Revelation to the Apostles

[CV75]

13 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

This is exactly the same type of practice most Mormons decry when practiced in the public schools.

And with good reason.

P.S. AGAIN FOR SOME REASON I AM NO LONGER ALLOWED TO MAKE COMMENTS.  I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS A SOFTWARE PROBLEM OR WHAT.  BUT I WANT BOARD MEMBERS TO KNOW I CANNOT RESPOND TO ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS THEY MAKE.  AT LEAST NOT AT THIS TIME.

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I can't give you any rep points either, for some reason. 

Me neither. The upvote button shows for everyone but consiglieri

[CV75]

17 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

This is exactly the same type of practice most Mormons decry when practiced in the public schools.

And with good reason.

P.S. AGAIN FOR SOME REASON I AM NO LONGER ALLOWED TO MAKE COMMENTS.  I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS A SOFTWARE PROBLEM OR WHAT.  BUT I WANT BOARD MEMBERS TO KNOW I CANNOT RESPOND TO ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS THEY MAKE.  AT LEAST NOT AT THIS TIME.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THE NEXT 5 MINUTES IF YOU'VE SECRETLY  AGREED WITH EVERYTHING I'VE EVER SAID TO YOU ON THIS BOARD

[Rain]

17 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Whose not keeping the Sabbath day holy?  It seems to have been mastered by many.  Why not expect revelation on weightier matters for those who have so mastered?  Hold them back because others make different choices. 

For several months before last spring conference I started thinking about how I and my family we were not keeping it holy. Oh, we didn't do many of the things people always talk about like playing sports or shopping etc, but we really weren't keeping it holy either. So when it was mentioned in cofetence it really spoke to me - and yet I still don't do it well.

One of the things I hear over and over from women who have left the church is that Sunday was not a day to look forward to. That's interesting to me because the more I try to make it a holy day the more I look forward to it, so I see this connection with it and keeping testimonies strong. 

So perhaps the apostles and prophets were concerned over the members and their testimonies and prayed. And the Lord told them, "teach them to keep the Sabbath holy." It's happened to me with my children, though far more often I get confirmation. I don't know why it wouldn't happen with them. 

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

Me neither. The upvote button shows for everyone but consiglieri

You mean you can rep yourself?  Well, no wonder you're so highly regarded.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

For several months before last spring conference I started thinking about how I and my family we were not keeping it holy. Oh, we didn't do many of the things people always talk about like playing sports or shopping etc, but we really weren't keeping it holy either. So when it was mentioned in cofetence it really spoke to me - and yet I still don't do it well.

One of the things I hear over and over from women who have left the church is that Sunday was not a day to look forward to. That's interesting to me because the more I try to make it a holy day the more I look forward to it, so I see this connection with it and keeping testimonies strong. 

So perhaps the apostles and prophets were concerned over the members and their testimonies and prayed. And the Lord told them, "teach them to keep the Sabbath holy." It's happened to me with my children, though far more often I get confirmation. I don't know why it wouldn't happen with them. 

Thanks for sharing.  That's cool.  I'm curious if it tends to be one of those things that are never kept to perfection, so it's easy to bring up as an emphasis to speak to certain people now and then. 

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

You mean you can rep yourself?  Well, no wonder you're so highly regarded.

Ha! You've discovered my secret. I'm a legend in my own mind. 

[smac97]

5 hours ago, consiglieri said:

Anybody who believes the recent policy change was the result of revelation knows not Jesus nor that God who sent him.

Well, I already quoted Isaiah 5:20 once, but a second time can't hurt: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Christ spoke comforting and gentle truths.  That is so.  But he also spoke plain truths which some could not or would not accept.  As He said in Mathew 10:34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."  Let us also consider John 6:65-68:

Quote

 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Again, teaching hard truths is a difficult, but apparently necessary, component of the prophetic calling.  Consider the situation faced by Jacob in Jacob 2, as summarized in this 1992 Ensign article:

Quote

Jacob’s sensitivity is never more tenderly expressed than in his denunciation of sexual immorality. While he warns of the dire consequences of fornication and adultery (see Jacob 2:27–33; Jacob 3:12), he is mostly concerned with the sufferings of the victims. He declares that the Lord has “seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning … [and] the cries of the fair daughters.” He chastises those who have caused such sorrow, saying: “Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives … ; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God. … Many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.” (Jacob 2:31–35.)

Expressions such as these reveal Jacob as one attuned to sorrow and suffering. His sometimes somber expressions may seem at odds with the spirit of optimism that so permeates modern society, but they fit in perfectly with the tradition of Old Testament prophets from which he came.

Characteristic of Jacob is his discomfort with confrontational speech. Revealing his sensitivity to suffering, he consistently apologizes for the necessary harshness of his words. Jacob often emphasizes that he would rather comfort and console than chastise and rebuke.  But, he explains, he has received his “errand from the Lord” (Jacob 1:17) and must speak strongly, as an ordained priest and teacher, because he is “desirous for the welfare of your souls.” (2 Ne. 5:26; 2 Ne. 6:2–3.) He would rather speak of holiness, “but as ye are not holy, and ye look upon me as a teacher, … I teach you the consequences of sin.” (2 Ne. 9:48.) Repeatedly, he stresses that he is preaching hard truths in order to rid his garments of his people’s sins. (See 2 Ne. 9:40, 44; Jacob 1:18–19; Jacob 2:2.)

I think President Monson and the other General Authorities of today are facing a similar necessity to address sexual immorality, including how it intersects with a distortion of marriage.  But where Jacob was facing sexual immorality arising out of the concept of marriage being corrupted and debased by unauthorized and wicked polygamy, the Brethren today are facing sexual immorality arising out of out of the concept of marriage being corrupted and debased by it being radically re-defined to include same-sex relationships.

Jacob explained that he had received his “errand from the Lord” (Jacob 1:17).  A similar "errand" has been given to the Brethren (as explained by Elder Nelson).

Jacob was required to "speak strongly" because he was “desirous for the welfare of your souls.”  I believe the Brethren have spoken out of the same concern.

Jacob was required to teach about "the consequences of sin" to those who "are not holy."  I believe the Brethren have had to do likewise.

Again, the Brethren are good and decent and righteous men.  I believe they are led by revelation, including at times revelation that is not going to be popular in the eyes of The World.  As Latter-day Saints we need to accept that reality.  If we, through personal revelation and faith, choose to accept truths revealed to the Church through the Presiding High Priest, we will be blessed in many ways, not the least of which is that we will avoid the harrowing plight of those who fail to do so:

Quote

17 They were once a delightsome people, and they had Christ for their shepherd; yea, they were led even by God the Father.

18 But now, behold, they are led about by Satan, even as chaff is driven before the wind, or as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves, without sail or anchor, or without anything wherewith to steer her; and even as she is, so are they.

I am grateful for revelation, both that which is available to me and to the Church as a whole through the Presiding High Priest.  I am also grateful that President Monson and the Brethren who serve with him are fulfilling their mandates and speaking truths that, while not popular, will see us through difficult times if we accept prophetic counsel.  To continue with the "anchor" metaphor above, i will close with Ether 12:2-4:

Quote

2 And Ether was a prophet of the Lord; wherefore Ether came forth in the days of Coriantumr, and began to prophesy unto the people, for he could not be restrained because of the Spirit of the Lord which was in him.

3 For he did cry from the morning, even until the going down of the sun, exhorting the people to believe in God unto repentance lest they should be destroyed, saying unto them that by faith all things are fulfilled—

4 Wherefore, whoso believeth in God might with surety hope for a better world, yea, even a place at the right hand of God, which hope cometh of faith, maketh an anchor to the souls of men, which would make them sure and steadfast, always abounding in good works, being led to glorify God.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited February 12, 2016 by smac97

[ALarson]

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I can't give you any rep points either, for some reason. 

He's on "limited" status, could that be why? 

[JLHPROF]

30 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

This is exactly the same type of practice most Mormons decry when practiced in the public schools.

And with good reason.

 

P.S. AGAIN FOR SOME REASON I AM NO LONGER ALLOWED TO MAKE COMMENTS.  I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS A SOFTWARE PROBLEM OR WHAT.  BUT I WANT BOARD MEMBERS TO KNOW I CANNOT RESPOND TO ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS THEY MAKE.  AT LEAST NOT AT THIS TIME.

Looks like you are back on limited status.  (Only a few posts per day).

[mfbukowski]

20 hours ago, Ahab said:

First time I've heard about this.

What, exactly, came as a direct revelation to them from the Lord? What did he say, exactly,  or exactly what impression did he give them about Sabbath day observance?  That it's a good thing to do? That they need to do better at observing it? That we do? That we all do? That they or we don't understand enough about how to do it better? Did he give any helpful ideas about how to do it better or some more specifics about how to do it right?

Detail, details,  details.  I want more details please.

Or am I expected to commune with the Lord some more about this myself? Did he say?

Ask your stake president

There is an entire course of study you are supposed to be receiving at least at the ward council level, and in 5th sunday meetings.  If you are not hearing about it, you should be.

You can look the stuff up on lds.org

[Rain]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Thanks for sharing.  That's cool.  I'm curious if it tends to be one of those things that are never kept to perfection, so it's easy to bring up as an emphasis to speak to certain people now and then. 

Could be. For me it really wasn't a perfection thing. It was attiude. I looked at it more as a do nothing day rather than a holy day. 

[mfbukowski]

20 hours ago, will227457 said:

I think that's what happens when people talk to themselves

So please define for us all the difference.

Could it be that God is inside you?  Maybe like the scriptures say?

Could it be that looking outside yourself is the wrong place to look?

Edited February 12, 2016 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

42 minutes ago, smac97 said:

CFR regarding a material distinction between "inspiration" and "revelation."  I'm not seeing it.

Anything from the Sciptures or published statements by General Authorities will do.

Thanks,

-Smac

Don't have time to do a bunch of digging - will dig up some quotes later.

But for now:

Do we accept the difference between the Holy Ghost and the Light/Spirit of Christ, both of which may provide guidance from God?

• “Every man can receive a manifestation of the Holy Ghost, even when he is out of the Church, if he is earnestly seeking for the light and for the truth. The Holy Ghost will come and give the man the testimony he is seeking, and then withdraw; and the man does not have a claim upon another visit or constant visits and manifestations from him. He may have the constant guidance of that other Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.”- Joseph Fielding Smith

And do we accept there is a difference between standard prayer and temple prayer in our ability to reach God?

So if there are degrees and differences of communication with God in both directions, with varying magnitude and authority, why would we not believe the same concerning the methods?

 

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

Could be. For me it really wasn't a perfection thing. It was attiude. I looked at it more as a do nothing day rather than a holy day. 

Nobody follows the law to perfection and we all fail for some reason or another--attitude is probably a big one.

[smac97]

28 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Don't have time to do a bunch of digging - will dig up some quotes later.

But for now:

Do we accept the difference between the Holy Ghost and the Light/Spirit of Christ, both of which may provide guidance from God?

• “Every man can receive a manifestation of the Holy Ghost, even when he is out of the Church, if he is earnestly seeking for the light and for the truth. The Holy Ghost will come and give the man the testimony he is seeking, and then withdraw; and the man does not have a claim upon another visit or constant visits and manifestations from him. He may have the constant guidance of that other Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.”- Joseph Fielding Smith

And do we accept there is a difference between standard prayer and temple prayer in our ability to reach God?

So if there are degrees and differences of communication with God in both directions, with varying magnitude and authority, why would we not believe the same concerning the methods?

You seem to be speaking of differences in degree, not kind.  If I understand you correctly, you are proposing that "inspiration" is a lesser form of communication with God, while "revelation" is a greater form.  Is that an accurate statement of your position?

Or are you equating "inspiration" with the Light of Christ, and "revelation" with communications through the Holy Spirit?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 12, 2016 by smac97

[ERMD]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

So now "revelation" is so watered-down in the LDS Church that it means a decision to focus on better keeping a commandment that has been around for thousands of years?

Your response, Glenn, is precisely the desired impact this claim is supposed to have.

President Nelson stirred up controversy by claiming a two-month old leaked policy was actually revelation.

The obvious response to the controversy is to claim that things entirely uncontroversial are likewise the result of revelation.

President Nelson understood that in his talk and gave the example of lowering the missionary age, which was now claimed for the first time to be a "revelation."

Elder Christofferson continues this tactic by announcing so pedestrian a decision as focusing on Sabbath day observance was a "revelation."

The goal seems to be to claim so many uncontroversial things are "revelation" as to soften the controversy surrounding the "revelation" claimed by President Nelson for the new policy.

And based on your response, Glenn, this maneuver is having the desired effect.

Something so pedestrian...

Naaman comes to mind.

[ERMD]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Not the same thing.  A voice, whether still and small or loud and booming is still the voice of the Lord.
Men's feelings are not the voice of the Lord.

  Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder.

Edited February 12, 2016 by ERMD

[JLHPROF]

39 minutes ago, smac97 said:

You seem to be speaking of differences in degree, not kind.  If I understand you correctly, you are proposing that "inspiration" is a lesser form of communication with God, while "revelation" is a greater form.  Is that an accurate statement of your position?

Basically.  And not just degree but magnitude and as a result to a lesser extent, reliability against human mistake and ability to be certain.

Quote

Or are you equating "inspiration" with the Light of Christ, and "revelation" with communications through the Holy Spirit?

As a generality (not case specific) I would agree with that.
The Holy Ghost provides both inspiration and revelation - no effect other than pure intelligence according to Joseph Smith. 
The Light of Christ provides only inspiration (right choice/wrong choice kind of thing - conscience it has been compared to).

So for lack of better phrasing coming to mind:
Light of Christ - basic inspiration (anyone can receive)
Holy Ghost - revelation OR inspiration (gift of the Holy Ghost required)
Word of God/Christ - direct revelation, God's actual instructions and commandments, not just promptings, and much less open to interpretation.

...Not sure I'm explaining myself clearly or phrasing correctly, but I think you get the idea.  Please excuse any jumbled message here.

 

[smac97]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Basically.  And not just degree but magnitude and as a result to a lesser extent, reliability against human mistake and ability to be certain.

As a generality (not case specific) I would agree with that.
The Holy Ghost provides both inspiration and revelation - no effect other than pure intelligence according to Joseph Smith. 
The Light of Christ provides only inspiration (right choice/wrong choice kind of thing - conscience it has been compared to).

So for lack of better phrasing coming to mind:
Light of Christ - basic inspiration (anyone can receive)
Holy Ghost - revelation OR inspiration (gift of the Holy Ghost required)
Word of God/Christ - direct revelation, God's actual instructions and commandments, not just promptings, and much less open to interpretation.

...Not sure I'm explaining myself clearly or phrasing correctly, but I think you get the idea.  Please excuse any jumbled message here.

I think I understand your position.  Now I would like to understand its provenance.  Where did you come up with these distinctions?  I think I understand the distinction between the Light of Christ and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  But I don't get the "revelation OR inspiration" thing.  Where did you get that?  Which scriptures, and which statements by General Authorities, define or support this distinction?

The same goes with the distinction between "Gift of the Holy Ghost" and "Word of God/Christ - direct revelation, God's actual instructions and commandments, not just promptings."  Where are you getting this information?

Thanks,

-Smac

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think I understand your position.  Now I would like to understand its provenance.  Where did you come up with these distinctions?  I think I understand the distinction between the Light of Christ and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  But I don't get the "revelation OR inspiration" thing.  Where did you get that?  Which scriptures, and which statements by General Authorities, define or support this distinction?

The same goes with the distinction between "Gift of the Holy Ghost" and "Word of God/Christ - direct revelation, God's actual instructions and commandments, not just promptings."  Where are you getting this information?

Thanks,

-Smac

As I said, I'm at work and can't research GA quotes right now.

But as for " the distinction between "Gift of the Holy Ghost" and "Word of God/Christ - direct revelation, God's actual instructions and commandments, not just promptings."
The distinction should be obvious.  Who is speaking to you?  The Holy Ghost or Christ himself.
Let's look at the D&C

D&C 52:44 - Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and I will lift them up at the last day. Even so. Amen.
D&C 66:13 - Verily, thus saith the Lord your God, your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ. Amen.
D&C 81:7 - Behold, and lo, these are the words of Alpha and Omega, even Jesus Christ. Amen.

And the issue isn't the magical wording "Thus Saith The Lord" as so many foolish people insist upon.  The issue is the identified source of the revelation.
Did you realize that in the D&C all but around a dozen sections positively identify Christ or the Lord as the person giving the words?  Not the Holy Ghost.  Not the spirit of God.  Not the inspired direction of the prophet.  Christ himself telling the receiver what to do.

Even Christ recognizes the difference -

D&C 6: 21 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I am the same that came unto mine own, and mine own received me not. I am the light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.
22 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

Here is D&C 6 Christ speaking directly (revelation) refers Oliver to the witness previously received by the Holy Ghost.  Clear examples.

When was the last time we had record of the words of Christ himself coming through his prophet?
So yes, "Light of Christ", "Holy Ghost", "Word of the Lord".

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Well, I already quoted Isaiah 5:20 once, but a second time can't hurt: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"

Christ spoke comforting and gentle truths.  That is so.  But he also spoke plain truths which some could not or would not accept.  Let us consider John 6:65-68:

Again, teaching hard truths is a difficult, but apparently necessary, component of the prophetic calling.  Consider the situation faced by Jacob in Jacob 2, as summarized in this 1992 Ensign article:

I think President Monson and the other General Authorities of today are facing a similar necessity to address sexual immorality, including how it intersects with a distortion of marriage.  But where Jacob was facing sexual immorality arising out of the concept of marriage being corrupted and debased by unauthorized and wicked polygamy, the Brethren today are facing sexual immorality arising out of out of the concept of marriage being corrupted and debased by it being radically re-defined to include same-sex relationships.

Jacob explained that he had received his “errand from the Lord” (Jacob 1:17).  A similar "errand" has been given to the Brethren (as explained by Elder Nelson).

Jacob was required to "speak strongly" because he was “desirous for the welfare of your souls.”  I believe the Brethren have spoken out of the same concern.

Jacob was required to teach about "the consequences of sin" to those who "are not holy."  I believe the Brethren have had to do likewise.

Again, the Brethren are good and decent and righteous men.  I believe they are led by revelation, including at times revelation that is not going to be popular in the eyes of The World.  As Latter-day Saints we need to accept that reality.  If we, through personal revelation and faith, choose to accept truths revealed to the Church through the Presiding High Priest, we will be blessed in many ways, not the least of which is that we will avoid the harrowing plight of those who fail to do so:

I am grateful for revelation, both that which is available to me and to the Church as a whole through the Presiding High Priest.  I am also grateful that President Monson and the Brethren who serve with him are fulfilling their mandates and speaking truths that, while not popular, will see us through difficult times if we accept that.  To continue with the "anchor" metaphor above, i will close with Ether 12:2-4:

Thanks,

-Smac

 

This is one instance when the mere awarding of a single rep point is not enough. Bravo!

There could be no clearer fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah than consig's foolish post. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

The leaders of the LDS Church have proven that the heavens are closed to them and they receive no more revelation.

Their recent politically motivated claims notwithstanding.

Yes, it does sound familiar.

And history is repeating itself.

I will let Kermit answer this:

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, consiglieri said:

 

P.S. AGAIN FOR SOME REASON I AM NO LONGER ALLOWED TO MAKE COMMENTS.  I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS A SOFTWARE PROBLEM OR WHAT.  BUT I WANT BOARD MEMBERS TO KNOW I CANNOT RESPOND TO ANY QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS THEY MAKE.  AT LEAST NOT AT THIS TIME.

You are in the limited member group.  Prior to the upgrade I believe that allowed for 12 post a day.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

When was the last time we had record of the words of Christ himself coming through his prophet?
So yes, "Light of Christ", "Holy Ghost", "Word of the Lord".

So we have the ministrations of the Light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, the Gifts of the Spirit and the Personal Presence of the Lord all within the context of the Prophet receiving divine inspiration and divine revelation. While revelation presents knowledge to his heart and mind, inspiration quickens his understanding of it.

D&C 138 is a good example. Verse 11 begins the presentation of the information (“the eyes of my understanding were opened… and I saw“) by the Spirit of the Lord. This is revelation. Verse 29 shows the additional quickening of the understanding, which is a function of the Light of Christ (D&C 88:11), where perception is enhanced. Rather than being an inferior form of divine intelligence, the Light of Christ has a significant role in a “fullness” of revelation.

The Light of Christ leads us to Christ—that is one type of revelation. The Holy Ghost confirms that we have found Him—that is another type of revelation. The Lord directs His servants what to do and say—that is yet another type of revelation (see verse 60, “…I bear record, and I know that this record is true…”) In both cases, the policy and the emphasis on keeping the Sabbath Day holy are the result of revelation in this third sense.

As far as having a record each and every time the words of Christ Himself comes through His prophet, I think it is too routine to expect such publications: “The leader of this Church is our Lord Jesus Christ. He is a very involved leader and is personally active in guiding His Church.” —Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve. He has been quoted as saying this same thing in a number of settings.

https://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-christofferson-counsels-members-to-rely-on-the-lord?lang=eng