Oman Grants Permission to Dig Possible Nephi’s Bountiful

[halconero]

7 hours ago, longview said:

Can you expand on that?

From Nephi to Benjamin there were two sets of Nephite plates, referred to as "the plates of Nephi," and "the small plates."

The plates of Nephi detailed a general account of Lehi's journey, the reigns of the Nephite Kings, and an account of some prophets, and were abridged/edited by Mormon. It was a portion of these which were lost by Martin Harris.

The small plates were more particularly focused on the priestly/prophetic line of the Nephites, and contained a journal of Nephi, the teachings of his brother Jacob, his son Enos, and their descendants. This was added to the record by Mormon, but remained unedited by him. Mormon's abridgement/redaction/editing begins at the Words of Mormon and continues through to Mormon, when Moroni takes over.

It's a rather interesting note to make. Commentary on the spiritual state of the Nephites, their history, and clarification of events doesn't really being until the Words of Mormon and stops by the end of Mormon. These are signified by phrases such as "or rather" and "thus we see" which are primarily contained in this section.

Edited February 13, 2016 by halconero

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

It appears as though the Book of Mormon has failed, even before it gets out of the old world.

Certainly in Johnnie's eyes anyhow.  Of course, most of his theoretical requirements are outlandish and unnecessary, and do not accord with the types of boats which have been manufactured in the past along the Hadhramaut and Dhofar coast -- See  George Potter & Richard Wellington, Lehi in the Wilderness (Springville: Cedar Fort, 2003), 158.

[strappinglad]

The more interesting part of the article to me was the apparent knowledge of Mormons that the Omani authorities had. Whodathunkit !

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I find this an exciting development and one of the most promising opportunities to find evidence of Lehi's party.  I've made a list of the industries that Nephi would have needed, so surely evidence in any one of these areas could be found.

Industries needed for Nephi and company to make a Transocean Ship

 Smelting Ovens /Blast Furness

01.   Charcoal Ovens to make charcoal for fire to make blast Furness since there was no coal for making coke.

02.   Acres of forests to get the wood needed to make the charcoal for blast furnace and wood for the ship

03.   Thousands of Nails, metal strapping, hand tools ie hammers, all’s, saws etc

Question: Where did he get tools to access Iron Ore in the first place?

 ..................................................................................... 

Hi Johnnie.

Actually, coking ovens and blast furnaces were not needed to make steel tools, and steel had been made regularly in both Palestine and South Arabia (and other parts of the Middle East) from about 1100 BC onward.  One needed iron ore, a clay oven, wood, and bellows (note the bellows in I Nephi 17:11).  From this one developed a bloom of iron which could be worked by a smith into whatever shape was necessary, and quenching and beating were part of the standard process.  Iron ore outcroppings were available locally, as well as in the New World in Oaxaca.

The Lehites did not need nails or metal straps, but likely used rawhide along with tongue and groove construction.  Their tents could be sewn into sails.  They did not need a huge ship, bur rather a large boat or dhow.

Your whole conception of the necessary industries is vastly overblown.

[cinepro]

16 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Certainly in Johnnie's eyes anyhow.  Of course, most of his theoretical requirements are outlandish and unnecessary, and do not accord with the types of boats which have been manufactured in the past along the Hadhramaut and Dhofar coast -- See  George Potter & Richard Wellington, Lehi in the Wilderness (Springville: Cedar Fort, 2003), 158.

Here are the verses that describe the building and operation of the ship.  How many people do you think were on the ship, and what kind of a ship do you think is being described that could carry that many people across the Pacific Ocean?

1 Nephi 17

7 And it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had been in the land of Bountiful for the space of many days, the voice of the Lord came unto me, saying: Arise, and get thee into the mountain. And it came to pass that I arose and went up into the mountain, and cried unto the Lord.

 8 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall show thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters.

 9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?

 10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

 11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

16 And it came to pass that I did make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock.

1 Nephi 18

 1 And it came to pass that they did worship the Lord, and did go forth with me; and we did work timbers of curious workmanship. And the Lord did show me from time to time after what manner I should work the timbers of the ship.

 2 Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men.

 4 And it came to pass that after I had finished the ship, according to the word of the Lord, my brethren beheld that it was good, and that the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine; wherefore, they did humble themselves again before the Lord.

 13 Wherefore, they knew not whither they should steer the ship, insomuch that there arose a great storm, yea, a great and terrible tempest, and we were driven back upon the waters for the space of three days; and they began to be frightened exceedingly lest they should be drowned in the sea; nevertheless they did not loose me.

 22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did guide the ship, that we sailed again towards the promised land.

Edited February 12, 2016 by cinepro

[Sevenbak]

5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I find this an exciting development and one of the most promising opportunities to find evidence of Lehi's party.  I've made a list of the industries that Nephi would have needed, so surely evidence in any one of these areas could be found.

 

Industries needed for Nephi and company to make a Transocean Ship

 

Smelting Ovens /Blast Furness

01.   Charcoal Ovens to make charcoal for fire to make blast Furness since there was no coal for making coke.

02.   Acres of forests to get the wood needed to make the charcoal for blast furnace and wood for the ship

03.   Thousands of Nails, metal strapping, hand tools ie hammers, all’s, saws etc

Question: Where did he get tools to access Iron Ore in the first place?

 

Dry Dock

 

01.   Excavation of earth below water line

02.   Gates that hold water back

03.   Pumps to keep water out

Tanning

01.   Skins needed for bellows

Make a Keel Capable of surviving an Oceanic voyage

01.   Forest with trees suitable for making a keel

02.   Steam to bend the Keel

Resin/Tar

01.   To make the ship water tight

Rope

01.   Hemp

02.   Flax

03.   Animal skin or

04.   Wool

05.   And all the specialized tool to make rope

Sheep Farming

01.   Sheep are needed to produce wool for a Sail. It takes 1 sheep to produce enough wool for 1 square foot of sail . Assuming a  30x30 sail a herd of 900 sheep would be required. If more than 1 sail was produced this would either require multiple years of wool production or more sheep since sheep can only be sheared once per season.

02. Of course a larger ship, like the kind Lehi/Nephi's party would have required would be in need of a much larger sail than a 30x30.  Using the standard boat displacement to sail ratio of 18lbs of displacement to every foot of sail. So a small boat say with a 12,000 lbs displacement would require 650 square feet of sail. A 75,000 lbs ship would require 4,000 sq ft of sail.  A 100 foot ship with a displacement of 150,000 pounds then would require nearly 8,500 feet of sail and even this would be a slow boat....this would require a herd of about 8,500 sheep, plus all of the grazing requirements to feed and sustain.  We know the Lehite party spent many years at Bountiful...but I wonder how many years it would have taken to build up their Sheep herd to 8,500 from their smaller breading herd? This also assumes none of the wool is used to make clothing for other uses. But the good news is that a herd this large would have left behind evidence of their existence for the archeologist to discover.

Clothe-weaving-looms

01.   Needed to create the clothe necessary for make a sail

 

The invention of a Rudder with all of its intricacies (something that wasn’t invented until 200 years after Lehi)

01.   Pullies

02.   Ropes

03.   Gears

Food Preservation Techniques

01.   Pickling

02.   Food drying etc

Water and Food Storage

01.   Men require a minimum of 4 liters of water per day, woman would need 3, assuming a party of 25-30 divided between men and woman there would be a need for or about 100 liters per day. Assuming a 200 day journey this would require 20,000 liters of water stored on the boat.  There are 1,000 liters of water per square meter.  20,000 meters would barely fit in a 10m x 20m holding tank. which is about 33 feet by 65 feet...and that's just for water.  This assumes they use none of it for washing, bathing or cooking.

02.  Once we add additional room for food and humble sleeping quarters...we could have a ship of nearly 100 feet in length, of course water needs could be lowers if we assume Nephi made various landings along the way to replenish a smaller water reserve.

Pottery for food and water storage

 01. Baking ovens to make the pottery

 02. Clay diggings to make the pottery

 

This list is not all inclusive but gives an idea of the magnitude of what these archeologist will find in Bountiful

 

Other things that might be discovered:  waist deposits, animal bones, fire pits, perhaps a grave or 2 in addition to the construction sight.

 

So the good news is that Nephi would have had a huge construction sight in Bountiful...making it almost certain that this archeological dig will be successful...

 

 

Or, perhaps it happened the way the text said it did...

"Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men."

[Johnnie Cake]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Hi Johnnie.

Actually, coking ovens and blast furnaces were not needed to make steel tools, and steel had been made regularly in both Palestine and South Arabia (and other parts of the Middle East) from about 1100 BC onward.  One needed iron ore, a clay oven, wood, and bellows (note the bellows in I Nephi 17:11).  From this one developed a bloom of iron which could be worked by a smith into whatever shape was necessary, and quenching and beating were part of the standard process.  Iron ore outcroppings were available locally, as well as in the New World in Oaxaca.

The Lehites did not need nails or metal straps, but likely used rawhide along with tongue and groove construction.  Their tents could be sewn into sails.  They did not need a huge ship, bur rather a large boat or dhow.

Your whole conception of the necessary industries is vastly overblown.

I postulated the industries needed based on the size of ship required...to provide enough storage for water, food, sleeping, animals etc and ability to withstand the elements of an oceanic voyage.  What you're suggesting is a canoe...which doesn't seem to meet even the most basic standard.  So given the number of people in the Lehite party, a modest estimate of 25-30 and assuming that they were crowed and cramped in their humble ship and with the clear understanding that this exercise is complete speculation...what size ship might you suggest Nephi built?...10', 30',50', 70' 100'?   What ever you suggest, since were only speculating,  please back it up with some logic.   

Edited February 12, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

deleted

Edited February 12, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[strappinglad]

Well, the Vikings seemed to be able to cross the ocean in this type of ship and carry and supply a crew of about 30. Mind you, that was about 1000 years later than Nephi  ,but the ship didn't look like Columbus' boat either. 

Knarr is the Norse term for ships that were built for Atlantic voyages. They were cargo ships averaging a length of about 54 feet (16 m), a beam of 15 feet (4.6 m), and a hull capable of carrying up to 122 tons.^[4] Overall displacement: 50 tons. This is shorter than the Gokstad type of longships, but knarrs are studier by design and they depended mostly on sail-power, only putting oars to use as auxiliaries, if there was no wind on the open water. Because of this, the knarr was used for longer voyages, ocean going transports and more hazardous trips than the Gokstad type. It was capable of sailing 75 miles (121 km) in one day, held a crew of about 20-30, and knarrs^[5]routinely crossed the North Atlantic in the Viking Age, carrying livestock and goods to and from Greenland and the North Atlantic islands. The design of the knarr later influenced the design of the cog, used in the Baltic Sea by theHanseatic League.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, halconero said:

From Nephi to Benjamin there were two sets of Nephite plates, referred to as "the plates of Nephi," ......

Thank you....

[Johnnie Cake]

19 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Well, the Vikings seemed to be able to cross the ocean in this type of ship and carry and supply a crew of about 30. Mind you, that was about 1000 years later than Nephi  ,but the ship didn't look like Columbus' boat either. 

Knarr is the Norse term for ships that were built for Atlantic voyages. They were cargo ships averaging a length of about 54 feet (16 m), a beam of 15 feet (4.6 m), and a hull capable of carrying up to 122 tons.^[4] Overall displacement: 50 tons. This is shorter than the Gokstad type of longships, but knarrs are studier by design and they depended mostly on sail-power, only putting oars to use as auxiliaries, if there was no wind on the open water. Because of this, the knarr was used for longer voyages, ocean going transports and more hazardous trips than the Gokstad type. It was capable of sailing 75 miles (121 km) in one day, held a crew of about 20-30, and knarrs^[5]routinely crossed the North Atlantic in the Viking Age, carrying livestock and goods to and from Greenland and the North Atlantic islands. The design of the knarr later influenced the design of the cog, used in the Baltic Sea by theHanseatic League.

Lehi would have had to travel over 4 times as far as Columbus or the Vikings and would have had to cross the Pacific rather then the Atlantic...a much more hazardous ocean

Edited February 12, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[RevTestament]

7 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Lehi would have had to travel over 4 times as far as Columbus or the Vikings and would have had to cross the Pacific rather then the Atlantic...a much more hazardous ocean

Not if they sailed to the East coast of the Americas. There is some evidence Africans did it. You can google cocaine and nicotine mummies in Egypt - substances from American plants which have been confirmed to be in African mummies pre-Columbus. Certain Olmec statues also have African facial features of the ridged lips and Negro nose. There is also some archaeological evidence of early Africans in Brazil. They were apparently made extinct by the other natives.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

Here are the verses that describe the building and operation of the ship.  How many people do you think were on the ship, and what kind of a ship do you think is being described that could carry that many people across the Pacific Ocean?

Of course, you failed to acknowledge that I had already cited one of those verses (the bellows in I Ne 17:11).  You also failed to note the lack of specific blueprints in that chapter.  You see what you want to see here, as in other parts of the Book of Mormon.  I see and interpret the Book of Mormon the same way scholars see and interpret the Bible, and for the same reasons.  Johnnie would have us believe that our only choices are either an ocean liner or a canoe, being wholly ignorant of anything in between -- particularly actual boats built at that place and time.  Perhaps you have some real world suggestions of the size and types of craft required.  By all means tell us about them and the reasons for them.

[cinepro]

5 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Well, the Vikings seemed to be able to cross the ocean in this type of ship and carry and supply a crew of about 30. Mind you, that was about 1000 years later than Nephi  ,but the ship didn't look like Columbus' boat either. 

Knarr is the Norse term for ships that were built for Atlantic voyages. They were cargo ships averaging a length of about 54 feet (16 m), a beam of 15 feet (4.6 m), and a hull capable of carrying up to 122 tons.^[4] Overall displacement: 50 tons. This is shorter than the Gokstad type of longships, but knarrs are studier by design and they depended mostly on sail-power, only putting oars to use as auxiliaries, if there was no wind on the open water. Because of this, the knarr was used for longer voyages, ocean going transports and more hazardous trips than the Gokstad type. It was capable of sailing 75 miles (121 km) in one day, held a crew of about 20-30, and knarrs^[5]routinely crossed the North Atlantic in the Viking Age, carrying livestock and goods to and from Greenland and the North Atlantic islands. The design of the knarr later influenced the design of the cog, used in the Baltic Sea by theHanseatic League.

I don't know how accurate this map is, but the journey from northern Europe to northern North America isn't in the same league as crossing the Pacific Ocean.  You can be relatively close to land the entire time:

 

http://mysteriesofourworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/vikingmap-291x300.png

[cinepro]

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course, you failed to acknowledge that I had already cited one of those verses (the bellows in I Ne 17:11).  You also failed to note the lack of specific blueprints in that chapter.  You see what you want to see here, as in other parts of the Book of Mormon.  I see and interpret the Book of Mormon the same way scholars see and interpret the Bible, and for the same reasons.  Johnnie would have us believe that our only choices are either an ocean liner or a canoe, being wholly ignorant of anything in between -- particularly actual boats built at that place and time.  Perhaps you have some real world suggestions of the size and types of craft required.  By all means tell us about them and the reasons for them.

I don't have the book, so can you tell me if the boats you are referring to were used for long ocean journeys or were for coastal trading?  And can you tell me if this is an accurate quote for what Potter and Wellington theorize?  Because their points seem remarkably similar to Johnnie Cake's.

 

 Potter and Wellington believe that Nephi's ship must have been even larger than the largest Arab merchant ships of his day for the following reasons:

     1. The Number of People Aboard: Even if we limited the size of Nephi's party to 50 individuals, he would have needed to build a ship at least as big as the largest ocean-going freighters of that day.

     2. Food & Water & Utensils for a Pacific Crossing: Perhaps the greatest fear in regard to water is for the ship to be trapped in a fair weather doldrums for weeks on end without the ship being able to move forward and without rains. Additionally, once past India, there were few, if any, ports where Nephi could have restocked his ship. Presumably, they fished and collected rainwater when possible, and they also possibly stopped often along the way at tropical islands to search for water and food. It is certain Nephi needed to have taken on board large stores of food and water. For Severin's voyage to China, his 20-man crew rationed 25 gallons of water a day for drinking water and cooking. All washing was done in sea water, while the cooking water was diluted, half and half, with sea water. His ship carried a month and a half supply of water, roughly 1100 gallons.494 It is reasonable to assume that Nephi's ship required a water reserve at least twice that size. Depending on the winds, the voyage to the New World probably took at least a year.495 Sailing the Pacific is not a casual venture.

     3. Ship's Repairs & Tools: A wooden ship is in need of constant maintenance, an endless effort that, once stopped, dooms the ship. Nephi's ship had to be maintained while on the open sea. It is likely that he beached his vessel once or twice for repairs, but dry-docks and shipbuilding yards there were none. Thus he had to carry with him all the tools and supplies necessary to maintain the ship, its riggings and sails.

     4. Extra Sails: Large sailing ships carried one suit of sails for the night and bad weather, and another suit of sails for day and fair weather. The main sail on Severin's ship required 2,000 square feet of canvas. During one stormy day in the China Sea, his ship had five sails "ripped to shreds."496 We can be assured that Nephi's ship needed several sets of sails, and so she had to have the capacity to hold all of these as well.

     5. Tents?: Nephi's family might have taken tents with them to the land of promise (see 1 Nephi 18:23). If so, they would have been traditional Middle Eastern tents. A typical folded 10' x 10' goat hair tent measures 3' x 3' x 6.5' feet or 58.5 square feet. Multiply that by eight families, and the tents form a stack 13 feet long, 6 feet wide and 6 feet tall.

     6. Anchors & Ballast, etc.: Resting the ship and maneuvering through straits required heavy anchors. Ancient anchors have been recovered in Omani waters. They were made from stone and were quite heavy. A recently recovered anchor in Oman weighed 2,200 pounds and was 9 feet long.497 Severin's ship carried four anchors, which is one less than ancient Mediterranean ships carried. Ballast for maintaining a ship in an upright position was also necessary. For example, Tim Severin's ship the Sohar required 15 tons of sandbags as ballast.

[George Potter and Richard Wellington, Discovering the Lehi-Nephi Trail, Unpublished Manuscript (July 2000), pp. 199-202]

 

 

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

I don't have the book

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2016 by ksfisher
Wrong link

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I postulated the industries needed based on the size of ship required...to provide enough storage for water, food, sleeping, animals etc and ability to withstand the elements of an oceanic voyage.  What you're suggesting is a canoe...which doesn't seem to meet even the most basic standard.  So given the number of people in the Lehite party, a modest estimate of 25-30 and assuming that they were crowed and cramped in their humble ship and with the clear understanding that this exercise is complete speculation...what size ship might you suggest Nephi built?...10', 30',50', 70' 100'?   What ever you suggest, since were only speculating,  please back it up with some logic.   

You postulated nonsense.  You claimed they needed a rudder (not yet invented), yet the Phoenician navigators got along fine without it, using a steering oar instead.  Your estimates on water needs ignored possible rain water collected during the voyage.  You slightly overestimate the number of people in the Lehite party (at least 20, but could be 25 with births), and also imagine that they took animals on board (they took only "provisions" and "seeds").  A small phoenician-size ship of 65' would be adequate, which would not require the massive forestation you demand.  Given the technology then available, Nephi could indeed have built the necessary craft, even though we are not provided specifics in the text.  There is great difference between logical speculation and wild speculation.

[Robert F. Smith]

23 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I don't have the book, so can you tell me if the boats you are referring to were used for long ocean journeys or were for coastal trading?  And can you tell me if this is an accurate quote for what Potter and Wellington theorize?  Because their points seem remarkably similar to Johnnie Cake's.

I was referring to page 158 of Potter & Wellington, Lehi in the Wilderness, cited above, which you can find online at https://books.google.com/books?id=GN1k6Y-gTMkC&pg=PA158&dq=boats+in+dhofar&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjBw-_-_PPKAhUM6GMKHYmDDPEQ6AEIOzAC#v=onepage&q=boats in dhofar&f=false .  Unlike Johnnie Cake, they cite actual boats, their construction, and sizes, all in a real world context.  I don't hold with their felt need for huge ships (note the 110' dhow), but do like the depth of evidence they provide.  It enables one to have a substantive discussion.

[rodheadlee]

12 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I find this an exciting development and one of the most promising opportunities to find evidence of Lehi's party.  I've made a list of the industries that Nephi would have needed, so surely evidence in any one of these areas could be found.

 

Industries needed for Nephi and company to make a Transocean Ship

 

Smelting Ovens /Blast Furness

01.   Charcoal Ovens to make charcoal for fire to make blast Furness since there was no coal for making coke.

02.   Acres of forests to get the wood needed to make the charcoal for blast furnace and wood for the ship

03.   Thousands of Nails, metal strapping, hand tools ie hammers, all’s, saws etc

Question: Where did he get tools to access Iron Ore in the first place?

 

Dry Dock

 

01.   Excavation of earth below water line

02.   Gates that hold water back

03.   Pumps to keep water out

Tanning

01.   Skins needed for bellows

Make a Keel Capable of surviving an Oceanic voyage

01.   Forest with trees suitable for making a keel

02.   Steam to bend the Keel

Resin/Tar

01.   To make the ship water tight

Rope

01.   Hemp

02.   Flax

03.   Animal skin or

04.   Wool

05.   And all the specialized tool to make rope

Sheep Farming

01.   Sheep are needed to produce wool for a Sail. It takes 1 sheep to produce enough wool for 1 square foot of sail . Assuming a  30x30 sail a herd of 900 sheep would be required. If more than 1 sail was produced this would either require multiple years of wool production or more sheep since sheep can only be sheared once per season.

02. Of course a larger ship, like the kind Lehi/Nephi's party would have required would be in need of a much larger sail than a 30x30.  Using the standard boat displacement to sail ratio of 18lbs of displacement to every foot of sail. So a small boat say with a 12,000 lbs displacement would require 650 square feet of sail. A 75,000 lbs ship would require 4,000 sq ft of sail.  A 100 foot ship with a displacement of 150,000 pounds then would require nearly 8,500 feet of sail and even this would be a slow boat....this would require a herd of about 8,500 sheep, plus all of the grazing requirements to feed and sustain.  We know the Lehite party spent many years at Bountiful...but I wonder how many years it would have taken to build up their Sheep herd to 8,500 from their smaller breading herd? This also assumes none of the wool is used to make clothing for other uses. But the good news is that a herd this large would have left behind evidence of their existence for the archeologist to discover.

Clothe-weaving-looms

01.   Needed to create the clothe necessary for make a sail

 

The invention of a Rudder with all of its intricacies (something that wasn’t invented until 200 years after Lehi)

01.   Pullies

02.   Ropes

03.   Gears

Food Preservation Techniques

01.   Pickling

02.   Food drying etc

Water and Food Storage

01.   Men require a minimum of 4 liters of water per day, woman would need 3, assuming a party of 25-30 divided between men and woman there would be a need for or about 100 liters per day. Assuming a 200 day journey this would require 20,000 liters of water stored on the boat.  There are 1,000 liters of water per square meter.  20,000 meters would barely fit in a 10m x 20m holding tank. which is about 33 feet by 65 feet...and that's just for water.  This assumes they use none of it for washing, bathing or cooking.

02.  Once we add additional room for food and humble sleeping quarters...we could have a ship of nearly 100 feet in length, of course water needs could be lowers if we assume Nephi made various landings along the way to replenish a smaller water reserve.

Pottery for food and water storage

 01. Baking ovens to make the pottery

 02. Clay diggings to make the pottery

 

This list is not all inclusive but gives an idea of the magnitude of what these archeologist will find in Bountiful

 

Other things that might be discovered:  waist deposits, animal bones, fire pits, perhaps a grave or 2 in addition to the construction sight.

 

So the good news is that Nephi would have had a huge construction sight in Bountiful...making it almost certain that this archeological dig will be successful...

 

 

Nephi's ship was probably about the size of the holding tank you described. 64' x 18' was about the the size of the Santa Maria. The ship had a crew of 52 counting Columbus. It carried plenty of supplies and cargo. Nephi's people lived in tents,  making sails would be no big deal for them. They built the ship onshore and rolled it down on logs, no dry dock needed. Perhaps you should Google Minimalist Regatta and see what can be built with 1sheet of plywood, 2- 2x4-8' and  a rolll of duct tape.

[readstoomuch]

Potter and Wellington`s boat is great.  It looks like they may have stopped and resupplied in their journey.  This gives them food sources, water and a chance to stretch their legs before the long part of the journey.  You can do a search with the words Oman hand built ships photos and can see a large number of modern day boats that have been built that way for centuries.  

[strappinglad]

7 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Lehi would have had to travel over 4 times as far as Columbus or the Vikings and would have had to cross the Pacific rather then the Atlantic...a much more hazardous ocean

All it takes is one storm . The Atlantic is no slouch when it comes to wild weather. The film " A Perfect Storm " wasn't filmed about California. Pretty well all the hurricanes that strike the East coast of the US come from Africa and gain strength as they pass over the Atlantic.

 Though you may be too young, the Kon Tiki adventures established the idea that travel by raft and sail was quite possible from the middle East to the Americas.

Maybe Rodheadlee will chime in as he is our resident sailor. Oh, I see he has posted already.

Edited February 13, 2016 by strappinglad

[Avatar4321]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Hi Johnnie.

Actually, coking ovens and blast furnaces were not needed to make steel tools, and steel had been made regularly in both Palestine and South Arabia (and other parts of the Middle East) from about 1100 BC onward.  One needed iron ore, a clay oven, wood, and bellows (note the bellows in I Nephi 17:11).  From this one developed a bloom of iron which could be worked by a smith into whatever shape was necessary, and quenching and beating were part of the standard process.  Iron ore outcroppings were available locally, as well as in the New World in Oaxaca.

The Lehites did not need nails or metal straps, but likely used rawhide along with tongue and groove construction.  Their tents could be sewn into sails.  They did not need a huge ship, bur rather a large boat or dhow.

Your whole conception of the necessary industries is vastly overblown.

I suspect that is intentional

[sheilauk]

On 2/12/2016 at 5:34 PM, Johnnie Cake said:

I find this an exciting development and one of the most promising opportunities to find evidence of Lehi's party.  I've made a list of the industries that Nephi would have needed, so surely evidence in any one of these areas could be found.

 

Industries needed for Nephi and company to make a Transocean Ship

 

Smelting Ovens /Blast Furness

01.   Charcoal Ovens to make charcoal for fire to make blast Furness since there was no coal for making coke.

02.   Acres of forests to get the wood needed to make the charcoal for blast furnace and wood for the ship

03.   Thousands of Nails, metal strapping, hand tools ie hammers, all’s, saws etc

Question: Where did he get tools to access Iron Ore in the first place?

 

Dry Dock

 

01.   Excavation of earth below water line

02.   Gates that hold water back

03.   Pumps to keep water out

Tanning

01.   Skins needed for bellows

Make a Keel Capable of surviving an Oceanic voyage

01.   Forest with trees suitable for making a keel

02.   Steam to bend the Keel

Resin/Tar

01.   To make the ship water tight

Rope

01.   Hemp

02.   Flax

03.   Animal skin or

04.   Wool

05.   And all the specialized tool to make rope

Sheep Farming

01.   Sheep are needed to produce wool for a Sail. It takes 1 sheep to produce enough wool for 1 square foot of sail . Assuming a  30x30 sail a herd of 900 sheep would be required. If more than 1 sail was produced this would either require multiple years of wool production or more sheep since sheep can only be sheared once per season.

02. Of course a larger ship, like the kind Lehi/Nephi's party would have required would be in need of a much larger sail than a 30x30.  Using the standard boat displacement to sail ratio of 18lbs of displacement to every foot of sail. So a small boat say with a 12,000 lbs displacement would require 650 square feet of sail. A 75,000 lbs ship would require 4,000 sq ft of sail.  A 100 foot ship with a displacement of 150,000 pounds then would require nearly 8,500 feet of sail and even this would be a slow boat....this would require a herd of about 8,500 sheep, plus all of the grazing requirements to feed and sustain.  We know the Lehite party spent many years at Bountiful...but I wonder how many years it would have taken to build up their Sheep herd to 8,500 from their smaller breading herd? This also assumes none of the wool is used to make clothing for other uses. But the good news is that a herd this large would have left behind evidence of their existence for the archeologist to discover.

Clothe-weaving-looms

01.   Needed to create the clothe necessary for make a sail

 

The invention of a Rudder with all of its intricacies (something that wasn’t invented until 200 years after Lehi)

01.   Pullies

02.   Ropes

03.   Gears

Food Preservation Techniques

01.   Pickling

02.   Food drying etc

Water and Food Storage

01.   Men require a minimum of 4 liters of water per day, woman would need 3, assuming a party of 25-30 divided between men and woman there would be a need for or about 100 liters per day. Assuming a 200 day journey this would require 20,000 liters of water stored on the boat.  There are 1,000 liters of water per square meter.  20,000 meters would barely fit in a 10m x 20m holding tank. which is about 33 feet by 65 feet...and that's just for water.  This assumes they use none of it for washing, bathing or cooking.

02.  Once we add additional room for food and humble sleeping quarters...we could have a ship of nearly 100 feet in length, of course water needs could be lowers if we assume Nephi made various landings along the way to replenish a smaller water reserve.

Pottery for food and water storage

 01. Baking ovens to make the pottery

 02. Clay diggings to make the pottery

 

This list is not all inclusive but gives an idea of the magnitude of what these archeologist will find in Bountiful

 

Other things that might be discovered:  waist deposits, animal bones, fire pits, perhaps a grave or 2 in addition to the construction sight.

 

So the good news is that Nephi would have had a huge construction sight in Bountiful...making it almost certain that this archeological dig will be successful...

 

 

Wonder what Gibbs thinks he's doing in NCIS...

Of course, he doesn't need to all of the above but  he has an interesting dry dock!

 

 

Edited February 13, 2016 by sheilauk
spelling!

[rodheadlee]

9 hours ago, strappinglad said:

All it takes is one storm . The Atlantic is no slouch when it comes to wild weather. The film " A Perfect Storm " wasn't filmed about California. Pretty well all the hurricanes that strike the East coast of the US come from Africa and gain strength as they pass over the Atlantic.

 Though you may be too young, the Kon Tiki adventures established the idea that travel by raft and sail was quite possible from the middle East to the Americas.

Maybe Rodheadlee will chime in as he is our resident sailor. Oh, I see he has posted already.

I'll take the Pacific ocean any day over the Atlantic. It's not even close. You can go to a NOAA weathefax site and look at wave period, if the duration is shorter than the wave height you are in for an ugly ride.

[rodheadlee]

Catching rainwater is pretty common to. On our first 26 day passage we only carried 44 gallons of water but we arrived with full tanks.