The Church isn't Perfect

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, mapman said:

I was mostly interested if anybody has insight on where this misunderstanding comes from. It sounds like no one really knows where the "church is perfect; members aren't" belief came from. I understand that members are the church, and so it is kind of nonsensical to distinguish between the two. However, the way I've heard it explained various times is that the organization and structure is perfect. Like it could never be improved or changed.

I think this is a common understanding among members for some reason even though it has never been officially taught as far as I can tell. It seems like it might be setting up false expectations for members in regards to the church. I guess I don't understand why church authorities haven't put more effort into dispelling common misunderstandings among members that things are perfect that aren't. Also, as has been pointed out, believing in a perfect church totally destroys any sense that the restoration is ongoing and makes it more difficult for the church to progress towards perfection, because it is already supposedly perfect.

I've been trying to do some research on where this came from. So far I've had little luck finding anything really. What I did find is that if you search mormon.org profiles you can find this idea repeated many times:

"I can say that the Church is perfect, the members are not..."

"The church is perfect and can bless the lives of everyone..."

"...the church is the one thing I can count on to never change. The church is perfect..."

"One thing i have come to see is that The church is perfect the people are not..."

"Remember, the church is perfect, the people most definitely are not..."

Etc.

Why do these members believe these things? And should we be doing something to let them know that this isn't something the church actually teaches?

 

You do realize some Church members are not perfectly educated,  don't you?  And that some members are as young as only 8 years old?

Where does any false or mistaken idea come from, do you think?

It's not as if everything Church members say is true and it would be sheer folly to think that no Church member would ever not believe and share any false idea he or she currently has. 

The fact that you can even wonder about this indicates you don't fully understand how people learn and grow from some degree of darkness on some issue or another until they are filled with nothing but glorious light, and even then it is on an individual basis with some others still having some degree of darkness about something.

Think it through, bro. Or did you intend your questions to be more rhetorical than a plea for knowledge about how all of this works?

[mapman]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

You do realize some Church members are not perfectly educated,  don't you?  And that some members are as young as only 8 years old?

Where does any false or mistaken idea come from, do you think?

It's not as if everything Church members say is true and it would be sheer folly to think that no Church member would ever not believe and share any false idea he or she currently has. 

The fact that you can even wonder about this indicates you don't fully understand how people learn and grow from some degree of darkness on some issue or another until they are filled with nothing but glorious light, and even then it is on an individual basis with some others still having some degree of darkness about something.

Think it through, bro. Or did you intend your questions to be more rhetorical than a plea for knowledge about how all of this works?

I know all of us aren't perfectly educated and some members understand doctrine better than others. It's just that people tend to say that phrase word for word, "the church is perfect; the members aren't." I was wondering if anyone knew if it was quoting someone or if any church authority had actually taught the idea at some point. I assumed that it was just a misunderstanding of doctrine like you say, but I wanted to make sure. Anyways, if we realize that a large portion of members believe a false doctrine we should be doing our best to educate them. But we don't really do anything at all to educate our members about this particular issue for some reason. This isn't just a few stray members believing a weird idea, but probably the majority of members believing something to be a core doctrine of the church when it is not a doctrine at all.

Edited March 31, 2016 by mapman

[mapman]

3 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I think we would better off as a church if we would delete the word "perfect" from the Mormon lexicon.

 

Unless we are using it to say what nothing is.

Not church.

Not members.

Not leaders.

Not prophets.

Not scriptures.

Not inspiration.

Not revelation.

Not our understanding of anything . . . including our understanding of Jesus Christ . . . or the plan of salvation . . . or the gospel . . . or of God.

And not God either, when you come right down to it.

I'd grant that there is little that is actually perfect. I happen to believe, and I think most Mormons would agree with me, that God is morally perfect (ie he is fully good) even if you grant that he is progressing in some way or isn't absolute in every single way. Also I think that the Gospel is a perfect path back to God. Even if I don't understand everything about the first principles of the Gospel, I trust in the Book of Mormon containing essential truths that can actually get us back to live with God. I also believe that Christ's love is perfect, his charity will never fail us. That's something I believe, though I doubt you'd agree.

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, mapman said:

I know all of us aren't perfectly educated and some members understand doctrine better than others. It's just that people tend to say that phrase word for word, "the church is perfect; the members aren't." I was wondering if anyone knew if it was quoting someone or if any church authority had actually taught the idea at some point. I assumed that it was just a misunderstanding of doctrine like you say, but I wanted to make sure. Anyways, if we realize that a large portion of members believe a false doctrine we should be doing our best to educate them. But we don't really do anything at all to educate our members about this particular issue for some reason. This isn't just a few stray members believing a weird idea, but probably the majority of members believing something to be a core doctrine of the church when it is not a doctrine at all.

What I meant and probably didn't explain very well is that it's a "growth" thing.  A result or symptom of what happens when someone doesn't know the truth on a particular issue,  but thinks he/ she does, and (I think) later gets to the point where he/she understands the truth on that point.  And it works that way on every issue,  unless someone doesn't ever learn the truth on that issue. 

I once said and thought the same thing, on this issue,  for example,  when I first found out about and joined the Church.  The Church that I knew then was the true Church of Christ,  which I still know it is. But now I know that it/ the Church is not perfect because now I know and understand that we/ the members of the Church are not perfect. We still have everything we need to become perfect, though, which is our Lord and the gift of the Holy Ghost (or at least that gift is still available to us), so that by and through the power of God thar operates through our Lord and the Holy Spirit which entitles us to receive revelation and sanctification we will eventually become perfect, but as of now we are not there yet even though we have what we need to make it. We are complete in that way, but only in the sense of having everything we need available to us. 

Line upon line and precept upon precept is how it is supposed to work for us, and each of us is at a different stage of development toward perfection.  So don't be surprised when you hear from someone who hasn't learned what you and I have learned on this issue,  yet. We all go from a state of not knowing something until we know it.

[Bobbieaware]

3 hours ago, mapman said:

I know all of us aren't perfectly educated and some members understand doctrine better than others. It's just that people tend to say that phrase word for word, "the church is perfect; the members aren't." I was wondering if anyone knew if it was quoting someone or if any church authority had actually taught the idea at some point. I assumed that it was just a misunderstanding of doctrine like you say, but I wanted to make sure. Anyways, if we realize that a large portion of members believe a false doctrine we should be doing our best to educate them. But we don't really do anything at all to educate our members about this particular issue for some reason. This isn't just a few stray members believing a weird idea, but probably the majority of members believing something to be a core doctrine of the church when it is not a doctrine at all.

It is not a false doctrine. There are many things about the Church that are perfect in spite of the fact that the members are imperfect. In fact, if all that existed in the Church was imperfection, no one could ever possibly be saved. If all that existed in the Church was imperfection, we would all just be busy spinning our wheels but going nowhere. Nowhere, that is, except down to perdition. It's because the Church has so many perfect elements within it that spiritual growth and salvation are possible.

It was originally my intent to list some of those many elements of perfection here, but if you're willing you can list some of them yourself. If you're unable to come up with anything, I'll chime in and begin to list some of them myself. But I'll give you a hint -- if those perfect elements did not exist, the Church would just shrivel up and die.

[Guest]

On March 29, 2016 at 7:59 PM, mapman said:

So all of my life I've heard numerous members of the church say "the church is perfect, but it's members aren't," or something to that effect. I've lived in Utah, California, Michigan, and Argentina at various points in my life, and I'd hear that sentiment expressed frequently in all those places, so it seems to be a universal folk doctrine in the church. I'd guess that a sizable majority of members believe this and it seems to me that many members find great comfort in this teaching. The only problem is that as far as I can tell no scriptures or general authorities have ever taught this. It seems to have sprung up from nowhere. In fact President Uchtdorf recently said, "I suppose the Church would be perfect only if it were run by perfect beings." (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng) I think the correct teaching is actually that the fullness of the Gospel is perfect and that everything else will become perfected by the end.

Does anyone have any sources showing that the idea that the church is perfect has ever been taught by church authorities?

Does anyone have any ideas when this teaching originated? Is it more or less common now than it used to be?

Is it harmful to hold onto the belief that the church is perfect? If so, why haven't church authorities condemned it more forcefully?

I stated in the another post that the Church is a lighthouse that keeps from crashing on the rocks and making a shipwreck of our faith, and Christ is the perfect light to keep us from am king a shipwreck of our souls. We should keep our eye n Christ, and this where the Church can help dispite not being perfect, as well as having someone who receives revelation and is made worthy to pilot the ship and to steady the Ark. Again to you last sentence, what is the answe, spending a year to both member and investigator and speak only of our shortcomings, because if we did we would have to decry the errors of all from Adam to Tomas S Monson. Somehow I believe all that will satisfy this bloodlust should only speaking of the flaws of today's leaders and destroy the Church for not meeting the standard of those who hate it most 

[Ahab]

16 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

It is not a false doctrine. There are many things about the Church that are perfect in spite of the fact that the members are imperfect. In fact, if all that existed in the Church was imperfection, no one could ever possibly be saved. If all that existed in the Church was imperfection, we would all just be busy spinning our wheels but going nowhere. Nowhere, that is, except down to perdition. It's because the Church has so many perfect elements within it that spiritual growth and salvation are possible.

It was originally my intent to list some of those many elements of perfection here, but if you're willing you can list some of them yourself. If you're unable to come up with anything, I'll chime in and begin to list some of them myself. But I'll give you a hint -- if those perfect elements did not exist, the Church would just shrivel up and die.

Go for it. I double dog dare you.

And please do not confuse the Church with God or God's word or anything God does or says to the Church.

Yes, God (our Father) is perfect,  and so is our Lord, and the Holy Ghost can do a perfect job of perfecting the members of the Church if the members will simply cooperate and work with him/them, but God (our Father) and our Lord AND the Holy Ghost are completely set apart from the Church and are not even members of it.

Too many people tend to confuse God with the Church, as if the perfection of God somehow automatically makes the Church perfect.

[HappyJackWagon]

16 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

It is not a false doctrine. There are many things about the Church that are perfect in spite of the fact that the members are imperfect. In fact, if all that existed in the Church was imperfection, no one could ever possibly be saved. If all that existed in the Church was imperfection, we would all just be busy spinning our wheels but going nowhere. Nowhere, that is, except down to perdition. It's because the Church has so many perfect elements within it that spiritual growth and salvation are possible.

It was originally my intent to list some of those many elements of perfection here, but if you're willing you can list some of them yourself. If you're unable to come up with anything, I'll chime in and begin to list some of them myself. But I'll give you a hint -- if those perfect elements did not exist, the Church would just shrivel up and die.

I'd love to see your list of ways in which the church is perfect. (My definition of "Perfect"- 1-without flaw, 2- complete

In my experience, anything touched by humans is flawed, thus discarding definition #1. It also seems that considering something "complete" is totally subjective and based on assumptions that no additional change will ever occur.

Edited March 31, 2016 by HappyJackWagon

[Ahab]

20 hours ago, mapman said:

I'd grant that there is little that is actually perfect. I happen to believe, and I think most Mormons would agree with me, that God is morally perfect (ie he is fully good) even if you grant that he is progressing in some way or isn't absolute in every single way. Also I think that the Gospel is a perfect path back to God. Even if I don't understand everything about the first principles of the Gospel, I trust in the Book of Mormon containing essential truths that can actually get us back to live with God. I also believe that Christ's love is perfect, his charity will never fail us. That's something I believe, though I doubt you'd agree.

Yes of course God is perfect, in every attribute. 

Just take my word for it while realizing consig uses hyperbole about as much as Donald H. Trump, with the H standing for hyperbolic in the extreme. 

[Bobbieaware]

5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Go for it. I double dog dare you.

And please do not confuse the Church with God or God's word or anything God does or says to the Church.

Yes, God (our Father) is perfect,  and so is our Lord, and the Holy Ghost can do a perfect job of perfecting the members of the Church if the members will simply cooperate and work with him/them, but God (our Father) and our Lord AND the Holy Ghost are completely set apart from the Church and are not even members of it.

Too many people tend to confuse God with the Church, as if the perfection of God somehow automatically makes the Church perfect.

I have much more to say beyond God's presence in the Church (remember Christ does not exist outside of the Church, he is an actual member of the Church, just like you and I). When I get around to revealing the answers (I'm quite busy today), some of you will be scratching your heads as to how you could have missed things that are obvious. Enjoy your anticipation (better yet, using the scriptures.as your guide, try to come up with some of the answers).

[Ahab]

5 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

I have much more to say beyond God's presence in the Church (remember Christ does not exist outside of the Church, he is an actual member of the Church, just like you and I). When I get around to revealing the answers (I'm quite busy today), some of you will be scratching your heads as to how you could have missed things that are obvious. Enjoy your anticipation (better yet, using the scriptures.as your guide, try to come up with some of the answers).

Yeah, sure, go ahead and explain to me how our Lord is a member of his/and our true Church.  I eagerly anticipate you telling me something I don't know about that. 

That would be kinda like saying a husband is his wife, or one of his wives, rather than a separate and distinct person set apart from and for his wife.  And the 2 of them being one, together, in unity, as a separate and distinct unit themselves, a married couple and together a family with each of them a member of that/their own family, still doesn't mean that a husband is... oh darn it, I figured it out... a part of his wife. 

I hope I'm not wrong again anytime soon.

[RevTestament]

On 3/31/2016 at 6:40 PM, mapman said:

I'd grant that there is little that is actually perfect. I happen to believe, and I think most Mormons would agree with me, that God is morally perfect (ie he is fully good) even if you grant that he is progressing in some way or isn't absolute in every single way. Also I think that the Gospel is a perfect path back to God. Even if I don't understand everything about the first principles of the Gospel, I trust in the Book of Mormon containing essential truths that can actually get us back to live with God. I also believe that Christ's love is perfect, his charity will never fail us. That's something I believe, though I doubt you'd agree.

I think I can safely say for Consig that what he means is that the Church's understanding of God is not perfect - not that God Himself is not perfect. Which I agree with. 

[Bobbieaware]

6 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yeah, sure, go ahead and explain to me how our Lord is a member of his/and our true Church.  I eagerly anticipate you telling me something I don't know about that. 

That would be kinda like saying a husband is his wife, or one of his wives, rather than a separate and distinct person set apart from and for his wife.  And the 2 of them being one, together, in unity, as a separate and distinct unit themselves, a married couple and together a family with each of them a member of that/their own family, still doesn't mean that a husband is... oh darn it, I figured it out... a part of his wife. 

I hope I'm not wrong again anytime soon.

Before I begin laying out my ideas, please read (or re-read) my post (it's the last post on page 1 of this thread) that speaks to the point that the Church couldn't perfectly fulfill its mission to help God bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man if it weren't for the presence of imperfection in the Church . Let me know if you agree or disagree with the ideas presented in that post (if you do disagree, please tell me why you disagree). It's important for me to know what you think before we move on to the next step.

[consiglieri]

16 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'd love to see your list of ways in which the church is perfect. (My definition of "Perfect"- 1-without flaw, 2- complete

In my experience, anything touched by humans is flawed, thus discarding definition #1. It also seems that considering something "complete" is totally subjective and based on assumptions that no additional change will ever occur.

I would think the Article of Faith that we believe God will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God militates against the idea the LDS Church is perfect.

The idea, frequently heard, that the "Church is perfect" is a warning bell.

Any Church that claims to be perfect immediately disqualifies itself not only from being perfect, but from being the church Joseph Smith established.

You know, the church that has the Articles of Faith canonized in its own scriptures?

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

I would think the Article of Faith that we believe God will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God militates against the idea the LDS Church is perfect.

The idea, frequently heard, that the "Church is perfect" is a warning bell.

Any Church that claims to be perfect immediately disqualifies itself not only from being perfect, but from being the church Joseph Smith established.

You know, the church that has the Articles of Faith canonized in its own scriptures?

Yeah but come on, you act as though messages from God, or at least that we attribute to God, can't provide some level of contradiction.  Sometimes I wonder if that's all we get so we can find ways to tell each other we each are more superior than the other. 

How can the Lord God be  pleased about a collective Church if that Church carries imperfections?  You cant' tell me the cute little saying about the Church being perfect did not come from Section 1 of the D&C. 

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

I would think the Article of Faith that we believe God will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God militates against the idea the LDS Church is perfect.

The idea, frequently heard, that the "Church is perfect" is a warning bell.

Any Church that claims to be perfect immediately disqualifies itself not only from being perfect, but from being the church Joseph Smith established.

You know, the church that has the Articles of Faith canonized in its own scriptures?

I kinda believe that the Church was designed from above to reflect heavenly order, and thus, in that sense may indeed perfectly reflect the things of God.

But to believe that "the Church" is perfect, and therefore everyone in the church is perfect or cannot go astray is obviously a dangerous belief. So I hear what you are saying but don't necessarily agree with all of it. 

[JAHS]

5 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Before I begin laying out my ideas, please read (or re-read) my post (it's the last post on page 1 of this thread)

I hate it when that happens. I'm afraid no one will see my post when it's the last one on a page.

[JLHPROF]

18 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yes of course God is perfect, in every attribute. 

Depends on your definition.

Brigham Young - If the first passage I have quoted is not worded to our understanding, we can alter the phraseology of the sentence, and say, “Be ye as perfect as ye can,” for that is all we can do, though it is written, be ye perfect as your Father who is in heaven is perfect. To be as perfect as we possibly can, according to our knowledge, is to be just as perfect as our Father in heaven is. He cannot be any more perfect than He knows how, any more than we. When we are doing as well as we know how in the sphere and station which we occupy here, we are justified in the justice, righteousness, mercy, and judgment that go before the Lord of heaven and earth. We are as justified as the angels who are before the throne of God.
 

[Ahab]

8 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Before I begin laying out my ideas, please read (or re-read) my post (it's the last post on page 1 of this thread) that speaks to the point that the Church couldn't perfectly fulfill its mission to help God bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man if it weren't for the presence of imperfection in the Church . Let me know if you agree or disagree with the ideas presented in that post (if you do disagree, please tell me why you disagree). It's important for me to know what you think before we move on to the next step.

Yes I agreed with your point there and I said as much 4 posts after that one.  The idea being that the Church (us, we the people) are not perfect as our Lord and Father are now but that with their help and through their power we can eventually become as perfect. 

Did you pick up on the other point I was making in my last post to you, though?  The idea being that we are now already perfect because our Lord is now joined/united with us (the Church) as his bride. We are now one with him, and he with us, just as a husband and wife become one when they get married and sealed to each other.  The wife taking on all that the husband gives to her by virtue of their new relationship to each other, and the husband taking on upon himself all that his wife has and gives too him.  Because of that bond we are already perfect through Christ, because of his perfection, even though on our own we are not or would not be perfect by ourselves. But we are not on our own as long as we are in the Church as his bride.

It's really neat how a husband and his wife (or wives) become a part of each other, with each benefitting from what each spouse has to offer.  He gives us perfection and we keep giving him grief. But joy too. There is and always will be opposition in all things, including a divine marriage. We still need to repent when we do something wrong though otherwise we will continue to do that something that is wrong without a course correction.  But still, because of our relationship to our Lord as his wife, we can be both wrong and perfect at the same time.

[Bobbieaware]

On April 1, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Ahab said:

Yes I agreed with your point there and I said as much 4 posts after that one.  The idea being that the Church (us, we the people) are not perfect as our Lord and Father are now but that with their help and through their power we can eventually become as perfect. 

Did you pick up on the other point I was making in my last post to you, though?  The idea being that we are now already perfect because our Lord is now joined/united with us (the Church) as his bride. We are now one with him, and he with us, just as a husband and wife become one when they get married and sealed to each other.  The wife taking on all that the husband gives to her by virtue of their new relationship to each other, and the husband taking on upon himself all that his wife has and gives too him.  Because of that bond we are already perfect through Christ, because of his perfection, even though on our own we are not or would not be perfect by ourselves. But we are not on our own as long as we are in the Church as his bride.

It's really neat how a husband and his wife (or wives) become a part of each other, with each benefitting from what each spouse has to offer.  He gives us perfection and we keep giving him grief. But joy too. There is and always will be opposition in all things, including a divine marriage. We still need to repent when we do something wrong though otherwise we will continue to do that something that is wrong without a course correction.  But still, because of our relationship to our Lord as his wife, we can be both wrong and perfect at the same time.

OK, I'm ready to re-engage on this thread.

I agree with much of what you said in the above post. But I would say Christ"s righteousness and moral perfection can only fully imputed to those who are retaining a remission of their sins by pressing forward with a steadfastness in Christ. That bond of perfection with Christ, of which you speak, i is interrupted as the Spirit is grieved, when the formerly justified saimt suffers himself to fall from grace. The Spirit of the Lord will not always strive with man. But overall you've made a very good and important point.

In an earlier post you dared me to prove something. Please remind me what it is you wanted me to prove?

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

OK, I'm ready to re-engage on this thread.

I agree with much of what you said in the above post. But I would say Christ"s righteousness and moral perfection can only fully imputed to those who are retaining a remission of their sins by pressing forward with a steadfastness in Christ. That bond of perfection with Christ, of which you speak, i is interrupted as the Spirit is grieved, when the formerly justified saimt suffers himself to fall from grace. The Spirit of the Lord will not always strive with man. But overall you've made a very good and important point.

In an earlier post you dared me to prove something. Please remind me what it is you wanted me to prove?

 

I pretty much agree with your post too but would say in reply that the Holy Spirit isn't grieved when we mess up as long as we regret messing up and keep trying to do better, as Elder Holland mentioned last Sunday.  

Nevermind proving your point now.  I figured it out as I thought more about it, or rather the Holy Spirit explained it to me.

[igonzals]

In my opinion the saying "The Church is perfect but its members are not" is incorrect if we take perfection as without any mistake and condradicts itself. Church are members, the community, the people.

The Church is the Christ's spouse, and like His spouse She is perfect in him (Moroni 10:32), because the scripture says "they were one flesh", so imperfect + perfect = perfect. The Church was gained and perfected through the atonement of Jesus Christ. It's only and by and through him that we are perfect. He give us - as a church - of his plenitude and grace. But from ourselves, as a human community, clearly the Church cannot be perfect. If this were the case, ¿what need would we have of ONE Savior? If Church were perfect She could save to herself:

"the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts 20:28)

But there are many using and abusing of that phrase by thinking and teaching others that leaders or members don't make mistakes or the Church cannot never err. The Church (the people) of God has mistakes because without Christ is the is a group composed of millions of sinners, repentant, penitent, inspired but still sinners.

But Christ is transforming and converting her perfect in his love (1 Cor 13). In this life, the next and eternities the process will continue and some day we will use the saying literally. That's what Theosis means! The Theosis is not only for individuals and families only.

The Savior was speaking to the Church when he said: "Be perfect" (Mt 5:48)

It would be nice if we gain a deeper comprehension about this and stop to use phrases that out-of-the-context are a lie.

Best Regards

 

[Damien the Leper]

On 4/1/2016 at 8:25 PM, Ahab said:

Yeah, sure, go ahead and explain to me how our Lord is a member of his/and our true Church.  I eagerly anticipate you telling me something I don't know about that. 

That would be kinda like saying a husband is his wife, or one of his wives, rather than a separate and distinct person set apart from and for his wife.  And the 2 of them being one, together, in unity, as a separate and distinct unit themselves, a married couple and together a family with each of them a member of that/their own family, still doesn't mean that a husband is... oh darn it, I figured it out... a part of his wife. 

I hope I'm not wrong again anytime soon.

Jesus was born and died a Jew. He did not convert to what would be later called Christianity. If Jesus is a member of the LDS church, which is ludicrous given the information we have, then a baptismal certificate and a record of confirmation should be provided. Merely being written about in an anonymous text and the re-confirming of that anonymous information from revelation that has no connection to the original source is very problematic. 

BTW, start reading "Jesus Before the Gospels" by Bart Ehrman. You'll feel better when you do. 

ETA: this is actually directed at Ms. Aware.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Valentinus