Why would any straight person want to be a member of the COJCOLDS?

[Gray]

The responses directed at California Boy very aptly demonstrate that we really have nothing to offer gay members or prospective members. We have a lot to offer for people who fit the mold, but we haven't figured out a way to include people who do not. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Gray

[CV75]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

The responses directed at California Boy very aptly demonstrate that we really have nothing to offer gay members or prospective members.

Not all; not mine!

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, Gray said:

The responses directed at California Boy very aptly demonstrate that we really have nothing to offer gay members or prospective members. We have a lot to offer for people who fit the mold, but we haven't figured out a way to include people who do not. 

Then we should take it upon ourselves to rewrite the commandments of God to be more inclusive and pleasing. That should end well.

[will227457]

17 hours ago, california boy said:

If you want to have a real discussion about how much church membership is worth to you, Let's change the question.  Are you willing to give up your wife to be a member of the church?  Are you willing to give up your children to be a member of the church?  

No and no. I think that family comes first without exceptions

[Gray]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Then we should take it upon ourselves to rewrite the commandments of God to be more inclusive and pleasing. That should end well.

We're already very selective about that. We take a hard line on gays but ignore what Jesus said was adultery. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Gray

[stemelbow]

We're so small in the world, we're barely noticed.  For the most part, those that do take notice think we're a bunch of weirdos, exclusive and proud, probably harmless but not necessarily all that we pretend to be.  They're mostly right, I think.  No doubt we try, but we don't really know how to appeal to others.  We just push and push a message that barely resonates.  And our effectiveness is lessening in the world.  We're adapting too slowly and not realizing what it's going to take to really reach people.  But this is all on us.  We want to pretend that God is steering us, but I'm not so sure.  I mean we have something.  We're just too clouded with the extraneous critics are tearing at us with ease.  I think some simplifying and focusing would help, but it'd be a mess internally.  I dont' know that there are answers to fix us.  We are where we are. 

I'm not sure we have a lot to offer gay or straight.  I mean we probably could and should have tons, but we're a bit lost, it feels like to me.

[Mystery Meat]

24 minutes ago, Gray said:

The responses directed at California Boy very aptly demonstrate that we really have nothing to offer gay members or prospective members. We have a lot to offer for people who fit the mold, but we haven't figured out a way to include people who do not. 

The issue is that you and others like you think think that in order to have something to offer we have to redefine doctrines that come from God. That is a nonstarter.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

We're already very selective about that. We take a hard line on gays but ignore what Jesus said was adultery.

True.

But instead of adjusting in the correct direction to follow what Christ said about adultery, the progressive element wants us to move even further in the wrong direction by softening our stance on gay marriage too.
Further regression from revealed truth is not a better choice.

[Mystery Meat]

29 minutes ago, Gray said:

Sexual orientation is about way more than sex. 

Sexuality does not equal sex.

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, Gray said:

We're already very selective about that. We take a hard line on gays but ignore what Jesus said was adultery. 

I don't. If anyone else wants to go to hell for ignoring it that is their concern.

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

We're so small in the world, we're barely noticed.  For the most part, those that do take notice think we're a bunch of weirdos, exclusive and proud, probably harmless but not necessarily all that we pretend to be.  They're mostly right, I think.  No doubt we try, but we don't really know how to appeal to others.  We just push and push a message that barely resonates.  And our effectiveness is lessening in the world.  We're adapting too slowly and not realizing what it's going to take to really reach people.  But this is all on us.  We want to pretend that God is steering us, but I'm not so sure.  I mean we have something.  We're just too clouded with the extraneous critics are tearing at us with ease.  I think some simplifying and focusing would help, but it'd be a mess internally.  I dont' know that there are answers to fix us.  We are where we are. 

I'm not sure we have a lot to offer gay or straight.  I mean we probably could and should have tons, but we're a bit lost, it feels like to me.

As someone who spent last Sunday bathing in the power of God while helping a less-active get their ducks in a row on the path to the temple I disrespectfully disagree. We can offer everything.

[BlueDreams]

18 hours ago, california boy said:

With all due respect to Mystery Meat, I think he asked the wrong question.  Of course we know the answer the the question about gay members that most TBM will give.  "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it" or some variation of that.

If you want to have a real discussion about how much church membership is worth to you, Let's change the question.  Are you willing to give up your wife to be a member of the church?  Are you willing to give up your children to be a member of the church?  Now think about the implications, knowing that every night of the rest of your life you will be coming home to an empty apartment.  Think about not having your kids around for Christmas, and other holidays or a single day of your life.  Think about the real possibility of spending those holidays alone, in your room.  Think about not ever even dating anyone.  Think about NEVER even hoping that at some point you may find an eternal companion on earth and live the life that every fiber in your soul tells you that you want to live.

Now to quote Mystery Meat

Except the very core of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is taken from you.  Does church membership still appeal to you when you can not participate in the very core of what that church centers on?  Are you willing to go sunday after sunday and hear messages of being with a family you can not have for eternity?  If the core of the church is not available to you, then what is left?  A hollow shell.

But wait there is more.  After you die.  After you have experienced this wonderful life of loneliness with no wife or kids you are instead promised to NEVER have that wife and family that you now so dearly love.  Yes, that is right.  You are guaranteed that you will never be with your family that you gave up to be a member of the church.  Instead, there is some hint that you MAY be able to marry someone of the same sex as you.  Yeah that sounds thrilling doesn't it.  But wait, there is also some hint that you MAY actually desire someone of the same sex as you.  I know that the whole time you were on earth, that never was something that worked.  But hey, it is POSSIBLE that you will be magically changed into someone you were not during your entire life on earth.  Does membership in the church still appeal to you?  Now lets have a real discussion.  Who is signing up and WHY do you want to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

I haven't answer MysteryMeats thread, because I feel it's somewhat flat in depiction and I disagree about marriage as central...Christ/God is (and marriage is apart of that). And I haven't answered this one for about the same reason. Plus, I'm not married and have no kids....so....it feels a little disingenuous to say I would give up something I don't have. I would like to believe that I would. I've lived a week where I purposely went against God's will (I'm sure I've done more against His will than that....that was just the one week He told me to do something and I remembered telling him "I'm pulling a Jonah" and went about doing the opposite). I was miserable in a way that went beyond the heartache I'd felt to the very recent break-up I'd experienced that summer to someone I truly loved and had hopes for marriage and children with. So I made it a week before I humbled myself and accepted His will for me. Just as you decided to not live in misery and wanted a more complete relationship, I wanted my sense of completion/wholeness.

 For me, God is my completion. And though I'm not completely great at it or anything, I am learning to follow Him even when, in the moment, it hurts. I feel I'm getting better at it. Currently that path has led me to a prolonged delay of what I desire most on earth: marriage/children. He gave me a glimpse of it and then left me temporally desolate...me, who adores kids and dreamt of family. He's also left me with peace and support and with a firmer understanding and hope in His promise that I won't be ashamed if I'm one who waits upon Him. Which also means the other part...the bleak future and isolated/lonely present you create a picture of is also something I assume I wouldn't see in the hypothetical. Delay and uncertainty now hasn't caused me to assume the worst of my present because I have God (and family and friends). It hasn't desolated my view of the future because I trust His path has an individualistic promise for me within the all encompassing sorts of promises. The ones I've known who have made that decision you've mentioned in some way or fashion seem to have similar experiences in the end. 

So in short, I would do anything the Lord asks....including what you mentioned. I would do so because I trust Him, and what I have experienced of all Deity (Mother, Father, Son, the HG) tells that my ultimate peace and rest comes through Them. So I would assume if I was asked to make so great a sacrifice it would be for my inevitable wholeness and I would find more of Them through it. I'm a member of the CoJCoLDS for similar reasons. I find truth in it and work here that is part of that search for wholeness. 

 

With luv,

BD

[smac97]

17 hours ago, california boy said:

So are you willing to state that YOU would give up your wife and children and the promise to be with them for eternity in order to be a member of the church?  Because that is what is being asked here.

I do not understand the basis of this question.

First, I do not see how persons in your circumstance have been asked to "give up" their children "in order to be a member of the church."  Can you explain your reasoning here?

Second, I sort of see where you are coming from in terms of there being an "either/or" conundrum for people in a same-sex marriage.  That is, they are obligated to choose either one (same-sex marriage) or the other (membership in the Church).  But this is not unique to such persons.  People in polygamous relationships also face an either/or conundrum.  On my mission in Taiwan I encountered many people who had varying degrees of estrangement with family owing to their decision to join the Church.  In a very real sense, they too faced this conundrum.  And yet we still have the plain truth found in Matthew 10:37: "He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."  Note that this applies to all of us, including those in heterosexual relationships.  n short, CB, I am not seeing you and yours being put into a circumstance that is materially different from many other people in many other circumstances.  So your attempt at "special pleading" doesn't seem to work.

Third, consider D&C 98:9-15:

Quote

 9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.

 10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

 11 And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall forsake all evil and cleave unto all good, that ye shall live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God.

 12 For he will give unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept; and I will try you and prove you herewith.

 13 And whoso layeth down his life in my cause, for my name’s sake, shall find it again, even life eternal.

 14 Therefore, be not afraid of your enemies, for I have decreed in my heart, saith the Lord, that I will prove you in all things, whether you will abide in my covenant, even unto death, that you may be found worthy.

 15 For if ye will not abide in my covenant ye are not worthy of me.

In the LDS paradigm, abiding in our covenant with God trumps all other considerations.  Yes, even more than familial relationships (see Matthew 10:37).  Yes, even more than our lives.

Do you dispute any of this?  If so, I'd like to understand the nature of that dispute.  If you do not dispute these things, then your thread and its presuppositions (about there being things more valuable than remaining in a covenant relationship with God) do not seem to make much sense.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

18 hours ago, california boy said:

NO  On this earth life, no matter how much you repent and conform, you would not be allowed to have a family here on earth.  That is what you are asked to give up.  Are you willing to do THAT for membership in the church?

Yes.  I know many, many members of the Church who are unmarried and who are therefore not "allowed" to procreate and have children.  That is what they are asked to give up.  And as tremendously difficult as that is, many have done so.  

Again, you seem to be attempting to place people with same-sex attraction in some sort of exclusive box where they and only they face challenges in living the Restored Gospel.  I don't think that is accurate.  Or helpful.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Gray]

50 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don't. If anyone else wants to go to hell for ignoring it that is their concern.

I guess that would consign some early church leaders to hell? 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

The issue is that you and others like you think think that in order to have something to offer we have to redefine doctrines that come from God. That is a nonstarter.

All it would require is a small reinterpretation of a few passages that are already being taken out of context. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

True.

But instead of adjusting in the correct direction to follow what Christ said about adultery, the progressive element wants us to move even further in the wrong direction by softening our stance on gay marriage too.
Further regression from revealed truth is not a better choice.

We've rightly ignored that teaching because it just doesn't take into account the messiness of real life. And if we took it at face value, early leaders of the church would be considered guilty of adultery. 

We find it easier to make exceptions for straight people than for gay people, even when the scriptures are clear on condemning something straight people do and not so clear on gay marriage. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Gray

[Mystery Meat]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

All it would require is a small reinterpretation of a few passages that are already being taken out of context. 

And ignoring modern day revelation and inspiration.

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, Gray said:

We've rightly ignored that teaching because it just doesn't take into account the messiness of real life.

We've rightly ignored a teaching of our Savior. 

[Mystery Meat]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We've rightly ignored a teaching of our Savior. 

I have never got the impression that Gray believes in the scriptures or their validity.

[The Nehor]

24 minutes ago, Gray said:

I guess that would consign some early church leaders to hell? 

Don't know. Maybe God approved in those particular cases. God's call. If he wants me to have an exception to a church rule he can tell me. He has in the past and he knows where I am.

[T-Shirt]

10 hours ago, california boy said:

 I put living a full and happy life with someone I care about and deeply love rather than membership in the church.  

You chose to break up your former family to seek fulfillment with another person.  Your desire to be with someone else was more important to you than your children.  It would be the same if a heterosexual man left his wife for another woman.

Quote

I made that choice for ALL THE SAME REASONS you made the choice to find a companion to share this life with

Except that you left a family behind in order to do this.  If I left my wife and children for another woman, then our situations would be similar.  If a man leaves his wife and children for another woman, he has acted selfishly and has broken his covenants.

Quote

Would you be willing to give up your life with your wife and family on this earth as well as your children

I honestly don't understand why you keep saying this.  For you to be a member of the Church, you would not have to give up your family and your children.  If your family and children were the most important thing to you, then you could have chosen to place them before yourself and remained with them in the first place.  I understand this would have been difficult, but you seem to feel like you are the victim in all of this, but there is a woman and some children out there that have to forever deal with the pain of your choices.   The Church has done nothing to take away your children and has no desire to do so. 

  

[smac97]

18 hours ago, california boy said:

Those members that are gay are asked to give up the chance of having any family here on earth.  Give up the chance of having children on earth.  Those gay members that have married and have children are asked to break up those families or loose their membership in the church.  That family!

Furthermore, those gay families are promised that they will NEVER be with that family for all eternity.

First, let's be a bit more circumspect.  We are speaking of LDS doctrines and beliefs, and policies predicated on those doctrines and beliefs.  Much of the histrionics in this thread so far seems to of the "kick{ing} against the pricks" and the "hard things" variety.

Second, as soon as we speak of the promises of the Restored Gospel in a scriptural context, this discussion becomes moot.  That context necessarily requires consideration of D&C 132:7:

Quote

And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations,oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

And verse 13:

Quote

 13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by thrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall not remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.

And verses 15-16:

Quote

 15 Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

 16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

These are declarations of eternal laws and principles.  The things of this world are of finite duration.  That is simply the way of things.  The default condition.  So CB, it makes no sense for you to complain about the limited duration of a particular relationship in this life, just as it would make no sense to complain that our lives on this earth are of limited duration.

This is where the Good News comes in.  Although our lives are of limited duration, God has prepared a Plan that enables us to overcome death.  "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."  (1 Cor. 15:22).  The gift of the Resurrection is free unto all.  We are already promised that.  "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."  (Romans 5:18).  "Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous..." (D&C 11:44).  Likewise, a kingdom of glory has already been promised to virtually all of us, including all but the most utterly and irredeemably wicked (See D&C 76 regarding the kingdoms of glory, and these passages regarding Outer Darkness).

Now, in addition to these great and glorious promises, our Heavenly Father has also given us the means whereby we can enjoy a continuation of family relationships in the eternities.  However, this blessing is unlike the foregoing promises in that it is not ubiquitously granted, and is instead given only to those who desire it and take the steps which the Lord has imposed for obtaining it.  This blessing is conditioned on faith in and acceptance of Christ, on performance of saving ordinances, and of living righteously.  Throughout all of this there are governing principles, such as that "when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated," that we are required to discern and submit ourselves "unto the righteousness of God" rather than "going about to establish {our} own righteousness", and of limiting our words, thoughts and deeds to "the bounds the Lord has set."

I think those who seek to advocate for same-sex relationships within the Church have negligently or intentionally disregarded these principles.  I think Alma 33:2 is aptly cited here: "And Alma said unto them ... ye do greatly err, and ye ought to search the scriptures; if ye suppose that they have taught you this, ye do not understand them."

The promise regarding eternal families is encapsulated in D&C 132:19:

Quote

And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

I do not think this verse can be construed in a way to extend to same-sex couples.  I just don't see it, particularly given the guidance we have received in the form of the unified voice of the Lord's Presiding High Priest and his counselors, and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.  We are told over and over again the Scriptures to have "ears to hear" and to "hear" what the Lord is saying.  We are also cautioned against not listening, such as in 1 Nephi 15:3: "For he truly spake many great things unto them, which were hard to be understood, save a man should inquire of the Lord; and they being hard in their hearts, therefore they did not look unto the Lord as they ought."

I hope we all look to the Lord to discern the truth of these things.  Not to arguments on message boards.  Not to messages from the World.  But to the Lord.  "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."  (Moroni 10:5).

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited March 8, 2016 by smac97

[Storm Rider]

We each know who is going to say what on a given topic.  You have those who way, way out in left file and play the role of the troll.  They have no credibility and have nothing to contribute.

Then we have those who are going to negative at first, middle, and last.  There is not recognition of reality, but they have taken it upon themselves to shout repentance to everyone else except themselves.  The prophets, apostles, seventies, and every one else has fallen short of their perfection and all are damned and so the church should evolve to meet their personal standard of what is right.  

Then you have those that recognize their own weaknesses and believe that Jesus was the Christ and that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored church of Jesus Christ.  They neither excuse or accuse the prophets and apostles for their shortcomings.  

Then we have a very few that are focused solely on the beauty of the gospel and don't tolerate or admit any shortcomings of the Church.  

It takes all kinds and most of us are trying, however feebly, to follow the Savior.  It does not matter what kind of sins we have or where we fall down.  It is vital that we remain willing to follow, to get back up and try again to be a disciple of Jesus Christ; to have joy in our hearts that he lives and loves us; that he died for us and is committed to having us return to live with the Father again.  

[stemelbow]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

As someone who spent last Sunday bathing in the power of God while helping a less-active get their ducks in a row on the path to the temple I disrespectfully disagree. We can offer everything.

We only know in part, and thus only have part.  Getting back to the temple might be meaningful to some and it might not be.  Afterall plenty will find exaltation without having been to the temple in mortality.