longview Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: IMHO, the only reasonable way to interpret Omni 20-21 is that Mosiah I had received the interpreters from the Mulekites, who had received them from Coriantumr. I agree that there was only one set of interpreters. Since the Lord gave explicit instructions about safeguarding the interpreters, it would have to be the Lord that controls the conveyance of the instrument. But we are lacking records of who the first Nephite leader that obtained custody. Another interesting question in relation to Coriantumr. We know he was among the Mulekites for "nine moons." We also know Ether lived to witness the final destruction of the Jaredite people and complete his record. But we have no record of Ether visiting the Mulekites. Did Ether provide ministrations to Coriantumr and help him travel to Zarahemla? Did Ether choose to remain anonymous and stay in the background? Was Ether the one that handed the interpreters to Mosiah I (at the command of the Lord)? If so, why did not Ether hand over the Jaredite records to the King Mosiah? Maybe the Lord's purpose was for that record to be translated much later (when King Limhi's people escaped back to Zarahemla)? Edited March 4, 2016 by longview
longview Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 8 hours ago, JLHPROF said: When Joseph made the proposal that Hyrum be President of the Church (which was his right as Patriarch) and that Joseph would continue as priesthood head some protested because they didn't understand correct priesthood order like Joseph did. How come you do not provide references for your quotes?
Robert F. Smith Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 5 hours ago, consiglieri said: I always appreciate your erudition, Robert, even where we disagree. I think this one assertion of yours may lack independent verification, though: Quote Moreover, since earliest Christianity was ruled by a group of Twelve (supervised by three priests = 15 in toto), hile I am aware of the Qumran Community having such a system, I am unaware of any documents asserting that this same system was in place "since earliest Christianity." Although the NT asserts Peter, James and John were "pillars," there is nothing of which I am aware suggesting they were a separate body situated above the other twelve apostles. Great rabbis are sometimes described the same way as walls or pillars (Gal 2:9). Richard Ll. Anderson provides the LDS case in the August 1988 Ensign, and online at https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/08/the-first-presidency-of-the-early-church-their-lives-and-epistles?lang=eng ,. There are a variety of assertions about the organized nature of early Christianity in the NT -- they are not unified. Jesus himself is called an apostle (Hebrews 3:1), and the Johannine approach speaks of the Twelve rather than apostles, while the lists of apostles vary throughout the NT (there are more than twelve, even including women). Scholars read between the lines. In so doing , they even find competition between the family of Jesus and the Twelve for dominance, just as we find in the RLDS and LDS traditions. Non-Mormon professor John Gager used that fact as a basis for his comparison of early Christianity with Mormonism in a well-known Mormon History Association lecture many years ago: John G. Gager, "Early Mormonism and Early Christianity: Some Parallels and Their Consequences for the Study of New Religions," MHA Tanner Lecture, May 8, 1982, at Weber State, Ogden, Utah, published in the Journal of Mormon History, 9 (1982):53-60, online at http://www.jstor.org/stable/23285916 You may be fixated on the Twelve as an absolute number for the Quorum, but that is nonsense. One may even be a member of the First Presidency without ever being a member of the Twelve. 1
JLHPROF Posted March 4, 2016 Author Posted March 4, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, longview said: How come you do not provide references for your quotes? Really? I probably provide more references than most posters - I might occasionally skip one if it's a well known story. I don't list JSH 1 every time I quote the first vision, I actually assume most people here are well read on most teachings of Joseph. What, you think I'm making up quotes? "Last Monday morning certain men came to me and said: "Brother Joseph, Hyrum is no prophet--he can't lead the church; you must lead the church. If you resign, all things will go wrong; you must not resign; if you do the church will be scattered." I felt curious and said: "Have we not learned the Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek, which includes both Prophets, Priests and Kings: see Rev. 1 Chap., 6th v., and I will advance your Prophet to a Priest, and then to a King--not to the Kingdoms of this earth, but of the Most High God. See Rev. 5 Chap., 10th v.--'Thou hast made us unto our God, Kings and Priests, and we shall reign on the earth.'" - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, page 318 Last Monday morning certain men came to me.—Bro Joseph Hyrum is no prophet he cant lead the church, you must lead the Church—if you resign I felt curious—& said—here we learn in a priesthood after the order of Melchisedeck—Prophet priest & king. & I will advance from prophet to priest & then to King not to the kingdoms of this earth but of the most high god. - Words of Joseph Smith by Ehat and Cook, page 234 Satisfied? Edited March 4, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
Robert F. Smith Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 16 hours ago, longview said: Since the Lord gave explicit instructions about safeguarding the interpreters, it would have to be the Lord that controls the conveyance of the instrument. But we are lacking records of who the first Nephite leader that obtained custody. Another interesting question in relation to Coriantumr. We know he was among the Mulekites for "nine moons." We also know Ether lived to witness the final destruction of the Jaredite people and complete his record. But we have no record of Ether visiting the Mulekites. Did Ether provide ministrations to Coriantumr and help him travel to Zarahemla? Did Ether choose to remain anonymous and stay in the background? Was Ether the one that handed the interpreters to Mosiah I (at the command of the Lord)? If so, why did not Ether hand over the Jaredite records to the King Mosiah? Maybe the Lord's purpose was for that record to be translated much later (when King Limhi's people escaped back to Zarahemla)? Part of the problem is that we do not have the book of Lehi section of the Book of Mormon, nor the first couple of chapters of the book of Mosiah (the116 pages). They likely contained the details we now lack. 1
longview Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 On 3/4/2016 at 9:38 PM, JLHPROF said: Really? I probably provide more references than most posters - I might occasionally skip one if it's a well known story. You were implying that being Patriarch to the Church is equal in authority to being President of the Church. Most members would disagree with you. On 3/4/2016 at 9:38 PM, JLHPROF said: What, you think I'm making up quotes? When full context is lacking, you had better provide references. Especially oddball assertions. On 3/4/2016 at 9:38 PM, JLHPROF said: "Last Monday morning certain men came to me and said: "Brother Joseph, Hyrum is no prophet--he can't lead the church; you must lead the church. If you resign, all things will go wrong; you must not resign; if you do the church will be scattered." - Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, page 318 This is simply an excerpt from a sermon given by Joseph Smith on a Sunday, 23 July 1843. I had to go look in volume 5 of "History of the Church" page 516 for the complete transcript. It turns out that JS was responding to concerns of some people that heard his sermon that he gave the previous Sunday, 16 July 1843 (see page 510). This is what JS said then: "The same spirit that crucified Jesus is in the breast of some who profess to be Saints in Nauvoo. I have secret enemies in the city intermingling with the Saints, etc. Said I would not prophesy any more, and proposed that Hyrum to hold the office of prophet to the Church, as it was his birthright." JS had been fighting extradition efforts in the past few months to return him to Missouri to face charges of treason against that state. In his Sunday 23 sermon, JS said: "It has gone abroad that I proclaimed myself no longer a prophet. I said it last Sabbath ironically - - -" Several paragraphs later, JS said: "Last Monday certain brethren came to me and said they could hardly consent to receive Hyrum as a prophet, and for me to resign. But I told them, 'I only said it to try your faith; and it is strange, brethren, that you have been in the Church so long, and not yet understand the Melchisedek Priesthood'." Then JS ends with this: "It is contrary to Gov. Ford's oath of office, to send a man to Missouri - - -." Now do you see why context is important? Hyrum was already Patriarch to the Church. He had been a counselor in the First Presidency and was called to be Patriarch by revelation given on 19 January 1841. Which is 2 and a half years prior to the event described above. D&C 124 outlines Hyrum's calling: 91 And again, verily I say unto you, let my servant William be appointed, ordained, and anointed, as counselor unto my servant Joseph, in the room of my servant Hyrum (William took the place of Hyrum), that my servant Hyrum may take the office of Priesthood and Patriarch, which was appointed unto him by his father (the previous patriarch), by blessing and also by right; 92 That from henceforth he shall hold the keys of the patriarchal blessings upon the heads of all my people, 93 That whoever he blesses shall be blessed, and whoever he curses shall be cursed; that whatsoever he shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 94 And from this time forth I appoint unto him that he may be a prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto my church (similar in stature to Apostles), as well as my servant Joseph; 95 That he may act in concert also with my servant Joseph; and that he shall receive counsel from my servant Joseph, who shall show unto him the keys whereby he may ask and receive, and be crowned with the same blessing, and glory, and honor, and priesthood, and gifts of the priesthood, that once were put upon him that was my servant Oliver Cowdery; 96 That my servant Hyrum may bear record of the things which I shall show unto him, that his name may be had in honorable remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever. 3
VideoGameJunkie Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 I'm finishing up the Pearl of Great Price, then I'll pick up where I left off at the end of Alma in the Book of Mormon, then I'll read through Doctrine and Covenants and then after that begin the New Testament. 1
flameburns623 Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 Tangential question: What are LDS Sunday Schools studying this year? BoM? D&C? Church Hiistory? Or the OT/NT?
Okrahomer Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 (edited) On March 5, 2016 at 1:01 AM, flameburns623 said: Tangential question: What are LDS Sunday Schools studying this year? BoM? D&C? Church Hiistory? Or the OT/NT? LDS Sunday Schools are studying the Book of Mormon this year, but I teach in the Primary--CTR-5; so I'm getting a big dose of Sharing Time and Choose The Right. It is humbling to work with these little ones to develop their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. Edited March 6, 2016 by Okrahomer 2
rodheadlee Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 I just finished the "Lincoln Myth" by Steve Berry. It's fictional history, sort of.I don't know if Steve Berry was/is LDS or not, I don't think so. The book dealt with the White Horse prophecy, the Church and the Civil War, some constitutional issues of today as well as the Founding Fathers. I didn't care for the ending but it was a good book. In the afterward the author separates fact from fiction.
Teancum Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 None of the current books I am reading are LDS themed but they do have religious themes: 1: How Jesus Became God by Bart Ehrman 2: God Is Not One by STEPHEN PROTHERO
deli_llama Posted March 6, 2016 Posted March 6, 2016 6 hours ago, Teancum said: None of the current books I am reading are LDS themed but they do have religious themes: 1: How Jesus Became God by Bart Ehrman 2: God Is Not One by STEPHEN PROTHERO Thumbs-up, little like button, favorite, and a star for God is Not One.
Coreyb Posted March 6, 2016 Posted March 6, 2016 So I am reading "Wild" Bill Hickman and the Mormon Frontier, The Book of Mormon Girl with my wife, and Things in Heaven and Earth: the Life and Times of Wilford Woodruff. Interestingly enough that last book brought up some questions which caused me to go back and re-read The first three chapters in The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, which brought up some questions causing me to go to the Library and read a portion of Lost Legacy yesterday. I am trying to craft an opening post for a thread on here about Apostles overstepping their authority but am not sure if I can simplify my thoughts enough. I like Consigs brief history in his post but I must add that I think the twelves first step into absolute power happened during the 1838 Missouri crisis not during the succession crisis. Also, many of these "power grabs" happened, I think, for benevolent or pragmatic reasons, not necessarily a quest for greater control.
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