Robert F. Smith Posted March 19, 2016 Posted March 19, 2016 1 hour ago, PeterPear said: Why are you complaining? LOL! I'm mocking the stupid quote about 50,000 coconuts. I don't believe this fairy-tale speculation. Not complaining, just informing. I thought the 50,000 coconut stuff was nutso, and you can mock anything you want. Of course, one man's fairy faith is another man's deep belief. Sometimes hard to tell the difference between the beliefs of a Peter Pan and a Peter Pear.
rodheadlee Posted March 19, 2016 Posted March 19, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, PeterPear said: Sort of silly the speculation that Nephi sailed through the India and Pacific Oceans to the land of Promise. The shorter route is around Africa into the Atlantic landing on the Eastern coast of or in the Gulf of Mexico of North America. Unless of course you believe Dr. Sorenson who has stated the Maya were not the Nephites, but the Nephites were among the Maya anyway - due to a narrow neck of land. Lehi was promised a land of promise but the Lord's reservation system got garbled due to an electrical blackout and the Maya got the reservation instead. So much for the Lord's failed promises to Lehi, if you believe that, then Nephi sailed east through the strait of Malacca past the isles of Indonesia, avoided Asian land wars that even America could not, then into the Pacific where they finally landed amd lived among the Maya but never became them because they lived the Law of Moses for 600 years while the Maya ran around with parrot feathers in their hair. No sillier than speculating they sailed around the Cape of Good Hope against the winds, currents and seas. Why do think they run the race that direction? Edited March 19, 2016 by rodheadlee 2
Keq82 Posted March 20, 2016 Posted March 20, 2016 What about the overwhelming DNA evidence that shows Native Americans originated from areas in Siberia? http://m.phys.org/news/2012-07-native-american-populations-descend-key.html It seems there is very little (if no evidence) to suggest that the Native Americans originated from areas in the Middle East (e.g., Oman/Yemen). http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/DNA_evidence
Calm Posted March 20, 2016 Posted March 20, 2016 As long as you don't subscribe toa hemispheric, nobody was here model, DNA is not s problem. https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng
Keq82 Posted March 20, 2016 Posted March 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Calm said: As long as you don't subscribe toa hemispheric, nobody was here model, DNA is not s problem. https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng I just don't believe that all of the Lamanite DNA would have simply disappeared, especially when you take into consideration the sizes of the populations that are listed in the BoM. http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/could-lamanite-dna-just-disappear.html?m=1 "The research on Neanderthals and Denisovans clearly illustrates that if ancestors of other ethnic backgrounds are hiding unnoticed in our family trees, traces of their DNA can be found in our genomes; even after tens of thousands of years. It is no longer reasonable to claim that Lamanite DNA cannot be found. The recent advances in whole genome sequencing and analysis have changed the research landscape. Genetic tests are now so sensitive, that it is possible to detect a tiny fraction of a percent of mixed ancestry in a person’s DNA."
Calm Posted March 20, 2016 Posted March 20, 2016 Ugo Perego whose work was human genetic studies helped write the lds.org article and explains very well there, imo, why one might not find DNA we don't even know what it looked like.
cdowis Posted March 20, 2016 Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) 1. Dr. Southerton is a PLANT GENETICIST unlike Dr. Ugo Perego. His current research involves the molecular biology of flowering and wood development in eucalypts http://mormoncurtain.com/topic_simonsoutherton.html His published work in the field was the co-author of a book on wood pulp http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8137.2012.04200.x/abstract Population genetics is outside his field of expertise, but he does speak with expertise in plant genetics 2. When he first published his criticism of the Book of Mormon I corresponded with him. I asked him one very basic question and he is still unable to give a response What were the DNA characteristics of Lehi and his family. He came from the house of Joseph, not Judah, and Joseph's wife was an Egyptian. So what is the basis for the DNA comparison? 3. Here is a presentation on the latest DNA research on this issue by Dr. Ugo Perego. Dr. Perego was a Senior Researcher at the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation (SMGF) and a Scientific Consultant for GeneTree.com, He has received PhD in Genetics and Biomolecular Sciences from the University of Pavia (Pavia, Italy). (see wiki) The presentation is very detailed. https://youtu.be/MlB16Grvb-4 Here is an article from Scientific American regarding research on haplogroup x as found in the Native Americans http://www.pbs.org/saf/1406/features/dna2.htm ...about 3 percent of the Native Americans tested had mtDNA from a different haplogroup, called X. Some populations, such as the Ojibwa from the Great Lakes region, have a high concentration of X - 25 percent. How did haplogroup X get to North America? Some X has been found in Mongolia, but it's definitely not common in modern Asia. It can, however, be found in about 4 percent of the present day European population. Genetic anthropologists suggest that the presence of X in North America points to an early migration westward from Europe...... Scientists have also done some testing on pre-Columbian Native American skeletal remains from before 1300, and found haplogroup X in the same proportion it's present in modern Native American populations. ++++++++++++ The only Eurasian ethnic group possessing a relatively high percentage of haplogroup X are the Druzes of Lebanon, Syria and Israel, among whom X makes up 15% of maternal lineages http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_X_mtDNA.shtml Edited March 20, 2016 by cdowis 2
deandre Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 Disclaimer: I have not read through this entire thread, and perhaps this has been covered. But, I see lots and LOTS of people explaining from the our knowledge of how Nephi could or could not have built his ship and what materials could and could not have been used. That's all fine and good. But, we are ALL hindered from one simple verse in The Book of Mormon at ever being validated in our personal opinions regarding what did and did not happen. It is found in 1 Nephi 18:2, which states: " Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men." So, while attempting to explain this entire topic based "after the manner of men" is intriguing, it is simply an exercise in futility as to reaching an irrefutable conclusion one way or the other until such time we KNOW "the manner which the Lord had shown" unto Nephi. The Lord may well have shown Nephi how to make "workable" what to us is impossible.
clarkgoble Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 On 2/12/2016 at 10:44 AM, ksfisher said: It appears as though the Book of Mormon has failed, even before it gets out of the old world. I'm dubious they'd find anything in Oman and think there's far too little information to say the the Nahom connection is apt. But criticizing Nephi's boat as needing all those things seems a bit demanding. First off the Phoenicians were making boats already and recreations have done pretty impressive sailing routes. Roman ships sometimes used leather rather than wool or linen sails. I'm definitely not saying it's not difficult but it's not impossible. That said if they do find ancient smelting dating to roughly the same era that would be interesting. There are reasons to think Lehi was a metal worker.
clarkgoble Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 10 hours ago, deandre said: Disclaimer: I have not read through this entire thread, and perhaps this has been covered. But, I see lots and LOTS of people explaining from the our knowledge of how Nephi could or could not have built his ship and what materials could and could not have been used. That's all fine and good. But, we are ALL hindered from one simple verse in The Book of Mormon at ever being validated in our personal opinions regarding what did and did not happen. It is found in 1 Nephi 18:2, which states: This is a fair point to note that we shouldn't assume any particular boat type. We should also note that the route through Oman is just a theory with no confirmation despite so weak circumstantial evidence. Literally nothing is said about the construction beyond it being "curious." There's really not a lot to draw a theory from. For all we know the ship wasn't like a Phoenician ship at all despite all the artwork suggesting that. (Well intentioned artwork tend to mislead most people about how much of the narrative transpired)
Thinking Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 On 2/11/2016 at 9:17 PM, Freedom said: I saw this but am not sure of the value. If Lehi and his family were there for at most a few years, and if people have been living there for thousands of years, what hope do they have of finding anything relevant? It would be like someone going to disney world and hoping to find evidence that I visited there in 1992. Or going to Disneyland and trying to find the pearl earring that fell off my wife's ear on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride.
Freedom Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 17 minutes ago, Thinking said: Or going to Disneyland and trying to find the pearl earring that fell off my wife's ear on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride. That is super sad. I am on my way down to start searching. If we find the earring, it will be incontrovertible proof that Nephi was left handed. 1
saemo Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 On 2/11/2016 at 6:49 PM, MDalby said: A team of archaeologists and scholars will be at an Oman site that is proposed to potentially be Nephi’s Bountiful on a dig to find answers to some critical questions about conditions there in 600 BC. http://ldsmag.com/major-announcement-omanis-grant-permission-to-dig-at-nephis-bountiful/ Oh good, when will the same be done for Cumorah in NY state?
TOmNossor Posted February 22, 2017 Posted February 22, 2017 On 3/19/2016 at 9:32 PM, Keq82 said: I just don't believe that all of the Lamanite DNA would have simply disappeared, especially when you take into consideration the sizes of the populations that are listed in the BoM. http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/could-lamanite-dna-just-disappear.html?m=1 "The research on Neanderthals and Denisovans clearly illustrates that if ancestors of other ethnic backgrounds are hiding unnoticed in our family trees, traces of their DNA can be found in our genomes; even after tens of thousands of years. It is no longer reasonable to claim that Lamanite DNA cannot be found. The recent advances in whole genome sequencing and analysis have changed the research landscape. Genetic tests are now so sensitive, that it is possible to detect a tiny fraction of a percent of mixed ancestry in a person’s DNA." I will present this in the way it lines up in my mind. That does not mean this is all correct science or ..., but I have yet to be dissuaded from holding to this view. Southerton claimed soon after his first foray into publishing about human/Lamanite DNA, “In 600 BC there were probably several million American Indians living in the Americas. If a small group of Israelites entered such a massive native population it would be very, very hard to detect their genes 200, 2000 or even 20,000 years later. But does such a scenario fit with what the Book of Mormon plainly states or what the prophets have taught for 175 years? Short answer. No! Long answer. Nooo!” This or a similar quote was on Signature Books website, but was removed as I recall. For quite some time Southerton’s response to the view that Lehi’s population was inserted into a large Mesoamerican population was “cannot be, does not align with the BOM.” It was long before DNA that I had come to the conclusion that the BOM must be about a group who moved into an existing population. Brant Gardner’s discussion on ZLMB were important for me. So, I was not excited by Southerton. Over the course of many years Southerton now claims that his original statement was true at the time, but that DNA research has changed and is not true now (and that the BOM does not support the view I hold EITHER). I am not a DNA scientist, but aside for very specific markers associated with male or female DNA, it would seem to me that descendant-cy would require a very specific understanding of what the paternal nuclear DNA for which you are searching. Having this, I understand that the chance of find a 1 in 1000 member of a population today would be roughly 1 in 1000 (neglecting genocide and other such thing we see in the BOM). So, if you did a detailed analysis of a large number of folks 500-5000 AND you knew what you were looking for, you would find them (again baring phenomenally poor luck or effective genocidal behavior in the history of said populations). I have yet to see Southerton claim that sufficient DNA studies have been done outside the Mitochondrial DNA lines to demonstrate that the 1 in 1000 population didn’t exist. All Southerton now claims as best I can tell is that the ability to detect nuclear DNA (rather than just Mitochondrial DNA) makes hiding Lehites in large populations unlikely. Notable he does not claim that sufficient nuclear DNA studies have been done to demonstrate the absence of Lehites, just that unlike when he first spoke it is possible and somewhat cost effective. Add to this, I have yet to see Southerton address the nuclear DNA markers that he must know about so he can detect them in the detailed DNA studies (aside from some Halotypes common in Jewish populations on Mitochondrial DNA, what is Lehi’s DNA look like?). And if he did, the genocidal behavior of Book of Mormon people AND Mesoamerican’s would still present challenges. DNA is not now and never has been an issue for me. The presence of Nahom is now and long has been a positive for me. Though I am unsure if any absence of anything at the Bountiful site could cause stress. In other words, there will be no, “Nephi was not here sign.” The origins of the BOA on the other hand … Charity, TOm
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