchtdorf recently said, "I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings." (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng) I think the correct teaching is actually that the fullness of the Gospel is perfect and that everything else will become perfected by the end. Does anyone have any sources showing that the idea that the church is perfect has ever been taught by church authorities? Does anyone have any ideas when this teaching originated? Is it more or less common now than it used to be? Is it harmful to hold onto the belief that the church is perfect? If so, why haven't church authorities condemned it more forcefully? The church IS the members. Speaking for myself as one member, I'm not perfect. 4
Tacenda Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) I heard that from my stalwart LDS mother all my life, and she'd add that Satan goes after those that are in the higher positions, she used a better word, my brain is a fog. Anyhow, she would say the church is perfect the people aren't. But in my estimation, the people can be more perfect than the church sometimes, on account of it's failings on getting some things right up to this point. The people are why I've stayed active a lot of the time. So I'll just say the church isn't God and leave it at that. Edited March 30, 2016 by Tacenda
longview Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 22 minutes ago, Tacenda said: The people are why I've stayed active a lot of the time. So I'll just say the church isn't God and leave it at that. The CHURCH is the university of REDEMPTION. The TEMPLE is the university of EXALTATION. You keep acting like mortality is the only "reality." But it is not. We live in a world of chaos, confusion, joys, grief, opposition, etc. We are allowed to make all kinds of choices. The consequences of which are not not immediately punished or rewarded (like it would be in Heaven under the laws of Eternal Justice). 3
Tacenda Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 3 minutes ago, longview said: The CHURCH is the university of REDEMPTION. The TEMPLE is the university of EXALTATION. You keep acting like mortality is the only "reality." But it is not. We live in a world of chaos, confusion, joys, grief, opposition, etc. We are allowed to make all kinds of choices. The consequences of which are not not immediately punished or rewarded (like it would be in Heaven under the laws of Eternal Justice). I can't say that I agree, I'm barely able to believe in a Saviour right now in my disillusionment of what I've found to have occurred in church history. I'm lucky to hold onto Jesus, but I believe that will be good enough. The temple is about stair stepping to Godhood. Me, all I need is at least angel status, as stated in the scriptures. The church is a building, it's not the Gospel.
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 10 minutes ago, longview said: The CHURCH is the university of REDEMPTION. The TEMPLE is the university of EXALTATION. You keep acting like mortality is the only "reality." But it is not. I love this. So accurate. I may have to steal it in the future...
Tacenda Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: I love this. So accurate. I may have to steal it in the future... I must bring the best out in people!
mapman Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 18 hours ago, JAHS said: More correctly the Gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, people are not. The church as an organization can't always be perfect because it is made up of and administered by fallible people. People who are trying to run it through revelation from God but might sometimes make few mistakes. It helps to have 15 prophets in the leadership, which cuts down on the possibility for mistakes by one or a few of them. I agree with this 100%. You expressed it more eloquently than me.
mapman Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I can't say that I agree, I'm barely able to believe in a Saviour right now in my disillusionment of what I've found to have occurred in church history. I'm lucky to hold onto Jesus, but I believe that will be good enough. The temple is about stair stepping to Godhood. Me, all I need is at least angel status, as stated in the scriptures. The church is a building, it's not the Gospel. I think of the Gospel as being the rock/firm foundation in Jesus' parable of the wise and foolish builders (as Jesus explains it in 3 Nephi 11). I think you are right that the church and everything else that helps us progress towards God are like a building you build on top of it. For me, I am hardly a stellar disciple of Christ, but I do find comfort in having the first principles of the Gospel in my life and find motivation in the conviction that I am helping build something divine.
HappyJackWagon Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 12 hours ago, mfbukowski said: "Perfect" means "complete". As long as anything is growing and changing it is not complete, at least not in the ancient Greek sense. Perfect also means "without flaw". The church is neither complete nor is it without flaw. If it were complete we wouldn't expect a continuing restoration as many great and marvelous things continue to be revealed and anything that comes into contact with humans will be flawed. These humans are found in our families, wards, stakes, and even in the highest governing counsels of the church. So... the OP is right. The church is not perfect so we shouldn't act like it is. 2
longview Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: The church is a building, it's not the Gospel. The CHURCH is a subset (wholly contained within) of the Gospel. Question: Do you believe you lived in the pre-existence? Do you believe that mortality is a tremendous GIFT from God? For us to learn in ways we could NOT possibly have obtained in the pre-existence? We have a choice. We can either live the Gospel to the hilt OR we can be like the mockers in the "Great and Spacious Building" and wallow in carnal mushiness.
mapman Posted March 30, 2016 Author Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) I was mostly interested if anybody has insight on where this misunderstanding comes from. It sounds like no one really knows where the "church is perfect; members aren't" belief came from. I understand that members are the church, and so it is kind of nonsensical to distinguish between the two. However, the way I've heard it explained various times is that the organization and structure is perfect. Like it could never be improved or changed. I think this is a common understanding among members for some reason even though it has never been officially taught as far as I can tell. It seems like it might be setting up false expectations for members in regards to the church. I guess I don't understand why church authorities haven't put more effort into dispelling common misunderstandings among members that things are perfect that aren't. Also, as has been pointed out, believing in a perfect church totally destroys any sense that the restoration is ongoing and makes it more difficult for the church to progress towards perfection, because it is already supposedly perfect. I've been trying to do some research on where this came from. So far I've had little luck finding anything really. What I did find is that if you search mormon.org profiles you can find this idea repeated many times: "I can say that the Church is perfect, the members are not..." "The church is perfect and can bless the lives of everyone..." "...the church is the one thing I can count on to never change. The church is perfect..." "One thing i have come to see is that The church is perfect the people are not..." "Remember, the church is perfect, the people most definitely are not..." Etc. Why do these members believe these things? And should we be doing something to let them know that this isn't something the church actually teaches? Edited March 30, 2016 by mapman 1
stemelbow Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 9 minutes ago, longview said: The CHURCH is a subset (wholly contained within) of the Gospel. Question: Do you believe you lived in the pre-existence? Do you believe that mortality is a tremendous GIFT from God? For us to learn in ways we could NOT possibly have obtained in the pre-existence? We have a choice. We can either live the Gospel to the hilt OR we can be like the mockers in the "Great and Spacious Building" and wallow in carnal mushiness. It's sad day when we forget those who pretend to live the gospel to the fullest are often the ones in the Great and Spacious Building. I wanted to add, having had seen some of the inner workings of the Church as an employee, I can say with confidence the Church, the great big org who houses many employees who benefit from your tithing dollars, is far from perfect. It's a bunch of people with varying degrees of professional training proposing different ideas and directions in their various capacities to the General Authorities for review. Most of the things done don't make it to the GAs at all. They would be overwhelmed with the nitty gritty details of what is making that big org move. Oh yeah and there are tons of missionaries.
halconero Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 The Church is not currently organized in a Patriarchal/Familial manner as indicated will be the case in its Celestial State, so I can hardly see how anyone can call it perfect. I will say that it is pretty well adapted to the capacity of its members to receive and keep knowledge and covenants. 1
mfbukowski Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 1 hour ago, halconero said: The Church is not currently organized in a Patriarchal/Familial manner as indicated will be the case in its Celestial State, so I can hardly see how anyone can call it perfect. I will say that it is pretty well adapted to the capacity of its members to receive and keep knowledge and covenants. Thanks for saying that, and i agree. I think we say it is "perfect" because we do not want to say it is "imperfect" and we want to blame th eimperfections on the people, not the structure. The structure is amazingly good, in my experience, which is getting to be considerable, now that i am officially an "old guy" and pretty familiar with how the church works at least on the ward and stake level, and in the temple. But you are right. I think it is possible that there will be no church at all in the celestial kingdom- just one family. There will be no need for anything else.
consiglieri Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 I think we would better off as a church if we would delete the word "perfect" from the Mormon lexicon. Unless we are using it to say what nothing is. Not church. Not members. Not leaders. Not prophets. Not scriptures. Not inspiration. Not revelation. Not our understanding of anything . . . including our understanding of Jesus Christ . . . or the plan of salvation . . . or the gospel . . . or of God. And not God either, when you come right down to it.
Rivers Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 53 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I think we would better off as a church if we would delete the word "perfect" from the Mormon lexicon. Unless we are using it to say what nothing is. Not church. Not members. Not leaders. Not prophets. Not scriptures. Not inspiration. Not revelation. Not our understanding of anything . . . including our understanding of Jesus Christ . . . or the plan of salvation . . . or the gospel . . . or of God. And not God either, when you come right down to it. And why would you say God is not perfect?
JLHPROF Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: And not God either, when you come right down to it. 11 minutes ago, Rivers said: And why would you say God is not perfect? Depends if you believe Elder McConkie or President Brigham Young. Edited March 30, 2016 by JLHPROF
Ahab Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 22 hours ago, mapman said: So all of my life I've heard numerous members of the church say "the church is perfect, but it's members aren't," or something to that effect. I've lived in Utah, California, Michigan, and Argentina at various points in my life, and I'd hear that sentiment expressed frequently in all those places, so it seems to be a universal folk doctrine in the church. I'd guess that a sizable majority of members believe this and it seems to me that many members find great comfort in this teaching. The only problem is that as far as I can tell no scriptures or general authorities have ever taught this. It seems to have sprung up from nowhere. In fact President Uchtdorf recently said, "I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings." (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng) I think the correct teaching is actually that the fullness of the Gospel is perfect and that everything else will become perfected by the end. Does anyone have any sources showing that the idea that the church is perfect has ever been taught by church authorities? Does anyone have any ideas when this teaching originated? Is it more or less common now than it used to be? Is it harmful to hold onto the belief that the church is perfect? If so, why haven't church authorities condemned it more forcefully? I've noticed that Church leaders don't seem to be able to do much of anything to make the Church perfect, regardless of how many times they give us correct doctrine to try to correct one or more false ideas believed by some of its members, and the fact that there are some Church members who believe and testify about one false idea or another is proof positive that the Church is truly not perfect. And who knows if it ever will be? All it takes is one bad apple to spoil the whole bunch, so to speak.
Bobbieaware Posted March 30, 2016 Posted March 30, 2016 2 hours ago, mapman said: I was mostly interested if anybody has insight on where this misunderstanding comes from. It sounds like no one really knows where the "church is perfect; members aren't" belief came from. I understand that members are the church, and so it is kind of nonsensical to distinguish between the two. However, the way I've heard it explained various times is that the organization and structure is perfect. Like it could never be improved or changed. I think this is a common understanding among members for some reason even though it has never been officially taught as far as I can tell. It seems like it might be setting up false expectations for members in regards to the church. I guess I don't understand why church authorities haven't put more effort into dispelling common misunderstandings among members that things are perfect that aren't. Also, as has been pointed out, believing in a perfect church totally destroys any sense that the restoration is ongoing and makes it more difficult for the church to progress towards perfection, because it is already supposedly perfect. I've been trying to do some research on where this came from. So far I've had little luck finding anything really. What I did find is that if you search mormon.org profiles you can find this idea repeated many times: "I can say that the Church is perfect, the members are not..." "The church is perfect and can bless the lives of everyone..." "...the church is the one thing I can count on to never change. The church is perfect..." "One thing i have come to see is that The church is perfect the people are not..." "Remember, the church is perfect, the people most definitely are not..." Etc. Why do these members believe these things? And should we be doing something to let them know that this isn't something the church actually teaches? The answer to your question is found in the scriptures, and I will shortly quote the apostle Paul in answer to your question. But first my two cents: What the expression means is that the perfect God stands at the helm of the Church, and in his infinite wisdom he set up his Church in such a marvelous way that, in spite of the pervasive presence of human imperfection, the Church is able to thoroughly furnish every sincere and faithful member with all the spiritual power and authority needed in order for them to obtain the fullness of life and salvation; in other words, eternal perfection. Im his epistles, the apostle Paul spent a great deal of time writing about and cataloging the human imperfections he found within the Church of Jesus Christ of his day. But in spite of the Church's human imperfection, this is what Paul had to say about the Church: 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers (please note, all the above Church officers are imperfect, yet Paul goes on to say that God has placed them in the Church for...) 12 For the PERFECTING of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the stature of the FULNESS OF CHRIST: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4) So what Paul is saying is that though the members of the Church are imperfect, by a miraculous divine design the Church of Christ is the perfect place for imperfect men and women to learn how to become perfect. By the omniscience of his divine wisdom, God has set up a Church organization that enables him to bring perfection out of imperfection. Therefore, in a way you seem to have not considered, the Church performs a perfect work in spite of the imperfection a of its members. In fact, without the presence of pervasive human imperfection the Church could not perform its perfect work.
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