Mystery Meat Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 10 minutes ago, california boy said: So I should have stayed in a marriage that I didn't really want to be in based on a lie told to me by church leaders for eternity? That is my punishment for believing that church leaders spoke for God? So it is your position that that leader(s) who told you to get married and the gayness would go away actively and actually knew that that would not happen? Remember this is the definition of the word lie: Quote an intentionally false statement.
Mystery Meat Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 9 minutes ago, california boy said: A lie is when someone tells you a promise that comes from God when it does NOT. A big lie is when telling something to someone effects the rest of their life based on that false promise. Neither of these are the actual definitions of the word lie. It appears to me you are intentionally trying to demonize your former church leaders and exaggerate your own victimhood. While I understand they were mistaken, they are not responsible for the choices you have made. 1
california boy Posted March 9, 2016 Author Posted March 9, 2016 13 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: Look CB, we are dealing with general principals here, I do not mean to make this about you specifically. I do have a lot of sympathy for you. You were given some pretty crappy advise by Church leaders. You call it a lie; I think lie requires intent to deceive and I see no evidence that they had any such intent. Was it a mistake to give it? Yes, no question. It was even irresponsible. Priesthood leaders are in fact fallible. But the ultimate responsibility for your choices is you. If you didn't think marriage was right for you, then you shouldn't have done it. You can't pass the buck onto anyone else. As someone who used to look at porn, I received a lot of crap counsel from local leaders and from the pulpit at General Conference. Had I followed much of it, I would likely still be looking at it today. But I considered their advice and applied what I thought was appropriate in accordance with the Spirit and set aside what I didn't. Had I followed their advice and still continued to struggle with pornography, that would have been my fault, not theirs. None of this bad counsel, mind you, in any way lessons the importance or genuineness of the Lord's counsel to avoid pornography like the plague. This faulty counsel, while bad, was coming from good, righteous men who had my best interests at heart. To call them liars would be petty and passing the buck. So while I can understand your trust issues, I do not think they are completely justified or well placed either. I am not your judge and have no desire to be. You have made choices that I think are contrary to the revealed mind and will of the Lord. You have that right. But I don't have to accept or approve of your actions or validate your reasons underlying them. There is never a good reason to violate the commandments of God. I really want to focus on this line you wrote because I think it is at the core of this discussion and is a very timely thought worth discussing. Quote If you didn't think marriage was right for you, then you shouldn't have done it. I knew I was gay from the time I was 12. I hated that I was not like all the other boys. I simply had no interest in girls. It came so easily to them. Why wasn't I like all my other friends. So in my mind, I thought that if I did everything God asked of me, if I worked hard enough, He would take this from me. I was the kid that was the deacons, teachers, and priests president. I was the only kid my age that went on a mission in my ward. I was one of two top baptizers in my mission. I was a zone leader before I was out even a year. I would do anything God asked me to do to not be gay. Not just do, but do it witht all my energy I could possible muster. I was blinded by faith in church leaders trusting that they knew the will of God. I was also not alone. You are right. This is not about me. This is also about the countless other gay members that were lied to by their church leaders. So yeah. I don't believe a single declared warm fuzzy feeling about anything told to church members that are gay. The church has no record of being correct on this subject in the past. NONE. That doesn't speak well for their current "policies". that are at this very minute effecting real lives who are now placing their faith in church leaders. My voice is a voice of warning to other gay members. Don't believe for one minute church leaders know the will of God on this subject. Trust God. I wish I had. 1
Mystery Meat Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, california boy said: I really want to focus on this line you wrote because I think it is at the core of this discussion and is a very timely thought worth discussing. I knew I was gay from the time I was 12. I hated that I was not like all the other boys. I simply had no interest in girls. It came so easily to them. Why wasn't I like all my other friends. So in my mind, I thought that if I did everything God asked of me, if I worked hard enough, He would take this from me. I was the kid that was the deacons, teachers, and priests president. I was the only kid my age that went on a mission in my ward. I was one of two top baptizers in my mission. I was a zone leader before I was out even a year. I would do anything God asked me to do to not be gay. Not just do, but do it witht all my energy I could possible muster. I was blinded by faith in church leaders trusting that they knew the will of God. I was also not alone. You are right. This is not about me. This is also about the countless other gay members that were lied to by their church leaders. So yeah. I don't believe a single declared warm fuzzy feeling about anything told to church members that are gay. The church has no record of being correct on this subject in the past. NONE. That doesn't speak well for their current "policies". that are at this very minute effecting real lives who are now placing their faith in church leaders. My voice is a voice of warning to other gay members. Don't believe for one minute church leaders know the will of God on this subject. Trust God. I wish I had. You keep calling them liars without any evidence that their was an intent to deceive. This tells me more about you than it does your Church leaders.
Mystery Meat Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 3 minutes ago, california boy said: I really want to focus on this line you wrote because I think it is at the core of this discussion and is a very timely thought worth discussing. I knew I was gay from the time I was 12. I hated that I was not like all the other boys. I simply had no interest in girls. It came so easily to them. Why wasn't I like all my other friends. So in my mind, I thought that if I did everything God asked of me, if I worked hard enough, He would take this from me. I was the kid that was the deacons, teachers, and priests president. I was the only kid my age that went on a mission in my ward. I was one of two top baptizers in my mission. I was a zone leader before I was out even a year. I would do anything God asked me to do to not be gay. Not just do, but do it witht all my energy I could possible muster. I was blinded by faith in church leaders trusting that they knew the will of God. I was also not alone. You are right. This is not about me. This is also about the countless other gay members that were lied to by their church leaders. So yeah. I don't believe a single declared warm fuzzy feeling about anything told to church members that are gay. The church has no record of being correct on this subject in the past. NONE. That doesn't speak well for their current "policies". that are at this very minute effecting real lives who are now placing their faith in church leaders. My voice is a voice of warning to other gay members. Don't believe for one minute church leaders know the will of God on this subject. Trust God. I wish I had. That is a YOU issue. "Of you it is required to forgive all men."
Storm Rider Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 28 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: CFR that a "terribly high percentage of of Catholic Priests have been child molesters". Either prove it or retract it; your choice. The percentage was Four Percent, Stemelbow. Retract the statement. Catholic Religious, the vast majority, honored their vows of celibacy. Retract the statement - it is rubbish and follows poor propaganda in a complex topic and LDS do not need to participate in passing these type of lies.
Storm Rider Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 18 minutes ago, smac97 said: He retracted it already. See here. Thanks, -Smac Thanks Smac, I missed it. It is not difficult to verify and there are several sources to support this - mine came from the Washington Post.
california boy Posted March 9, 2016 Author Posted March 9, 2016 15 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: This is easy. A man and a woman who get married and discover that one or both of them is sterile did not make a choice to be sterile (excepting, of course, couples who took preventative measures to eliminate the chance of pregnancy, in which case that is a choice and violation of divine commandment). A gay or lesbian couple who gets married, however made a choice to, in effect, be sterile. No two gay men or lesbian women will ever be able to conceive, procreate, multiply or replenish. Period. Putting a sterile couple in the same category as gay and lesbian couples would be like lumping a chain smoker with lung cancer in with someone who never smoked but still got lung cancer (10-20% of lung cancer deaths occur in people who never smoked). One made a choice that led directly to the disease, while the other simply had bad genetics. One abused a sacred gift from God and paid the price, one did not and still paid a price. One's choice was a sin, the other's was not. It is the same thing here. One actively chose not to multiply and replenish, the other did not. Even though neither of these couples will conceive, the man and woman maintained righteous desires. There are many who know they are sterile before they marry, just like a gay couple. Should the church forbid them from marrying based on them also not having children? Look. This is a position that is completely without any merrit unless the church starts testing for fertility before allowing the couple to marry. Or even forbidding any person from marrying who knows they can not have children. Gay couples do NOT activally choose to not multiply and replenish the earth. They don't activally choose to be gay. They deal with the had that is given to them, just like the other people who can not have children. Unless of course, you too want to lie to them and tell them they will not be gay if they just marry someone of the opposite sex.
Mystery Meat Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 1 minute ago, california boy said: There are many who know they are sterile before they marry, just like a gay couple. Should the church forbid them from marrying based on them also not having children? Look. This is a position that is completely without any merrit unless the church starts testing for fertility before allowing the couple to marry. Or even forbidding any person from marrying who knows they can not have children. Gay couples do NOT activally choose to not multiply and replenish the earth. They don't activally choose to be gay. They deal with the had that is given to them, just like the other people who can not have children. Unless of course, you too want to lie to them and tell them they will not be gay if they just marry someone of the opposite sex. CFR that your church leaders lied.
california boy Posted March 9, 2016 Author Posted March 9, 2016 21 minutes ago, USU78 said: You just lied, by that definition. A lie exists where the speaker of the lie knows what he is saying is false. Assuming arguendo that what you were promised did not come to pass or otherwise turned out not to be true, it is still not a lie unless the speaker knew what he said was not true. When, however, a sought-after blessing is not forthcoming, notwithstanding a promise that it would, we might well look at ourselves to determine the 'why not' of the situation. You falsely accuse another of lying, wholly without evidence, knowing you have no evidence. That, my friend, is a lie. The biggest lie that someone can tell anyone on this earth is that what they are telling you came from God. Those priesthood leaders did in fact know that God did not tell them that if a gay person marries, they will become straight. They based THAT lie on exactly the same things that their current lie about knowing God's will concerning gays. You think I am wrong? Tell me the difference between the lie they told me and the lie they are now claiming came from God. 1
california boy Posted March 9, 2016 Author Posted March 9, 2016 24 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: So it is your position that that leader(s) who told you to get married and the gayness would go away actively and actually knew that that would not happen? Remember this is the definition of the word lie: The lie was in telling me that they knew that God would make me straight if I got married. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Gray said: Immediately after learning of the policy, I felt a dark feeling. Most members of the church attribute such experiences as a warning from the spirit against something that is wrong. I would venture the suggestion that the dark feeling may have been a warning about the potential destructiveness of your own extant rebellious attitude.
ttribe Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, california boy said: The lie was in telling me that they knew that God would make me straight if I got married. If I may, I get why you are angry and hurt and that you feel lied to. Those are all very normal reactions to feelings of betrayal. However, I don't believe your leaders can be truly classified as "liars" in the sense that they "knew" what they were saying was wrong and said it anyway. They may have genuinely believed what they were saying and just been horribly wrong. MM's lack of compassion and tact is only exacerbating your feelings of anger and hurt; plus his focus on the words "lie" and "liars" is really just a diversion from the bigger picture. My unsolicited advice (as a lurker) - If you really want to discuss the weightier matters on this issue, I'd concede that "lie" isn't the best descriptor and move on. MM's just going to beat you over the head with the word in the meantime. 1
california boy Posted March 9, 2016 Author Posted March 9, 2016 15 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: You keep calling them liars without any evidence that their was an intent to deceive. This tells me more about you than it does your Church leaders. 7 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: CFR that your church leaders lied. Church leaders promised me that God would make me straight if I got married. They said this claiming that the Spirit was guiding them. The church now disavows that marriage to the opposite sex does NOT make you straight. Either the church leaders lied. The Spirit never told them that. Or the Spirit lied to the church leaders. Which one is it? I am banking on the church leaders OK CFR that church leaders are NOT lying now when they say they know the will of God concerning gay members. 1
california boy Posted March 9, 2016 Author Posted March 9, 2016 23 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: That is a YOU issue. "Of you it is required to forgive all men." Who said I didn't forgive them?
USU78 Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 11 minutes ago, california boy said: The biggest lie that someone can tell anyone on this earth is that what they are telling you came from God. Those priesthood leaders did in fact know that God did not tell them that if a gay person marries, they will become straight. They based THAT lie on exactly the same things that their current lie about knowing God's will concerning gays. You think I am wrong? Tell me the difference between the lie they told me and the lie they are now claiming came from God. You are using a specialized version of the word "lie" that does not communicate meaning. Moreover, you know it does not communicate meaning, but you don't seem to care. What's up with that? Finally, every time you accuse another of lying, using your arcane definition of the word, you lie unless you somehow can climb into the minds and hearts of those you are accusing, which you can't. Either stop using the word, or provide proof of the lie. 1
Mystery Meat Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 12 minutes ago, california boy said: The lie was in telling me that they knew that God would make me straight if I got married. That is not a lie if they believed that they knew that God would make you straight.
california boy Posted March 9, 2016 Author Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, ttribe said: If I may, I get why you are angry and hurt and that you feel lied to. Those are all very normal reactions to feelings of betrayal. However, I don't believe your leaders can be truly classified as "liars" in the sense that they "knew" what they were saying was wrong and said it anyway. They may have genuinely believed what they were saying and just been horribly wrong. MM's lack of compassion and tact is only exacerbating your feelings of anger and hurt; plus his focus on the words "lie" and "liars" is really just a diversion from the bigger picture. My unsolicited advice (as a lurker) - If you really want to discuss the weightier matters on this issue, I'd concede that "lie" isn't the best descriptor and move on. MM's just going to beat you over the head with the word in the meantime. Do you like deception better? I might add, that I am not angry about this. I have long ago moved on. But that doesn't mean I am going to pretend it never happened. Edited March 9, 2016 by california boy 1
ttribe Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 1 minute ago, california boy said: Do you like deception better? It's not my issue, CB. It was just a suggestion to keep from getting caught up in this causality loop with MM. BTW, IMO the word "deception" implies ill intent as well. You are going to continue to get badgered over this until one of two things happen: 1) you give up and walk away (in which case they'll just claim victory); or 2) you acknowledge that you can't judge your leaders' intent having not been inside their respective brains at the time of their advice. I suggest the latter. But, like I said, my advice is unsolicited, I'm just a lurker and I have no dog in this fight. 1
Mystery Meat Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 6 minutes ago, ttribe said: If I may, I get why you are angry and hurt and that you feel lied to. Those are all very normal reactions to feelings of betrayal. However, I don't believe your leaders can be truly classified as "liars" in the sense that they "knew" what they were saying was wrong and said it anyway. They may have genuinely believed what they were saying and just been horribly wrong. MM's lack of compassion and tact is only exacerbating your feelings of anger and hurt; plus his focus on the words "lie" and "liars" is really just a diversion from the bigger picture. My unsolicited advice (as a lurker) - If you really want to discuss the weightier matters on this issue, I'd concede that "lie" isn't the best descriptor and move on. MM's just going to beat you over the head with the word in the meantime. I flatout reject that I do not have compassion for those who attracted to those of the same sex. I have acknowledged in this very threat that CB was put in a pretty crappy situation. Nor do I pretend to judge him or others like him for hard choices. I find that it is important to defend true principals. On this board do so apparently means you lack compassion. Gay men and lesbian woman have violated God's commandments when they marry or otherwise participate in sexual activity one with another. The recent handbook update came from God by revelation. Gay men and lesbian women deserve our love and support as they struggle to find their way and place in the church. If I am seem harsh or unduly severe it is not because I lack compassion, it is because I am frustrated by those who want to paint the Church and the Lord's anointed as anything less than what they are. 1
USU78 Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 5 minutes ago, california boy said: I have long ago moved on. Your long-term presence here and your evangelizing hereabouts on your pet topic would appear to belie that assertion. 2
ttribe Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 4 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: I flatout reject that I do not have compassion for those who attracted to those of the same sex. I have acknowledged in this very threat that CB was put in a pretty crappy situation. Nor do I pretend to judge him or others like him for hard choices. I find that it is important to defend true principals. On this board do so apparently means you lack compassion. Gay men and lesbian woman have violated God's commandments when they marry or otherwise participate in sexual activity one with another. The recent handbook update came from God by revelation. Gay men and lesbian women deserve our love and support as they struggle to find their way and place in the church. If I am seem harsh or unduly severe it is not because I lack compassion, it is because I am frustrated by those who want to paint the Church and the Lord's anointed as anything less than what they are. Okay. Whatever you say. From my little corner of the Internet, it looks a lot like a lack of compassion (and tact...you forgot to get upset about me on that one). If you don't agree with me, and think there's no value in my opinion or observation, there's really no reason to respond.
Mystery Meat Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 9 minutes ago, california boy said: Church leaders promised me that God would make me straight if I got married. They said this claiming that the Spirit was guiding them. The church now disavows that marriage to the opposite sex does NOT make you straight. Either the church leaders lied. The Spirit never told them that. Or the Spirit lied to the church leaders. Which one is it? I am banking on the church leaders OK CFR that church leaders are NOT lying now when they say they know the will of God concerning gay members. Clever. You have not provided all of the options, I will add one more: A. Church leaders lied. B. Spirit lied to church leaders. C. Church leaders mistook emotion for the Spirit. I think C is the most likely. Unless you have evidence to rebut C, I think it is the most charitable and Christian assumption to make. My CFR was to rebut your repeated accusation that these leaders were lying. I wanted evidence to show that you knew they were intentionally trying to deceive. You have still not provided it. You asking for a CFR for me on whether or not Church leaders are lying doesn't follow. I cannot provide anything that shows they are not lying as that gets to their intent. I can only rely on their own words (well that and the confirmation of the Spirit). You, on the other hand, have labeled men as liars without providing any evidence of their intent to deceive you. I would be shocked if you could provide some. Option C above is clearly a misstatement. It is not, however, a lie. In law school we are taught that not all killing acts equate to murder. In order for their to be murder there has to be an intentional killing act (shooting someone in the head, for example). This is different from someone who accidentally hits and kills a pedestrian in a cross walk. At most, this would be manslaughter as the killing was unintentional. Just as not all killings are murder, not all misstatements are lies. I say again, the fact that you chose to not even list C as an option tells me more about you than it will ever tell me about your leaders (no matter how misguided their statements were). 1
Mystery Meat Posted March 9, 2016 Posted March 9, 2016 18 minutes ago, california boy said: Who said I didn't forgive them? The way in which you have discussed them and laying blame on them for your actions are not the behaviors one would normally associate with forgiveness.
california boy Posted March 9, 2016 Author Posted March 9, 2016 19 minutes ago, USU78 said: You are using a specialized version of the word "lie" that does not communicate meaning. Moreover, you know it does not communicate meaning, but you don't seem to care. What's up with that? Finally, every time you accuse another of lying, using your arcane definition of the word, you lie unless you somehow can climb into the minds and hearts of those you are accusing, which you can't. Either stop using the word, or provide proof of the lie. 17 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: That is not a lie if they believed that they knew that God would make you straight. If they had just said, it was their opinion that if I got married then I would become straight then yes. They are stating their belief which later proved wrong. When they tell me that it was God making that promise, then it became a lie. Because God in fact had not told them that. Or there is one more possibility. When church leaders tell us that something is the will of God based on the Spirit, then that MAY or MAY NOT be true. There is no reason to trust such statements. It is just the belief of men and may or may not be the will of God at all.
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