Why would any straight person want to be a member of the COJCOLDS?

[california boy]

49 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

You chose to break up your former family to seek fulfillment with another person.  Your desire to be with someone else was more important to you than your children.  It would be the same if a heterosexual man left his wife for another woman.

Except that you left a family behind in order to do this.  If I left my wife and children for another woman, then our situations would be similar.  If a man leaves his wife and children for another woman, he has acted selfishly and has broken his covenants.

I honestly don't understand why you keep saying this.  For you to be a member of the Church, you would not have to give up your family and your children.  If your family and children were the most important thing to you, then you could have chosen to place them before yourself and remained with them in the first place.  I understand this would have been difficult, but you seem to feel like you are the victim in all of this, but there is a woman and some children out there that have to forever deal with the pain of your choices.   The Church has done nothing to take away your children and has no desire to do so. 

  

I don't have time to answer all of the comments right now, I will get back to them.  But I would like to address your self righteous judgement of someone you know nothing about.  That would be me.

First of all, I was promised by my church leaders that if I got married, then these feelings and attractions I have for men would go away.  That was a complete LIE.  I trusted them.  I thought they were speaking for God.  If they had not made that promise to me I would have not married.  Shame on them.  I wlll never forgive them for that false lie.  Since then the church has backed down on that position.  A little too late for ME.  It really makes it difficult for me to trust ANY church leader when they tell me they know the will of God on what gay people should or should not do.

Second.  When I realized that I had been told a lie, I still stayed in that marriage.  I felt that I had made a commitment to my children to raise them and be a good father to them.  I didn't want to be a weekend dad.  So I did stay in the marriage until all of my children were gone from the house or in college.  I am still their father.  

And Third.  It was my wife that asked for a divorce.  She knew that I needed something that she would never be able to do.  She is a very kind and sweet person.  We are still great friends.  The promise that was given to me by church leaders also effected her life as well.  Another life screwed up by following church leaders. But this whole mess lays at the feet of the CHURCH.  I am just collateral damage from past "policies."  And shame on you for judging me for something you know nothing about.  There is a heck of a good reason why Christ taught very clearly that it is not your role to judge others.  

This thread is not about me.  You and a few others have made it about me.  When I talk of gay members giving up their families, I am talking about those who will never experience the joys of having children, being a father and instead being celibate their entire life.  That is so sad for me.  Maybe because I know many gay couples that have wonderful families and are not the evil sinful apostates the church makes them out to be.  

 

[Mystery Meat]

19 minutes ago, california boy said:

First of all, I was promised by my church leaders that if I got married, then these feelings and attractions I have for men would go away.  That was a complete LIE.  I trusted them.  I thought they were speaking for God.

 

Is that really fair? Do you really think they were lying? Clearly mistaken, but lying? Come on...

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

And ignoring modern day revelation and inspiration.

The church has not claimed any revelation on this topic.  

[Mystery Meat]

Just now, Gray said:

The church has not claimed any revelation on this topic.  

There has been revelation on this topic in both of our lifetimes.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

We've rightly ignored a teaching of our Savior. 

Well, let's be clear, there's no way to know whether or not Jesus taught it. But it has to be said that not every teaching attributed to Jesus works well when interpreted literally. That's why scripture can't be about authority - it must be about the content of the teachings. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

I have never got the impression that Gray believes in the scriptures or their validity.

I'm not a fundamentalist, if that's what you mean. 

[Gray]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Don't know. Maybe God approved in those particular cases. God's call. If he wants me to have an exception to a church rule he can tell me. He has in the past and he knows where I am.

And  for gay couples who have felt inspired that God has blessed their union?

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

There has been revelation on this topic in both of our lifetimes.

There has been no official word on that. Anecdotally we've been told that the senior leadership felt good about the newest policy and so ratified it. But all of it is based on a supposition that the ideas about homosexuality that we've inherited from other Christian groups are true. It certainly doesn't feel like a revelation to me. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Gray

[Robert F. Smith]

15 hours ago, california boy said:

Well most gays live wonderful and very fulfilled lives.  Just not in the church.  I know it is difficult for many in the church to understand that choice.

I have always heard from the LGBT community that it is not a choice.  Is it a choice, or not?

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, Gray said:

There has been no official word on that. Anecdotally we've been told that the senior leadership felt good about the newest policy and so ratified it. But all of it is based on a supposition that the traditionally ideas about homosexuality that we've inherited from other Christian groups are true. It certainly doesn't feel like a revelation to me. 

if you're talking about the statement by President Russell M. Nelson, president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, you are being very misleading in how you characterize it. He was a participant in that revelatory process, and he said so. He spoke of it in some detail, in fact.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I have always heard from the LGBT community that it is not a choice.  Is it a choice, or not?

I think he's talking about the choice of whether to remain in the Church of Jesus Christ or to look for fulfillment elsewhere.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Ahab]

20 hours ago, california boy said:

Those members that are gay are asked to give up the chance of having any family here on earth.

No, not give up any family.  Just that perverted version of a gay family that involves having a spouse of the same sex. And yes I would give up that perverted version of a family for the kind of family God wanted me to have instead. 

Give up the chance of having children on earth.  

Stop being so melodramatic.  You're not being asked to give up any children you can have on earth, not even any you can adopt.

Those gay members that have married and have children are asked to break up those families or loose their membership in the church.  That family!

You're onl being asked to give up any same sex "spouse" you have or can have. And yes I would give that up if I had one along with any chance of ever having one of those AS A SPOUSE.  I would still love that person and keep him as a friend,  though, if he still wanted that kind of relationship with me.

Furthermore, those gay families are promised that they will NEVER be with that family for all eternity.

Right, and a good riddance. 

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Mystery Meat said:

Is that really fair? Do you really think they were lying? Clearly mistaken, but lying? Come on...

A good lesson not to make promises unless you can personally fulfill them or God tells you to make it. I would be annoyed if my Priesthood Leaders made a promise like this without clearing it with God first.

[Mystery Meat]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

A good lesson not to make promises unless you can personally fulfill them or God tells you to make it. I would be annoyed if my Priesthood Leaders made a promise like this without clearing it with God first.

Very true.

[Bobbieaware]

7 hours ago, webbles said:

The quote said "I never said it would be easy".  But in fact, Christ did say it would be easy.

 28 ¶Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Matthew 11: 28-30)

 

So, sure, there will be sufferings and tribulations and difficulties (Christ also spoke of them).  And the end result will be glorious (also spoken by Christ).  But if we take his yoke, He has promised that His yoke will be easy and His burden will be light.  So, the quote (at least the first part) is completely false.  He definitely said that it would be easy.

He said his yoke is easy and the burden he requires us to carry is light, but that doesn't tell the whole story. For instance, while a beast of burden may have a comfortable yoke placed around its neck and shoulders, and the wagon the beast is called upon to pull may be holding only a light load, that doesn't mean the beast may not also be called upon to pull that load over all sorts of horrifically dangerous terrains and treacherous waterways, through all kinds of unmercifully miserable and life-threatening weather conditions, or being required to slog over seemingly endless miles with a fearful undersupply of life-sustaining feed and water. 

Even though he retained a remission of sins and enjoyed a great and continual outpouring of the gift of the Holy Ghost, what items on the following list of his sufferings for Christ would the apostle Paul have found easy to endure?

 22 Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

 23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

 24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

 25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

 26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

 27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

 28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. (2 Corinthians 11)

Edited March 8, 2016 by Bobbieaware
Spelling

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

Is that really fair? Do you really think they were lying? Clearly mistaken, but lying? Come on...

YES IT IS REALLY FAIR.  They absolutely lied to me. A mistake is not calling someone by the right name or forgetting to attend a meeting.  Telling someone what God's will is and the promise that goes with it IS A LIE.  Sometimes I think that church leaders just don't get it.  They make promises and tell members what God's will is without knowing a darn thing about His will. They didn't say "I think you should get married"  They didn't say "Well try marriage, it might work"  They made me a promise in the name of God!!!  Just like they are doing today.  For the next 25 years I lived in a sham marriage.  Why?  Simply because I trusted the church leaders.  I trusted the promise made to me.  And what do I get from those years of sacrifice and putting my children in front of my own wants and desires?  Insults from members like T-shirt, accusing me of being selfish.  He has no idea the sacrifice I have made because I trusted church leaders.  

Look.  I have always said that the church can teach whatever it wants about gay marriage.  But when they start promising things that the actually know nothing about, it damages lives.  People put their trust in them.  Quite frankly I don't believe for one moment the current drivel given by church leaders.  "If you only live a celibate life, never having companionship, never the happiness of a family, then God will shower you with eternal blessings."  And what are those blessings?  The exact same promise given to me.  If you will just do God's will, he will make you straight.   They have no right making this promise any more than they did when they made the false promise to me. They don't know.  

Fool me once, shame on them.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  

[consiglieri]

3 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

Is that really fair? Do you really think they were lying? Clearly mistaken, but lying? Come on...

I hear what you are saying, Mystery Meat, but I am no fan of the penchant Mormon leaders have for promising things over which they have no control.

But at its heart, if a leader promises something that doesn't occur, then that is a lie.

The formula is standard.

"If you [insert commandment], I promise you that [insert blessing]."

This way of promising blessings in exchange for obedience is manipulative.

The first manipulation is to get the person to do what you want.  Why?  So they can receive the promised blessing.

Then if the promised blessing doesn't materialize, the problem isn't with the one who promised, it is with the person who just wasn't obedient enough.

I think calling these types of unfulfilled promises a lie may be too charitable.

[Storm Rider]

The blessing is not to make anyone straight or gay, but the blessing is to become one with God the Father and his Son.  You have created false arguments and false premises in order to make the argument facile in order to "win" or to be comforted by your own choices.  

No one is an island and yet many live their entire mortal existence without a spouse or mate.  Are you so much greater and important than those who have sacrificed for God?  No, you know you are not.  What you are is someone who has reviewed the choices and Jesus Christ came out second.  You chose your own path to meet your own wants and desires.  

You are not unique and your choice is similar to each of us who continues to sin.  You may pass beyond discipleship while some of us is try to follow after our Master, but your choices were similar to many others who chose differently and rejoice in their choice.  

[california boy]

 

  2

Quote

 

I haven't answer MysteryMeats thread, because I feel it's somewhat flat in depiction and I disagree about marriage as central...Christ/God is (and marriage is apart of that). And I haven't answered this one for about the same reason. Plus, I'm not married and have no kids....so....it feels a little disingenuous to say I would give up something I don't have. I would like to believe that I would. I've lived a week where I purposely went against God's will (I'm sure I've done more against His will than that....that was just the one week He told me to do something and I remembered telling him "I'm pulling a Jonah" and went about doing the opposite). I was miserable in a way that went beyond the heartache I'd felt to the very recent break-up I'd experienced that summer to someone I truly loved and had hopes for marriage and children with. So I made it a week before I humbled myself and accepted His will for me. Just as you decided to not live in misery and wanted a more complete relationship, I wanted my sense of completion/wholeness.

 For me, God is my completion. And though I'm not completely great at it or anything, I am learning to follow Him even when, in the moment, it hurts. I feel I'm getting better at it. Currently that path has led me to a prolonged delay of what I desire most on earth: marriage/children. He gave me a glimpse of it and then left me temporally desolate...me, who adores kids and dreamt of family. He's also left me with peace and support and with a firmer understanding and hope in His promise that I won't be ashamed if I'm one who waits upon Him. Which also means the other part...the bleak future and isolated/lonely present you create a picture of is also something I assume I wouldn't see in the hypothetical. Delay and uncertainty now hasn't caused me to assume the worst of my present because I have God (and family and friends). It hasn't desolated my view of the future because I trust His path has an individualistic promise for me within the all encompassing sorts of promises. The ones I've known who have made that decision you've mentioned in some way or fashion seem to have similar experiences in the end. 

So in short, I would do anything the Lord asks....including what you mentioned. I would do so because I trust Him, and what I have experienced of all Deity (Mother, Father, Son, the HG) tells that my ultimate peace and rest comes through Them. So I would assume if I was asked to make so great a sacrifice it would be for my inevitable wholeness and I would find more of Them through it. I'm a member of the CoJCoLDS for similar reasons. I find truth in it and work here that is part of that search for wholeness. 

 

With luv,

BD
 

 

Very nice post.  I think more of us should center our lives and faith around Christ and not church leaders.Your experience with church leaders is not the same as mine.  When I trust God, there is peace in my life. When I have trusted that the church leaders speak for God, I have not found peace.  I tried to match the two up for many years and was unable to.  I also know full well that the church is a source of good and hope for many people.  I encourage all that find peace there to attend.  I am glad the church works for you.  Me, not so much.

[consiglieri]

12 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

 You are not unique and your choice is similar to each of us who continues to sin.  You may pass beyond discipleship while some of us is try to follow after our Master, but your choices were similar to many others who chose differently and rejoice in their choice.  

California Boy has slipped the surly bonds of Bednar dogma.

Jealous much?

[california boy]

 

Quote

 

The blessing is not to make anyone straight or gay, but the blessing is to become one with God the Father and his Son.  You have created false arguments and false premises in order to make the argument facile in order to "win" or to be comforted by your own choices.  

No one is an island and yet many live their entire mortal existence without a spouse or mate.  Are you so much greater and important than those who have sacrificed for God?  No, you know you are not.  What you are is someone who has reviewed the choices and Jesus Christ came out second.  You chose your own path to meet your own wants and desires.  

You are not unique and your choice is similar to each of us who continues to sin.  You may pass beyond discipleship while some of us is try to follow after our Master, but your choices were similar to many others who chose differently and rejoice in their choice.  

 

 

Well isn't that the current revelation going around for gay members?  If you are gay in this life, you will be magically straight in the next??  But this time we really mean it....

Do you believe you can have a relationship with God even though you are a sinner?  Does Jesus Christ come out second in your life?

I take great comfort in the scripture. "Wickedness never was happiness".  Sorry just not feeling that unhappy.

And I am so tired of this argument that "not all straight people have families either".  When the church starts teaching that straight couples must be celibate all their lives, then I will listen.  Let's just see what happens then.

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by california boy

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

23 hours ago, california boy said:

Those members that are gay are asked to give up the chance of having any family here on earth.

No, not give up any family.  Just that perverted version of a gay family that involves having a spouse of the same sex. And yes I would give up that perverted version of a family for the kind of family God wanted me to have instead. 

Give up the chance of having children on earth.  

Stop being so melodramatic.  You're not being asked to give up any children you can have on earth, not even any you can adopt.

Those gay members that have married and have children are asked to break up those families or loose their membership in the church.  That family!

You're onl being asked to give up any same sex "spouse" you have or can have. And yes I would give that up if I had one along with any chance of ever having one of those AS A SPOUSE.  I would still love that person and keep him as a friend,  though, if he still wanted that kind of relationship with me.

Furthermore, those gay families are promised that they will NEVER be with that family for all eternity.

Right, and a good riddance. 

 

 

Oh yeah right.  Let's put all the gays in sham marriages.  That worked out so well the first time we tried that.

 

[Ahab]

Yes it is a problem that SOME leaders/people in the Church think same sex attraction is a problem or a bad thing that should just go away.

And yes it is also a problem that SOME leaders/people in the Church make some statements based on their personal feelings indicating that God thinks like they do when he doesn't. 

Not that you should just automatically believe whatever they say as if they are speaking for God when they really are not, which you could have confirmed with God by asking him for yourself, but still, people should not be saying that God agrees with them when he really doesn't. I mean, really, that just makes it more difficult for the gullible to know who to believe. 

Personally,  I give you some credit for being able to see that at least some people of your very own sex are sexually attractive and worth wanting to spend some if not all of your life with.  If only you could also see that at least some people of the opposite sex are also sexually attractive and worth spending some if not all of your life with then, well, then you would at least have 2 different desirable options.

And then at that point you could just check with God for yourself to see who he would approve of as the best spouse for you.

I already know you're going to need a woman if you want to have all of the blessings of God that are available for you. Another man just can not give you all that a woman can give you. 

[california boy]

Quote

 

SMAC

These are declarations of eternal laws and principles.  The things of this world are of finite duration.  That is simply the way of things.  The default condition.  So CB, it makes no sense for you to complain about the limited duration of a particular relationship in this life, just as it would make no sense to complain that our lives on this earth are of limited duration.

This is where the Good News comes in.  Although our lives are of limited duration, God has prepared a Plan that enables us to overcome death.  "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."  (1 Cor. 15:22).  The gift of the Resurrection is free unto all.  We are already promised that.  "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."  (Romans 5:18).  "Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous..." (D&C 11:44).  Likewise, a kingdom of glory has already been promised to virtually all of us, including all but the most utterly and irredeemably wicked (See D&C 76 regarding the kingdoms of glory, and these passagesregarding Outer Darkness).

Now, in addition to these great and glorious promises, our Heavenly Father has also given us the means whereby we can enjoy a continuation of family relationships in the eternities.  However, this blessing is unlike the foregoing promises in that it is not ubiquitously granted, and is instead given only to those who desire it and take the steps which the Lord has imposed for obtaining it.  This blessing is conditioned on faith in and acceptance of Christ, on performance of saving ordinances, and of living righteously.  Throughout all of this there are governing principles, such as that "when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated," that we are required to discern and submit ourselves "unto the righteousness of God" rather than "going about to establish {our} own righteousness", and of limiting our words, thoughts and deeds to "the bounds the Lord has set."

I think those who seek to advocate for same-sex relationships within the Church have negligently or intentionally disregarded these principles.  I think Alma 33:2 is aptly cited here: "And Alma said unto them ... ye do greatly err, and ye ought to search the scriptures; if ye suppose that they have taught you this, ye do not understand them."

The promise regarding eternal families is encapsulated in D&C 132:19:

 

I actually would like to talk about this part of the "promise".  Sounds great if you are straight.  Just what is promised a gay person?  Tell me what God has revealed.  I am not talking about conjecture.  Give me the revelation or scripture where God lays out what is in store for His gay children.  

[california boy]

12 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yes it is a problem that SOME leaders/people in the Church think same sex attraction is a problem or a bad thing that should just go away.

And yes it is also a problem that SOME leaders/people in the Church make some statements based on their personal feelings indicating that God thinks like they do when he doesn't. 

Not that you should just automatically believe whatever they say as if they are speaking for God when they really are not, which you could have confirmed with God by asking him for yourself, but still, people should not be saying that God agrees with them when he really doesn't. I mean, really, that just makes it more difficult for the gullible to know who to believe. 

Personally,  I give you some credit for being able to see that at least some people of your very own sex are sexually attractive and worth wanting to spend some if not all of your life with.  If only you could also see that at least some people of the opposite sex are also sexually attractive and worth spending some if not all of your life with then, well, then you would at least have 2 different desirable options.

And then at that point you could just check with God for yourself to see who he would approve of as the best spouse for you.

I already know you're going to need a woman if you want to have all of the blessings of God that are available for you. Another man just can not give you all that a woman can give you. 

Ahab, you are talking like I haven't been down this road before.  At one time I would have  believed what you are saying because I wanted to believe it.  But seriously, I was in one of these kinds of marriages for over 25 years.  At what point do you realize that it was WRONG,  Should I have waited for 30 years?  Or 40 years?  It is not like I didn't give it a good honest try.  I had 25 YEARS to check with God.  I am not bisexual.  I am gay.  

I am glad your marriage works for you.  I am glad you are happy.  But what works for you does not necessarily work for everyone.  I am sure you can understand that.