VideoGameJunkie Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 3 hours ago, california boy said: With all due respect to Mystery Meat, I think he asked the wrong question. Of course we know the answer the the question about gay members that most TBM will give. "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it" or some variation of that. If you want to have a real discussion about how much church membership is worth to you, Let's change the question. Are you willing to give up your wife to be a member of the church? Are you willing to give up your children to be a member of the church? Now think about the implications, knowing that every night of the rest of your life you will be coming home to an empty apartment. Think about not having your kids around for Christmas, and other holidays or a single day of your life. Think about the real possibility of spending those holidays alone, in your room. Think about not ever even dating anyone. Think about NEVER even hoping that at some point you may find an eternal companion on earth and live the life that every fiber in your soul tells you that you want to live. Now to quote Mystery Meat Except the very core of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is taken from you. Does church membership still appeal to you when you can not participate in the very core of what that church centers on? Are you willing to go sunday after sunday and hear messages of being with a family you can not have for eternity? If the core of the church is not available to you, then what is left? A hollow shell. But wait there is more. After you die. After you have experienced this wonderful life of loneliness with no wife or kids you are instead promised to NEVER have that wife and family that you now so dearly love. Yes, that is right. You are guaranteed that you will never be with your family that you gave up to be a member of the church. Instead, there is some hint that you MAY be able to marry someone of the same sex as you. Yeah that sounds thrilling doesn't it. But wait, there is also some hint that you MAY actually desire someone of the same sex as you. I know that the whole time you were on earth, that never was something that worked. But hey, it is POSSIBLE that you will be magically changed into someone you were not during your entire life on earth. Does membership in the church still appeal to you? Now lets have a real discussion. Who is signing up and WHY do you want to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. One of the blessings of being straight and in the church is that we can possibly receive wives for eternity. Who wouldn't want that?
The Nehor Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 2 hours ago, california boy said: NO On this earth life, no matter how much you repent and conform, you would not be allowed to have a family here on earth. That is what you are asked to give up. Are you willing to do THAT for membership in the church? I already have. 1
webbles Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 First, I would hope no one says "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it" since Christ never said that. But as for your question, yes, I would divorce my wife to join the church. It is the only thing that gives me hope in this life. And I would look forward to the day when I would find a man that I could live with for eternity (either in this life or the next). I would still socialize with my wife and my children and I would expect to continue to socialize with them after this life, though. I don't see any reason why I would be required to stop socializing with them.
Hamba Tuhan Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 15 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I already have. Same.
Calm Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said: One of the blessings of being straight and in the church is that we can possibly receive wives for eternity. Who wouldn't want that? Me.
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 18 minutes ago, Calm said: Me. Your mind could change once the veil is taken off. Just kidding of course. 1
rodheadlee Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 2 hours ago, california boy said: You are missing the point of this thread. The question is, how many straight members of the church would be willing to give up their wife and children for membership in the church. So the question is to you. Would you be willing to give up your wife and children in order to be a member of the church? You gave up your wife and children for a gay lover. Now you are going to squeal about the consequences. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. 4
Robert F. Smith Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 4 hours ago, california boy said: NO On this earth life, no matter how much you repent and conform, you would not be allowed to have a family here on earth. That is what you are asked to give up. Are you willing to do THAT for membership in the church? Isn't that what the Shakers actually did? Many religions make that very demand -- if you choose to be a monk, nun, or priest within some forms of Christianity or Buddhism. Those may entail tough commitments, but there are indeed people who take those covenants. Cheerfully. 3
california boy Posted March 8, 2016 Author Posted March 8, 2016 2 hours ago, USU78 said: I've long thought the employment of the appellation "gay" to describe the sad and lonely and unfulfilling life of the homosexual is a cruel and cynical and not funny at all joke Well most gays live wonderful and very fulfilled lives. Just not in the church. I know it is difficult for many in the church to understand that choice. 1
california boy Posted March 8, 2016 Author Posted March 8, 2016 3 hours ago, Storm Rider said: NO, you are using an unfair and unrealistic standard to create your argument. If one is converted is it possible to conform one's life to Christ's will? If so, why are you putting up absolutes? I am willing to take upon me the name of Christ; I am willing to forfeit my will and take on his will for me. That is what is asked of every disciple of Christ. Do you really think you, or any other gay person, is beyond that request to "Come follow me"? That unfair and unrealistic standard is very real to a lot of gay members of the church. Kinda sobering huh. 1
Sky Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 15 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: You gave up your wife and children for a gay lover. Now you are going to squeal about the consequences. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. “As a church, nobody should be more loving and compassionate. Let us be at the forefront in terms of expressing love, compassion and outreach. Let’s not have families exclude or be disrespectful of those who choose a different lifestyle as a result of their feelings about their own gender.” - Quentin L. Cook Looks like we've still got a long ways to go with that, unfortunately. 2
california boy Posted March 8, 2016 Author Posted March 8, 2016 1 hour ago, webbles said: First, I would hope no one says "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it" since Christ never said that. But as for your question, yes, I would divorce my wife to join the church. It is the only thing that gives me hope in this life. And I would look forward to the day when I would find a man that I could live with for eternity (either in this life or the next). I would still socialize with my wife and my children and I would expect to continue to socialize with them after this life, though. I don't see any reason why I would be required to stop socializing with them. Two thumbs up to you.
california boy Posted March 8, 2016 Author Posted March 8, 2016 20 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: You gave up your wife and children for a gay lover. Now you are going to squeal about the consequences. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. Thanks. You think you know me. You don't. Which is why your judgement means NOTHING to me. And yes, I noticed you weren't willing to say you would be willing to leave your wife and family for memebership in the church 2
Storm Rider Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 1 hour ago, california boy said: That unfair and unrealistic standard is very real to a lot of gay members of the church. Kinda sobering huh. Cal, I understand your position that you take. I understand that you have put your sexuality first in your life. I understand why any of us can or would do that - it is so much a part of us that it is easy to surrender to our desires. However, to be a disciple is not easy and it is not intended to be easy. It is not easy for anyone regardless of their sexual preference. Regardless, Christ asks of us to follow him and keep his commandments. The question remains: will we respond to his call or not. 3
california boy Posted March 8, 2016 Author Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: Cal, I understand your position that you take. I understand that you have put your sexuality first in your life. I understand why any of us can or would do that - it is so much a part of us that it is easy to surrender to our desires. However, to be a disciple is not easy and it is not intended to be easy. It is not easy for anyone regardless of their sexual preference. Regardless, Christ asks of us to follow him and keep his commandments. The question remains: will we respond to his call or not. NO NO, NO, I didn't put my sexuality first. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Why to members of the church just not get this. I put living a full and happy life with someone I care about and deeply love rather than membership in the church. I also know that the church promises me that I can't be with him in the next life even if I was faithful, celibate and denied myself a life of no companionship in this life. And yes, I am willing to live with the consequences of that decision. Did you get that??? That was my choice. I see no point in being miserable in this life as well as the next. Yeah I know you have this wonderful plan of happiness to look forward to where you will be with your beloved wife for eternity. I have no such promise. Maybe you would be happy spending eternity with someone assigned to you, but I am not looking forward to that. Perhaps you would make a different choice. I made that choice for ALL THE SAME REASONS you made the choice to find a companion to share this life with. This is NOT about sexuality. Geeze. How many times do we have to do this. Would you be willing to give up your life with your wife and family on this earth as well as your children for a promise that you too could marry someone of the same sex in the next life? That is the question. So far only a handful of members have answered that question yes. Edited March 8, 2016 by california boy 3
Popular Post Meadowchik Posted March 8, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 8, 2016 8 hours ago, california boy said: NO On this earth life, no matter how much you repent and conform, you would not be allowed to have a family here on earth. That is what you are asked to give up. Are you willing to do THAT for membership in the church? Question does not apply. The Church does not prohibit marriage and family. Reality check: there are hetero couples with more, possibly more difficult, differences between them than sexual orientation. Some have both and still find happiness and fulfillment. Personally I think what people have done in attaching identity to sexuality has created a disproportionate emphasis on what generates good relationships. 5
Meadowchik Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 55 minutes ago, california boy said: NO NO, NO, I didn't put my sexuality first. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Why to members of the church just not get this. I put living a full and happy life with someone I care about and deeply love rather than membership in the church. I also know that the church promises me that I can't be with him in the next life even if I was faithful, celibate and denied myself a life of no companionship in this life. And yes, I am willing to live with the consequences of that decision. Did you get that??? That was my choice. I see no point in being miserable in this life as well as the next. Yeah I know you have this wonderful plan of happiness to look forward to where you will be with your beloved wife for eternity. I have no such promise. Maybe you would be happy spending eternity with someone assigned to you, but I am not looking forward to that. Perhaps you would make a different choice. I made that choice for ALL THE SAME REASONS you made the choice to find a companion to share this life with. This is NOT about sexuality. Geeze. How many times do we have to do this. Would you be willing to give up your life with your wife and family on this earth as well as your children for a promise that you too could marry someone of the same sex in the next life? That is the question. So far only a handful of members have answered that question yes. Some may "get it," really. Ultimately, none of us in the trenches of life "know" we will have each other in Heaven. Even if we choose it, they might not. I think that a honest, loving relationship striving toward truth will eventually yield the ability to love a person deeply, regardless of their gender or anything else. So with those genuine efforts, we'll all get around to loving deeply and unconditionally. What comes next is what God has planned, and I think as we draw closer to Him, we'll want and be able to reach what He wants for us. And ultimately, no good relationship will be lost in the next life, but doubtless every one of them will be transformed into a more perfect state. 1
Maedros Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 I've given it all up dude - family and friends and employment: all to serve the Lord God of Joseph Smith: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the whole earth. The problem I find with you disgruntled members is your exposure to what I call 'mormon culture' - this born-into-the-church holier-than-thou, we-trekked-to-Utah and are the chosen-people BS maxim that is pride-filled and is the cause of so much apostasy among you because of its cult style of blind stupidity; no wonder the majority of church membership is outside of the corrupt USA; because outside of the US: we don't care much for the voortrekker traditionalism and your pageants and molly-mormon superficiality. The pillars of a testimony are all that matter - and good plain old faith in Jesus Christ coupled with kindness and tolerance.
Bobbieaware Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) First, I would hope no one says "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it" since Christ never said that. But as for your question, yes, I would divorce my wife to join the church. It is the only thing that gives me hope in this life. And I would look forward to the day when I would find a man that I could live with for eternity (either in this life or the next). I would still socialize with my wife and my children and I would expect to continue to socialize with them after this life, though. I don't see any reason why I would be required to stop socializing with them. Jesus may have not said those exact words, but his inspired servant, the apostle Paul, said words that convey precisely the same meaning: 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time arenot worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:16-18) Edited March 8, 2016 by Bobbieaware 2
Popular Post Rain Posted March 8, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 8, 2016 14 hours ago, california boy said: So are you willing to state that YOU would give up your wife and children and the promise to be with them for eternity in order to be a member of the church? Because that is what is being asked here. I went through this process a number of years ago, except it went farther. I felt in order to get the answer to one of my questions I needed to be willing to also give up the church and my home and my life here on earth as well. To follow God I knew I had to be willing to give up everything and I went through possible consequences of various answers he could give me and my responsibilities with those answers. I knew, depending on the answer, the strife it could cause in my marriage and other relationships, the ability to take care of myself as a SAHM, the problems with getting a job that would have the insurance for my type 1 diabetes etc. I realized that depending on the answer to my question I could lose everything except God's love for me. It took time before I was ready to give all that up. I had to make sure I honestly was willing. When I finally felt that way I asked the Lord my question with peace in my heart that come what may I was doing the right thing. Years before this I was praying over another matter. Very clearly Heavenly Father told me not to "quibble" over what I wanted. That there were greater blessings than the one I was asking for. I can see now that it helped with the answer I first talked about. I had faith that there were greater blessings in following God than my understanding. So no, I would not be willing to give all those things up for the church, but yes I would be willing to give up all those things up and the church to follow God. So far He wants me to follow Him through the church and at this point I don't see that changing. I believe that is because He created the church to help me follow Him. I do not know what it is like to be in your shoes. No matter how you feel - that you should live the way you do or not - there is a great burden on you (at the very least how it affects relationships with family, former family or friends) and I do not envy it. I hope the best for you. 6
Storm Rider Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 7 hours ago, california boy said: NO NO, NO, I didn't put my sexuality first. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Why to members of the church just not get this. I put living a full and happy life with someone I care about and deeply love rather than membership in the church. I also know that the church promises me that I can't be with him in the next life even if I was faithful, celibate and denied myself a life of no companionship in this life. And yes, I am willing to live with the consequences of that decision. Did you get that??? That was my choice. I see no point in being miserable in this life as well as the next. Yeah I know you have this wonderful plan of happiness to look forward to where you will be with your beloved wife for eternity. I have no such promise. Maybe you would be happy spending eternity with someone assigned to you, but I am not looking forward to that. Perhaps you would make a different choice. I made that choice for ALL THE SAME REASONS you made the choice to find a companion to share this life with. This is NOT about sexuality. Geeze. How many times do we have to do this. Would you be willing to give up your life with your wife and family on this earth as well as your children for a promise that you too could marry someone of the same sex in the next life? That is the question. So far only a handful of members have answered that question yes. Cal, I did get that; I did understand your choice; I have not misunderstood you. However, your choice puts you outside of discipleship with Christ. Christ demands, he requires, that he is first; that he is our choice. You have consciously chosen to put someone else in the place of Jesus in your life. No, you have not made the same choice as I did and you based your choice on different criteria. YES, IT IS ABOUT SEXUALITY FOR YOU. You may prefer that it be recognized and discussed as a love story of the ages and full of drama, the wind blowing in your hair as you struggle to find your true love. The problem is that you knew that Jesus was to have been bridegroom and you did not wait him. You ran off with the butler because you chose instant gratification over waiting for eternity. The wind wasn't blowing in your air and it was not heroic. It was the same sordid choice each sinner makes when we choose to sin over choosing to live fully for the Savior. You are no different than the rest of humanity except that you are proud of your choice and continue to want to stick to it. We each have a choice. Sin is integral to our existence in this mortal world. We are carnal by nature in this physical world. Each of us is and no one is immune. We each must choose between a life of sin - regardless of what the sin is - and a life dedicated to spiritual laws. It is not easy for anyone; it is a lifetime process of repenting and renewing our commitment to follow our Master. You don't seem to like anyone's answer. Yes, I will choose the Savior; I have chosen the Savior as my Master. Were it not so my life would be very different, but I am his and he is mine. He lived and died for me and I cannot abandon him. I fail him miserably - I sin constantly. I am always in some form of repentance, but he is always there and his Grace is sufficient for me to be forgiven. I choose Jesus over all others. 2
webbles Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: Jesus may have not said those exact words, but his inspired servant, the apostle Paul, said words that convey precisely the same meaning: 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time arenot worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:16-18) The quote said "I never said it would be easy". But in fact, Christ did say it would be easy. 28 ¶Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Matthew 11: 28-30) So, sure, there will be sufferings and tribulations and difficulties (Christ also spoke of them). And the end result will be glorious (also spoken by Christ). But if we take his yoke, He has promised that His yoke will be easy and His burden will be light. So, the quote (at least the first part) is completely false. He definitely said that it would be easy. 1
rodheadlee Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 11 hours ago, california boy said: Thanks. You think you know me. You don't. Which is why your judgement means NOTHING to me. And yes, I noticed you weren't willing to say you would be willing to leave your wife and family for memebership in the church It's not a judgement, it's a statement of fact. Were you not sealed to your wife and children? I believe you have said so here on the board.Your question cannot apply to me as I have been commanded to "go and be sealed unto my wife". But theoretically yes, we are required to give up everything to follow Christ. Many have given up family and even their own lives to follow Christ. The scripture has already been quoted to back this up. 1
Mystery Meat Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 8 hours ago, california boy said: NO NO, NO, I didn't put my sexuality first. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Why to members of the church just not get this. I put living a full and happy life with someone I care about and deeply love rather than membership in the church. I also know that the church promises me that I can't be with him in the next life even if I was faithful, celibate and denied myself a life of no companionship in this life. And yes, I am willing to live with the consequences of that decision. Did you get that??? That was my choice. I see no point in being miserable in this life as well as the next. Yeah I know you have this wonderful plan of happiness to look forward to where you will be with your beloved wife for eternity. I have no such promise. Maybe you would be happy spending eternity with someone assigned to you, but I am not looking forward to that. Perhaps you would make a different choice. I made that choice for ALL THE SAME REASONS you made the choice to find a companion to share this life with. This is NOT about sexuality. Geeze. How many times do we have to do this. Would you be willing to give up your life with your wife and family on this earth as well as your children for a promise that you too could marry someone of the same sex in the next life? That is the question. So far only a handful of members have answered that question yes. What about trusting God? Does that not play a part? If our roles were reversed and SSM was the Lord's standard, I would accept it because I trust that God knows what would make me happy, if not in this life than the next. You seem to think it impossible for God to make you happy as something other than a gay man in the next life. I find that sad. And let's not kid ourselves, this has everything to do with sexuality. And no me and you did not make a choice about whom to marry for "ALL THE SAME REASONS." Our reasons were likely very different.
Gray Posted March 8, 2016 Posted March 8, 2016 8 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: What about trusting God? Does that not play a part? If our roles were reversed and SSM was the Lord's standard, I would accept it because I trust that God knows what would make me happy, if not in this life than the next. You seem to think it impossible for God to make you happy as something other than a gay man in the next life. I find that sad. And let's not kid ourselves, this has everything to do with sexuality. And no me and you did not make a choice about whom to marry for "ALL THE SAME REASONS." Our reasons were likely very different. Sexual orientation is about way more than sex.
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