You were borned and bred in deepest Mormondom. You served a mission or went to school in America or Canada, in someplace profoundly "Gentile". Compare/contrast the experiences.

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I've lived in northern Virgina, Texas, and UT primarily (minus my mission....in which I lived in four different states, depending the transfer). But I consider myself an east coaster primarily. I didn't experience culture shock when I was 8-9 and living in UT. I loved it! It's still the only place that I remember crying when I left the state. 

The second time around I was an adult heading for college. The 3 things I noticed first that was weird to me: the high concentration of blondes, the ridiculous amount of people who looked around the same age as me but had babies, and having to check for wedding rings when I was flirting/checking someone out. But honestly I had a bigger shock moving to texas from Virginia the second time around than I did UT the first. Texas' obsession with religious affiliation, stratified racial categorizing, the idea that you could ban books from schools because the word brothel was found, weird prejudices/beliefs about mormons, and the insane flatness of the land were among some of the things that were really really weird to me there. 

In some ways, I don't feel like I get the more local UT experience directly. I've lived in a college town, attend a largely student singles ward, and most of my closest friends are minority transplants. So basically, minimal culture shock for me....the closest is when I talk to some of my UT-raised clients (especially those who've left the church in some way....the way they describe the church and their experiences just feel really foreign at times from my LDS experience) or when I go to a couple family wards further out. I found it entertaining when I had a UT Companion on my mission who was from the middle of nowhere UT and was definitely struggling with some culture shock. She would tell me something and I'd get this look of reaallly??? tell me more..... Like the fact that anyone would use chewing tobacco or this funny thing where guys would wear bands underneath their dress shirts because it was considered attractive by the ladies to have garments, or living in a town where your family has resided for a century and half of the place are distant relatives (really small town). I don't think she appreciated my curiosity that probably felt like wanting to flip through national geographic - rural UT edition.

But honestly, though UT has its quarks, it also varies from area to area and depends on the demographics you socialize with most, like any other state. It's predominate cultural religious influence just happens to be mormon, so you get some quarky things that way....but it felt no more quarky than when the predominate group were baptists.

 

With luv,

BD

Ok, I'll believe you.  I'd love to live in another state/country by way of service or the actual living there for 18 months as Senior Couples do.  That would give me the feel of living outside of Utah.  But you need a firm testimony to go on a mission.  If only I had the chance then I could compare, but w/o that I'm left to wonder.  And Ahab, I can't p/u and move w/o my hubby.  And he won't leave his job, so I'm pretty much stuck, unless I get a divorce or a temple recommend, but still I'd need my husband to quit his job.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

These comments beg the question as to why Utahans are bubbleheads.  If most are LDS this doesn't paint a good picture of Zion.  I'm a Utah native, I always wonder if I'll ever get out of Dodge.  The only way would have been an LDS mission in my senior years.  But I guess that won't likely happen now.  This is very depressing to me.  

Utah born and raised, I got to spend 3 weeks in Virginia..wow..it was so different..and I can't even put my finger on it.   Nobody stared..nobody judging..and it felt like a big weight was lifted and I could be me and that was okay!   Of course, Utah as a beautiful terrain can't compare.  For all the beauty of the ocean back East, I was ready for my mountains..really thought that I was going to drop off the earth!

Edited March 18, 2016 by Jeanne

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Mormonism thrives best when we are the spiritual elite surrounded by ignorant dullards to compare our superiority to.  

Which pretty much means that we thrive best wherever we go.

I still don't care much for city folk, or city living, though.

Anyone who prefers to live all jumbled up in apartment buildings or in houses that are only about 10'apart is just too weird for me.

 

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Utah born and raised, I got to spend 3 weeks in Virginia..wow..it was so different..and I can't even put my finger on it.   Nobody stared..nobody judging..and it felt like a big weight was lifted and I could be me and that was okay!   Of course, Utah as a beautiful terrain can't compare.  For all the beauty of the ocean back East, I was ready for my mountains..really thought that I was going to drop off the earth!

Jeanne, my once was neighbor went on a business trip to Virginia I believe and she fell in love with the people.  She compared their hospitality and outgoingness to Utahns.  And wouldn't quit talking about moving there and she is TBM to the max.  Just thought that was funny coming from her and how bad she hated the people in Utah!  

I agree, you can't find better than Utah for adventure and beauty with our glorious mountains!

Edited March 18, 2016 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Jeanne, my once was neighbor went on a business trip to Virginia I believe and she fell in love with the people.  She compared their hospitality and outgoingness to Utahns.  And wouldn't quit talking about moving there and she is TBM to the max.  Just thought that was funny coming from her and how bad she hated the people in Utah!  

I agree, you can't find better than Utah for adventure and beauty with our glorious mountains!  Funny thing I noticed though..they had funeral homes like we have ward houses.  I kid you not..on every other corner.

They are friendly people!!  I wanted to buy some property there at one time and move...but like I say, I kept looking for the mountains!

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I have lived for significant times in California (several cities in the Bay Area), Kansas, Illinois, and Canada and now Utah and a half year in Russia with many more years conversing with Russians.  In Canada I got to be good friends with those newly immigrated from Korea, China, and other places.

I don't find Utahns in general anymore isolated from reality or engaging in weirdness than any of the other places I have lived.  Each place seems to have its own cultural imprint that sees the rest of the world and itself in different ways than the other places see themselves and others and each had imo gaps in exposure to certain ideas, generally because they (speaking as a general culture, individuals always varied) just accepted as givens contrasting ideas and never questioned them.  It seems like expectations of what someone will find is often the greatest influence of what ends up being perceived.  

It was very interesting to hear the perceptions of the US from nonAmericans.  They were very perceptive in many ways, but also imo messed up when they started comparing the States to their own country.  Seems like people do better in just trying to learn about a country without comparing it to others.

I kind of hate to say this, but when I was in eastern europe, it felt quite safe compared to the US.  There were four of us in the same extended family, almost always together, so we had no fear personally about staying out late and returning to the hotels by subway, etc, or simply walking.  But what was amazing is that we would see single women and sometimes young girls taking the subway alone late at night, or walking home through empty, dark urban streets at 10 or 11 pm, seemingly without a concern in the world..

I would have never done that in NY City, even with four people, and would never do it in LA either in comparable neighborhoods.  Europe looks old to we Americans, and even nice neighborhoods can look "run down" and somewhat scary without much street lighting.  In NYC, returning home on a subway after work at night,  I would walk down the middle of a deserted street with my head on a swivel- in Europe there was no such concern, even with all you hear about the Russian "mafia" etc.  Of course the safest neighborhood in NYC is Little Italy.  Mafiosos do not tolerate petty criminals, after all they have families too.   There are places in LA that are not even safe in a car day or night- the drug dealers will actually come out in a group - men and women- and stop your car waving you down as if they are in trouble.  One detriment of women's equality is that a woman alone at night might just as well be out to mug someone as much as a man.

This organization keeps statistics of crime and other interesting facts- but this map shows world crime rates you can zoom in on if you like.  But notice that Europe in general has many more green icons than are found in the US- while most of the US shows as yellow brown or red, which means higher crime rates. 

http://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings.jsp?indexToShow=main&title=2016&OK=OK

SLC shows as dark green, the safest designation.  And I am presuming that the largest city in Utah probably has the highest per capita crime.But that fact alone I think shows that Utahns do not have some of the concerns that others face on a daily basis.  Good for them!  But on the other hand, I think that makes them insulated and perhaps unaware of the "real world"- a phrase I am hearing a lot on this thread.  

If your only perceived danger in life is the non-members down the street, and who their kids play with, perhaps that could change one.

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

They are friendly people!!  I wanted to buy some property there at one time and move...but like I say, I kept looking for the mountains!

I gotta be by the ocean!  Not too many of those in Utah.  Besides, the Salt Lake smells funny.

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

I gotta be by the ocean!  Not too many of those in Utah.  Besides, the Salt Lake smells funny.

I was in awe at the ocean..kayaking and then the full moon at night..wow..but driving around in town and city I was just befuddled..it was like a long road going no where fast.  When I visited Oregon for the first time..loved it..and then started to think...get me out of these trees!!

[mnn727]

32 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

But honestly I had a bigger shock moving to texas from Virginia the second time around than I did UT the first. Texas' obsession with religious affiliation, stratified racial categorizing, the idea that you could ban books from schools because the word brothel was found, weird prejudices/beliefs about mormons,

Lived in TX (Dallas area) for 16 years now and have not experienced any of that. 

There also is a higher concentration of Mormons here than anywhere else I have lived. My northern suburb of Dallas has a Stake within its borders. But then there are over 250,000 people in my suburb.

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I gotta be by the ocean!  Not too many of those in Utah.  Besides, the Salt Lake smells funny.

My son and his friend have been living in a car this past week for Spring Break near Huntington Beach and showering in the 24 Hour Fitness gyms nearby.  They slept in the car to avoid paying for a hotel and then lived like tourists during the day, so glad they made it safe and sound back to Utah!  But yeah, I too love the ocean.  I had California relatives and my cousins and my siblings and I would spout, "we have the mountains" and they would spout "we have the ocean"...so your statement brought back memories!  

I'll never forget a visit to my aunt's house in Torrence, LA and we were driving down the road with my family and aunt, and when stopped at a traffic light we looked over and saw my high school cousin ditching school riding his bike with friends, and he was wearing short cut offs with no undies and I got an eyeful as a youngster.  Oh my aunt was mad!!  

Edited March 18, 2016 by Tacenda

[saemo]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

These comments beg the question as to why Utahans are bubbleheads.  If most are LDS this doesn't paint a good picture of Zion.  I'm a Utah native, I always wonder if I'll ever get out of Dodge.  The only way would have been an LDS mission in my senior years.  But I guess that won't likely happen now.  This is very depressing to me.  

 

I cry when coming back into this State, after being away for a while. There are times I just hate it here, and other times I can appreciate aspects of Utah, and I can convince myself it's not that bad. At least for a while. It is the culture that I just really do not like, at all, and the smoggy winters. And the lack of anything that grows. Life here is eeking out an existence. When I look at jobs its all shyster-y corporations and multi level marketers... and the name Bountiful is wishful thinking! 

 

I'd get outta Dodge, but the DH ain't budgin'.

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, saemo said:

 

I cry when coming back into this State, after being away for a while. There are times I just hate it here, and other times I can appreciate aspects of Utah, and I can convince myself it's not that bad. At least for a while. It is the culture that I just really do not like, at all, and the smoggy winters. And the lack of anything that grows. Life here is eeking out an existence. When I look at jobs its all shyster-y corporations and multi level marketers... and the name Bountiful is wishful thinking! 

 

I'd get outta Dodge, but the DH ain't budgin'.

Smoggy winters are horrible but you may be right, it's probably the culture.  I just got finished reading this blog by Al, the tattooed Mormon girl ;).  In it she shares a story about people's reaction to her here in Utah.  Two of the blogs I read she shared a story about how they reacted to her in Utah.  Here is the link, pretty sad!  http://alfoxshead.blogspot.com/2013/04/tattooed-mormon.html  PS:  She hates being called the tattooed Mormon girl.  

[strappinglad]

The only thing that drives me crazy about Utah is.... the drivers.

 

Oh, and the award for longest thread title goes to...

Edited March 19, 2016 by strappinglad

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Keq82 said:

No worries!  Where in Russia did you live?  

Moscow.  My husband taught at one of the universities there...can't remember its name at the moment.  We were there in 95.

Went on a volga cruise ship a few years before when Americans/Canadians were still a novelty.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Oh to be as well rounded as you Calm.  I feel like such a hick.

I need to live south of the equator in a couple of places before I can claim to be well rounded and someplace in Europe...though I have been told Moscow is quite European...though crime was bad when we were there, a friend of my husband's was assassinated and my brother-in-law was warned by the US State Dept to give up trying to maintain control over his company and if he came back, he would most likely end up dead.  A friend of my bil was also put in a coma when mugged by gypsies.  Our door was like a bank vault (we rented someone's apt home on the second ring road that circles through Moscow, the place had been built by German war prisoners). Once you got to know people (through other people), they were great, but we couldn't even get the shop assistants to talk to us.  Just took our order without speaking or smiling.  There was this one great English literature professor who spoke to me and my daughter at a bus stop after church asking if I was doing a spell because we were practicing the sign language to the song As I have Loved You, he had always wanted to visit England but never could.  We played dumb tourists one other time to get directions from a young couple, but other than that no smilies in the city.  Different out in the country.  My husband had 30 or more kids following him around when he was flying the paraglider kites.  That was fun.  Getting chased by geese, not so much.

[saemo]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Smoggy winters are horrible but you may be right, it's probably the culture.  I just got finished reading this blog by Al, the tattooed Mormon girl ;).  In it she shares a story about people's reaction to her here in Utah.  Two of the blogs I read she shared a story about how they reacted to her in Utah.  Here is the link, pretty sad!  http://alfoxshead.blogspot.com/2013/04/tattooed-mormon.html  PS:  She hates being called the tattooed Mormon girl.  

Oh the Utahism, misuse of the word, "ignernt", comes to mind.  Honestly, my refuge here is my Catholic faith. I can totally relate to anyone whose faith gets them through life in Utah. 

But this reminds me of a Mormon woman I worked with years ago who came to work one day and showed me her new tattoo on her tummy. Lifting up her shirt and her temple garments to show me the new artwork. I said, what, a Mormon getting tattoos? She said she didn't really believe, just went along for her family, and she was ok doing so. No biggie to her, the going along and the getting tattoos.

Anyone in my family gets a tattoo and it's the family gossip I hear for months! It is very brave to be a tattoo'd Mormon woman in these parts. Where I work now, I think it is more the unusual person who doesn't have ink somewhere on themselves. Personally, not for me. I've only considered getting one and that is a discreet cross. But then I see how it's done and think a necklace is just fine for me! That alone, makes the family gossip circuit! Ha! 

[Meadowchik]

Grew up in the DFW area, spent near a decade in Provo, lived also in Indiana, Switzerland, and southern France and Alsace in France. 

Being and staying Mormon and European seems more challenging in regards to finding your own family and your own niche near church. People here go much further to find other Mormons for socialising.  By contrast, it seems that to be TBM and fully engaged in Church, one has to live quite close to the chapel, typically, though not a rule obviously. It's just that of all things gas prices can be prohibitive. It costs me 20 euros to drive to church, roundtrip. So there's no way our ward can have the activities like they have stateside. The gas alone would quickly eclipse what most pay in tithing. Perhaps that's why the long time members in our ward seem to have planned their homes around the church location, or at least they reside within the main city limits. Even then, the level of member activities/schedules we see in a month are probably closer to that of a typical US ward in a week.

On another note, I've learned that there are still quite conservative folks in more liberal places and the members I've met tend to be quite conservative. Other very conservative folks are of the quite religious sort, like my evangelical friend who replaces "magic" with "power" when she reads the Narnia books.

It's interesting. I grew up being a minority (Mormon) within a majority  (Christian) culture in Texas. So the culture in a more global scale was aligned with my political agenda/issue values althougg I did not have the social "in." At BYU I got to see the Church translated into institutional form and the professional version, too, ie people having to agree to the Honor Code as part of their jobs and jobs being infused with LDS aims and beliefs.

Where I've lived in Europe, though, people are a less open and welcoming to newcomers. Being Mormon is way less a factor--in regards to bring an oddball--than being American or not Swiss or not local. It sure does promote a sense of closeness to other outsiders here, though

I bought our bed from a fellow expat in Zurich, half of a gay couple*** moving back to Brazil. He spent more than an hour loading my purchases into my car and talking the whole time. A lovely engaging person himself, he remarked how much friendlier and warmer people are in Brazil and that's one thing he doesn't like about Zurich, the social life tends to be more dull. Another time I bought lamps from a married woman who was returning to Fargo, North Dakota. She was excited to go home but lamented about leaving the excitement and adventure of Zurich. I thought the juxtaposition of the dull/exciting perception of Zurich to be quite amusing.

*** There was something I noticed in retrospect about this gay couple that I found very illuminating but I might make another thread topic with it.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Meadowchik

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

So your point?  Are we, Utah  Mormons, backwards or not?

Of course not (except that Utah Valley is a throwback to the 1950s), but I didn't know that in my California days, and I finally came to realize that some good things could even come out of Gusher and Panguitch.  For example, Carol Lynn Pearson is from Gusher, Utah.

[Mars]

i don't think people in utah judge as much as some who feel judged think they do.

[BlueDreams]

16 hours ago, mnn727 said:

Lived in TX (Dallas area) for 16 years now and have not experienced any of that. 

There also is a higher concentration of Mormons here than anywhere else I have lived. My northern suburb of Dallas has a Stake within its borders. But then there are over 250,000 people in my suburb.

That's funny, I lived almost right on top of you....or really really close. My family attends the Allen Stake, though at the time it was part of the mckinney stake. And to be fair, this experience was largely when I was a teen. Teens aren't known for being gentle with their opinions. I remember watching one of my peers getting bullied for being LDS in 9th grade. In frustration he turned and said why don't you bother her about it, she's also LDS. They were shocked, because I didn't fit their picture of what a mormon is...looks wise and behavioral.  I would get really really weird questions about my beliefs that often followed when their pastor or church had some special on the mormons. I remember listening to a christian radio special on us (needless to say it was really inaccurate). Etc. This was probably most confusing to me because I'd just moved from an area where religious differences weren't a big deal and rarely brought up. All the sudden i'm in a place where people would ask frequently what church I attended. 

The racial stratification, was more along the lines of stereotype and expectations. You were either black, white or mexican....but they didn't really have a category for someone who was in some ways all three. The south in general is more stratified in racial terms, and for a mixed girl who ID's primarily as mixed race...it gets on your nerves after a while. And though I was seen as black by many thanks to the one-drop perspective that was still very prevalent, it could all the sudden be recognized that I was half-white when it came out that I was also mormon. I still remember sitting and having someone go "how can you be mormon? You're black" then pause and go "But you're mom's white, right? That makes sense" Basically being only half-black somehow made being in a perceived racist white church understandable....which brings another stereotype of self-hating mixed folk. 

My IB english class had a book banned (one that was a favorite) called House of Spirits by Isabelle Allende. It is still on my list of favorite books and she is one of my favorite authors. The class was written as a college level english course reading college level books that were geared toward social/world issues. It was written right into the syllabus. But a mom found the word brothel in it (there are far more controversial things in it then the mention of a brothel) and she was a very conservative christian. She got in cahoots with the school and a bunch of other conservative parents who put pressure to have the book removed...and it was removed the next year. And you should have seen the halabaloo the kids got into when we were taught evolution in 9th grade biology. I couldn't figure it out because the video sounded a lot like the creation anyways if you weren't so literal. My friend at the time said of course, you're mormon....like that would explain why I didn't have an issue with evolution.

This, plus the fact that I hated the weather there, and that I had moved on average every 2 years up (shortest move was 7 months....also texas) until my 4 year stay in TX meant I was itching to leave the state. When I applied to colleges my only qualification was that it wasn't in Texas. Besides, I am a vegetarian who doesn't care for football. It was never going to work out  

 

With luv,

BD

Edited March 19, 2016 by BlueDreams

[Rain]

On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Jeanne said:

Utah born and raised, I got to spend 3 weeks in Virginia..wow..it was so different..and I can't even put my finger on it.   Nobody stared..nobody judging..and it felt like a big weight was lifted and I could be me and that was okay!   Of course, Utah as a beautiful terrain can't compare.  For all the beauty of the ocean back East, I was ready for my mountains..really thought that I was going to drop off the earth!

 

On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Tacenda said:

Jeanne, my once was neighbor went on a business trip to Virginia I believe and she fell in love with the people.  She compared their hospitality and outgoingness to Utahns.  And wouldn't quit talking about moving there and she is TBM to the max.  Just thought that was funny coming from her and how bad she hated the people in Utah!  

I agree, you can't find better than Utah for adventure and beauty with our glorious mountains!

I would suspect the friendliness was a southern thing rather than an LDS or Utah thing. You get the same kind of thing with people visiting the south from the north or other states. 

And there is a difference living there verses visiting.  My family visited Tennessee for a month when I was 16. I couldn't believe how different it seemed.  Later my family lived there and we found that most of those differences were just on the surface.  All the problems and goodness are in both places. 

Like several have said every place has its own quirks.  I think some quirks just stand out more though.   The south is known for its warmth and friendliness, but get past the surface and it can be biting at times. NYC and France known for being cold, but spend more time and you find lots of friendliness, though how it is shown is probably different Just to be clear, I am NOT saying the south is bad. Just that you will find all kinds of people in all places. 

Which goes back to the thread topic. I think the bigger difference is small town verses large town rather than UT/ID/mormon verses gentile town. There will be a difference between where 100% of the people are living the gospel of Christ and 100% are not and that's a good thing, but very rarely is that talked about.  What is usually talked about is "cultural Mormonism" and my experience tells me that had far less to do with Mormonism,  but with the sense of place that everyone experiences, most people miss because they are in the midst of it and are used to it.  

Edited March 19, 2016 by Rain

[Calm]

Anyone thinking of getting a tattoo should thoroughly investigate what happens to the ink, which may collect in lymph nodes among other things:

http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm048919.htm

"FDA has not approved any tattoo pigments for injection into the skin. This applies to all tattoo pigments, including those used for ultraviolet (UV) and glow-in-the-dark tattoos. Many pigments used in tattoo inks are industrial-grade colors suitable for printers' ink or automobile paint"

Edited March 19, 2016 by Calm

[Mars]

also, utah isn't my favorite place.  cache valley is fantastic.  the rest of utah?  meh.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Mars said:

also, utah isn't my favorite place.  cache valley is fantastic.  the rest of utah?  meh.

GOAGS!

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Mars said:

also, utah isn't my favorite place.  cache valley is fantastic.  the rest of utah?  meh.

That is kind of how I feel.  I moved back to Tooele County for a while..had to come back.  So pretty and clean up here!