What Book Is Everyone Reading Right Now?

[JLHPROF]

Just now, CA Steve said:

I really enjoyed that book also and wish the office of the Presiding Patriarch would get more attention both by the church itself and by members today becoming more aware of how important a position it was in the past. I was astounded to learn a few years back that Eldred G. Smith was still alive at that time and that he was the last holder of that office.

 

Can you tell me why you think the author E. Gary Smith, son of Eldred, had a major chip on his shoulder? I found the book to be quite balanced in my view.

The entire book bemoaned the removal of power, the lessening of authority, and the eventual ending of the office.
It wasn't just a history of the office, it was absolutely chock full of judgments and bias on the actions of Church leaders in doing these things.

It's hard not to think that the author felt like he lost his birthright.  Had the office remained, he could have been next.
Joseph Smith even stated that the rightful head of the Church was Hyrum, not himself, although Joseph was the presiding priesthood authority.
But the people wouldn't have it.

Oddly enough, I agree that the removal of the office was out of order (just one of many 20th century out of order actions I think will be corrected eventually).

[longview]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Also, lately, I have been reading the book of Ether again, but with great care.

Have you noticed the possibility of two sets of "Urim and Thummim" or interpreters?  Please see Ether 3:21-24, Ether 4:5 and Mosiah 8:13-19.  The search team sent by King Limhi to locate Zarahemla ended up getting lost northward in the land of Desolation but found the Jaredite record.  Did they also find the interpreters with the record?  But King Mosiah at that time already was using interpreters.  But D&C 17:1 seems to indicate only the one that was given to the brother of Jared and used by Joseph Smith?  How did King Mosiah (the Second) obtain the interpreters?

[strappinglad]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

(just one of many 20th century out of order actions).

Were you thinking about that story of J Golden Kimball and the river?

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Were you thinking about that story of J Golden Kimball and the river?

 - that's funny.
(But you've been here long enough to know which things I meant).

 

But enough derailing my own thread.  Back to the books.

[Avatar4321]

Started reading Men on a Mission which is about the mission of the Twelve to Great Britain. Its amazing how much success they had

Edited March 3, 2016 by Avatar4321

[VideoGameJunkie]

I was reading The Way Back to Heaven: The parable of the Crystal Stairs, but I found it boring.  Apparently I'm not a fan of parables and other member's dreams.

Edited March 3, 2016 by VideoGameJunkie

[Duncan]

Does anyone know of any books on the Priesthood? I have an old DB simply called that but it was printed like 30 years ago but anything more recent than that would be suitable

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, longview said:

Have you noticed the possibility of two sets of "Urim and Thummim" or interpreters?  Please see Ether 3:21-24, Ether 4:5 and Mosiah 8:13-19.  The search team sent by King Limhi to locate Zarahemla ended up getting lost northward in the land of Desolation but found the Jaredite record.  Did they also find the interpreters with the record?  But King Mosiah at that time already was using interpreters.  But D&C 17:1 seems to indicate only the one that was given to the brother of Jared and used by Joseph Smith?  How did King Mosiah (the Second) obtain the interpreters?

The Book of Mormon never mentions the Urim & Thummim, which are biblical stones used by the HP.  Nor did D&C 17:1 (or the heading) in its original form.  However, Ether 3 & 4, and D&C 17:1 make it clear that the "interpreters" made by God for the Bro of Jared are the same ones possessed by Mosiah I and II, Moroni, and Joseph Smith.  Mosiah I probably got them from the people of Zarahemla, who got them from Coriantumr -- I assume.

[Robert F. Smith]

DUPLICATE

Edited March 3, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The entire book bemoaned the removal of power, the lessening of authority, and the eventual ending of the office.
It wasn't just a history of the office, it was absolutely chock full of judgments and bias on the actions of Church leaders in doing these things.

It's hard not to think that the author felt like he lost his birthright.  Had the office remained, he could have been next.
Joseph Smith even stated that the rightful head of the Church was Hyrum, not himself, although Joseph was the presiding priesthood authority.
But the people wouldn't have it.

Oddly enough, I agree that the removal of the office was out of order (just one of many 20th century out of order actions I think will be corrected eventually).

The office outlasted the need for it. 

[Scott Lloyd]

In addition to the New Testament (personal reading) and the Book of Mormon (with the family) I'm reading The history of the Prophet Joseph Smith by His Mother, Lucy Mack Smith. Interesting to get her perspective and amazing what a strong and good woman she was. 

[longview]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The Book of Mormon never mentions the Urim & Thummim, which are biblical stones used by the HP.  Nor did D&C 17:1 (or the heading) in its original form.  However, Ether 3 & 4, and D&C 17:1 make it clear that the "interpreters" made by God for the Bro of Jared are the same ones possessed by Mosiah I and II, Moroni, and Joseph Smith.  Mosiah I probably got them from the people of Zarahemla, who got them from Coriantumr -- I assume.

Thank you for pointing out that Mosiah I did have possession.  Mosiah II did confer the records and the interpreters to Alma the Elder.

However I do not think the interpreters could casually be handed around.  Ether 3:23 the Lord commanded brother of Jared to seal up both the record and the interpreters.  In Joseph Smith History:  1:42 Again, he told me, that when I got those plates of which he had spoken—for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled—I should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I did I should be destroyed.

If those things were "sealed" the search party should have found both.  I am more inclined to believe there was only the one set of interpreters.  Is it possible that some earlier Nephite prophet/leader could have obtained them from the Lord?

[longview]

21 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

It's hard not to think that the author felt like he lost his birthright.  Had the office remained, he could have been next.
Joseph Smith even stated that the rightful head of the Church was Hyrum, not himself, although Joseph was the presiding priesthood authority.
But the people wouldn't have it.

What people would not have it?  Who are they?  Why?

Church membership was getting large enough, the Lord simply directed the leadership to delegate this function to the Stake level.  Can you imagine the Church Patriarch having to give Patriarchal Blessings to millions of members?  It is a question of logistics.

[Jeanne]

On 3/2/2016 at 2:37 AM, Tacenda said:

"Planted"

I am reading this right now too.  It is a good book for all levels of the LDS faith..and even me..I really commend the parts I have read so far that put great truth about what it is really like to become rattled about aspects of mormonism..how to act and react on both sides of the fence.  Though I may not agree with everything, I believe that Patrick Mason has hit many nails on its head..we need to understand each other without judgement. 

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, longview said:

What people would not have it?  Who are they?  Why?

When Joseph made the proposal that Hyrum be President of the Church (which was his right as Patriarch) and that Joseph would continue as priesthood head some protested because they didn't understand correct priesthood order like Joseph did.
 

Quote

"Last Monday morning, certain men came to me and said: 'Brother Joseph, Hyrum is no prophet-he can't lead the church-you must lead the church! If you resign all things will go wrong; and you must not resign; if you do the church will be scattered.'

I felt to make them curious and said-'have we not learned in the scriptures about a Priesthood in the Order of Melchizedek which includes the offices of Prophet, Priest, and King?' Gen 14:8,Psalms 110:4

I never said I was going to resign-I simply proclaimed that I had bequeathed to my brother Hyrum the prophetic power and authority that rightly belongs to the Patriarchal Office which he holds by his birthright. Hyrum now stands as head Prophet to the church. And I in turn when the Temple is completed will be advanced in the Priesthood from the office of a Prophet to that of Priest and then to the office of King-not to the kingdoms of this earth, but to the kingdom of the most high God"

 

[consiglieri]

21 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The entire book bemoaned the removal of power, the lessening of authority, and the eventual ending of the office.
It wasn't just a history of the office, it was absolutely chock full of judgments and bias on the actions of Church leaders in doing these things.

It's hard not to think that the author felt like he lost his birthright.  Had the office remained, he could have been next.
Joseph Smith even stated that the rightful head of the Church was Hyrum, not himself, although Joseph was the presiding priesthood authority.
But the people wouldn't have it.

Oddly enough, I agree that the removal of the office was out of order (just one of many 20th century out of order actions I think will be corrected eventually).

My view is that the removal of the Church Patriarch finally gave the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles absolute control over the LDS Church.

The church Joseph Smith established, as still reflected in the Doctrine and Covenants, had three main governing bodies; the Patriarch, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.  (The Q12 was given authority only in the mission field where there were no stakes established, but that would soon change after Joseph Smith's death.)

When Joseph Smith died, Brigham Young came to power, promising that it would be the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who would lead the church.  The First Presidency was effectively dismantled and done away with.  It is likely the saints thought this would be a short-term thing as the Second Coming was anticipated any day.

In 1847, Brigham Young made the controversial move of reconstituting the First Presidency, but populated it entirely with apostles.  In this way, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles infiltrated the First Presidency.  This is why today the LDS Church has the strange situation of having 15 apostles instead of 12.  It is also why the president of the LDS Church is the most senior apostle.  There is no "real" First Presidency.  Just 15 apostles with three of them filling those offices.

After the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles took control of the First Presidency, the only other office competing with them was the Patriarch of the Church.

Over the years, the apostles took more and more authority away from the Church Patriarch, until in the 1970's, they put Patriarch Smith on emeritus status.  They did not call a new patriarch to take his place, either at that time, or when the last Church Patriarch passed away several years ago.

Of course, there is nothing in the revelations that suggests the apostles have the authority to call a Church Patriarch.  But so successful were the apostles in taking control of the Church that it appeared to most that the apostles did have that authority.

After the office of Church Patriarch was phased out, the apostles had complete and unfettered control over the LDS Church.

This is the situation in which we find ourselves today.

The apostolic coup d'etat is complete.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, consiglieri said:

My view is that the removal of the Church Patriarch finally gave the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles absolute control over the LDS Church.

The church Joseph Smith established, as still reflected in the Doctrine and Covenants, had three main governing bodies; the Patriarch, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.  (The Q12 was given authority only in the mission field where there were no stakes established, but that would soon change after Joseph Smith's death.)

When Joseph Smith died, Brigham Young came to power, promising that it would be the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who would lead the church.  The First Presidency was effectively dismantled and done away with.  It is likely the saints thought this would be a short-term thing as the Second Coming was anticipated any day.

In 1847, Brigham Young made the controversial move of reconstituting the First Presidency, but populated it entirely with apostles.  In this way, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles infiltrated the First Presidency.  This is why today the LDS Church has the strange situation of having 15 apostles instead of 12.  It is also why the president of the LDS Church is the most senior apostle.  There is no "real" First Presidency.  Just 15 apostles with three of them filling those offices.

After the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles took control of the First Presidency, the only other office competing with them was the Patriarch of the Church.

Over the years, the apostles took more and more authority away from the Church Patriarch, until in the 1970's, they put Patriarch Smith on emeritus status.  They did not call a new patriarch to take his place, either at that time, or when the last Church Patriarch passed away several years ago.

Of course, there is nothing in the revelations that suggests the apostles have the authority to call a Church Patriarch.  But so successful were the apostles in taking control of the Church that it appeared to most that the apostles did have that authority.

After the office of Church Patriarch was phased out, the apostles had complete and unfettered control over the LDS Church.

This is the situation in which we find ourselves today.

The apostolic coup d'etat is complete.

Agreed, although maybe not the political motives being attributed.  But I agree with your timeline of events here.
 

[CA Steve]

4 minutes ago, longview said:

What people would not have it?  Who are they?  Why?

Church membership was getting large enough, the Lord simply directed the leadership to delegate this function to the Stake level.  Can you imagine the Church Patriarch having to give Patriarchal Blessings to millions of members?  It is a question of logistics.

You might find the book a very interesting read. The Presiding Patriarch was not responsible to give everyone a blessing, he supervised the stake patriarchs, similar to what the Presiding Bishopric does today.

In my opinion, the problem with the Presiding Patriarch's office was that it was a hereditary office (through the lineage of Hyrum Smith) which did not allow the quorum of the 12 much choice over who was in the office. Given the importance and authority Joseph Smith gave to the office, it is hard to understand why we no longer need it today.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

You might find the book a very interesting read. The Presiding Patriarch was not responsible to give everyone a blessing, he supervised the stake patriarchs, similar to what the Presiding Bishopric does today.

In my opinion, the problem with the Presiding Patriarch's office was that it was a hereditary office (through the lineage of Hyrum Smith) which did not allow the quorum of the 12 much choice over who was in the office. Given the importance and authority Joseph Smith gave to the office, it is hard to understand why we no longer need it today.

He gave a lot of blessings too. I once heard President Monson relate that in a certain area of the Church the patriarch had gotten way behind in the giving of blessings. Elder Monson took Eldred G. Smith with him on a visit to that area, and, in short order, Brother Smith got things caught up. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, longview said:

What people would not have it?  Who are they?  Why?

Church membership was getting large enough, the Lord simply directed the leadership to delegate this function to the Stake level.  Can you imagine the Church Patriarch having to give Patriarchal Blessings to millions of members?  It is a question of logistics.

Well, by that same argument each stake has its own High Council so there's no need for a Quorum of the 12 anymore.

 

My two favorite bits of trivia from that book were that patriarchs used to be paid for giving blessings, which prompted this letter:

 

Quote

 

In 1877, John Taylor wrote to fellow apostle George Q. Cannon:

“The subject of the present condition of the patriarchs has lately been considered  by us.  It has appeared to several members of the Quorum that they have noticed a spirit amongst some of the brethren ordained to this office, to degrade it to a mere means of obtaining a livelihood, and to obtain more business they had been travelling from door to door and underbidding each other in the price of blessings.  This, we all considered, an evil that should be remedied as soon as possible.”

 

 

and that Hyrum G. Smith was Presiding Patriarch from 1912 - 1932 and gave tens of thousands of blessings, but never got his own Patriarchal Blessing!

Also the story of that other Presiding Patriarch.  You know the one...

Edited March 3, 2016 by cinepro

[cinepro]

And a book I just finished is "The Evolution of Thomas Hall".

It's a fictional story by Oscar-winning LDS filmmaker (and Rodney Meldrum supporter) Kieth Merrill, and tells the story of an accomplished artist who is commissioned to do a Christ-centered mural in a children's hospital and a secular mural in the Darwin pavilion of a museum, and how these projects affect his life and cause some soul searching.  Not a bad read, but the characters were a little 2-dimensional (the evil atheist scientist, the kind, benevolent Christians).

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, longview said:

Thank you for pointing out that Mosiah I did have possession.  Mosiah II did confer the records and the interpreters to Alma the Elder.

However I do not think the interpreters could casually be handed around.  Ether 3:23 the Lord commanded brother of Jared to seal up both the record and the interpreters.  In Joseph Smith History:  1:42 Again, he told me, that when I got those plates of which he had spoken—for the time that they should be obtained was not yet fulfilled—I should not show them to any person; neither the breastplate with the Urim and Thummim; only to those to whom I should be commanded to show them; if I did I should be destroyed.

If those things were "sealed" the search party should have found both.  I am more inclined to believe there was only the one set of interpreters.  Is it possible that some earlier Nephite prophet/leader could have obtained them from the Lord?

IMHO, the only reasonable way to interpret Omni 20-21 is that Mosiah I had received the interpreters from the Mulekites, who had received them from Coriantumr.  I agree that there was only one set of interpreters.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, consiglieri said:

My view is that the removal of the Church Patriarch finally gave the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles absolute control over the LDS Church.

Given the decentralized and conciliar nature of the LDS Church, along with the stark difference between the First Pres and Twelve, your view lacks substance.

The church Joseph Smith established, as still reflected in the Doctrine and Covenants, had three main governing bodies; the Patriarch, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.  (The Q12 was given authority only in the mission field where there were no stakes established, but that would soon change after Joseph Smith's death.)

When Joseph Smith died, Brigham Young came to power, promising that it would be the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles who would lead the church.  The First Presidency was effectively dismantled and done away with.  It is likely the saints thought this would be a short-term thing as the Second Coming was anticipated any day.

In 1847, Brigham Young made the controversial move of reconstituting the First Presidency, but populated it entirely with apostles.  In this way, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles infiltrated the First Presidency.  This is why today the LDS Church has the strange situation of having 15 apostles instead of 12.  It is also why the president of the LDS Church is the most senior apostle.  There is no "real" First Presidency.  Just 15 apostles with three of them filling those offices.

The obvious fluidity of God's kingdom on Earth belies such a notion (cf. Bible and Book of Mormon).  Indeed, since the Church is only a temporary institution, and is regularly manipulated by the priesthood to suit its needs, your unrealistic critique seems particularly ultra-conservative.

Moreover, since earliest Christianity was ruled by a group of Twelve (supervised by three priests = 15 in toto), as a direct continuation of the officers of the Jewish synagogue,^[1] and of the Qumran covenant community,^[2] you are really finding fault with primitive Jewish Christianity and its continuation in the Restored Church.

---

^[1] James T. Burtchaell, From Synagogue to Church : Public Services and Offices in the Earliest Christian Communities (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1992); Hugh Nibley, Apostles and Bishops in Early Christianity, CWHN 15 (FARMS/Deseret, 2005).

^[2] R. E. Brown in J. H. Charles­worth, ed., John and Qumran (1972); enlarged as John and the Dead Sea Scrolls (Cross­road, 1990), 6-7; R. Brown, New Testament Essays, 27-30 (or 49-53); Joseph Baumgarten, “The Duodecimal Courts of Qumran, Revelation, and the Sanhedrin,” JBL, 95 (1976):59-78.

After the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles took control of the First Presidency, the only other office competing with them was the Patriarch of the Church.

Over the years, the apostles took more and more authority away from the Church Patriarch, until in the 1970's, they put Patriarch Smith on emeritus status.  They did not call a new patriarch to take his place, either at that time, or when the last Church Patriarch passed away several years ago.

Of course, there is nothing in the revelations that suggests the apostles have the authority to call a Church Patriarch.  But so successful were the apostles in taking control of the Church that it appeared to most that the apostles did have that authority.

After the office of Church Patriarch was phased out, the apostles had complete and unfettered control over the LDS Church.

This is the situation in which we find ourselves today.

The apostolic coup d'etat is complete.

Wonderful Machiavellian analysis and conclusion, but built on a false foundation.  You might try being a playwright, counselor.

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[consiglieri]

33 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

I always appreciate your erudition, Robert, even where we disagree.

I think this one assertion of yours may lack independent verification, though:

 

Quote

Moreover, since earliest Christianity was ruled by a group of Twelve (supervised by three priests = 15 in toto),

While I am aware of the Qumran Community having such a system, I am unaware of any documents asserting that this same system was in place "since earliest Christianity."

Although the NT asserts Peter, James and John were "pillars," there is nothing of which I am aware suggesting they were a separate body situated above the other twelve apostles.

[Doctrine 612]

The Jewish New Testament comentary,  it is a lot of fun to see the New Testament from a Jewish perspective.

also the Book of Mormon and the epistle to the Romans