JLHPROF Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said: "John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." I always found this a curious wording. It doesn't say "without him was not anything made," which is what Savedwheat is saying it says. It says "without him was not anything made that was made." There is a strong implication here that there are some things that were not created, otherwise there would be no qualifier. Essentially, it says, "if there's something that was created, it was created by Christ" leaving wide open the possibility that there are things that are were never created (time, space, intelligence?) and therefore Christ would have no role in bringing about. Ooh, I like that. Never noticed that before.
savedwheat Posted January 28, 2016 Author Posted January 28, 2016 Don't ask me why this afternoon I can not reply to threads when I couldn't last night, because I have no idea. I still can't post new threads. Your Joseph Smith no interpretation at all theory is just shutting your mind down and assuming two people are really talking about the same thing. As you know Joseph Smith altered the meaning of all things Christianity. if anyone didn't understand the Bible it was Joseph Smith for he taught that people always existed, and that is the greatest heresy of all. God alone was from everlasting. The 3 monotheistic faiths were Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Notice your cult was not mentioned. . When a person is born-again, remember Jesus said you have to be born-again, by believing in Him, the spirit is regenerated, eternal life is give and the Holy Spirit indwells. So when the Spirit comes upon a person vs. in the indwelling of the Spirit realize they are not the same thing. What commandment must you keep to be save, to receive the new birth? That Jesus is God, created all things, resurrected the 3rd day, died for sins. Otherwise you worship a false Christ. Notice it does not say you have to keep His commands to keep saved, for John 10.28 says those who are born-again "they shall never perish". You're misinterpreting Scripture on every point.
savedwheat Posted January 28, 2016 Author Posted January 28, 2016 25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Ooh, I like that. Never noticed that before. "For in him all things were created" (Col 1.16) and "All things were made by him" (John 1.3). Everything was made by God except God is the point. Since you reject this God you are going to Hell.
Stormin' Mormon Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, savedwheat said: "For in him all things were created" (Col 1.16) and "All things were made by him" (John 1.3). Everything was made by God except God is the point. Since you reject this God you are going to Hell. Really? That's all it takes to be sent to Hell? I can throw myself daily upon the mercy of Christ, begging him forgiveness for my sins, I can love my family and serve in my community, I can raise my children to love the scriptures and to seek to do good to all men, but because I have the wrong philosophical conception of God, I'll spend eternity with rapists, murderers, and child molesters? Yeah, thanks, but no thanks.
savedwheat Posted January 28, 2016 Author Posted January 28, 2016 None means none. None beside God. He alone was from everlasting. Jesus created all things. Nothing exists that exists without Jesus having crated it. So don't bring down Jesus to your level because that lesser Jesus can never atone for your sins. Better you be warned now.
savedwheat Posted January 28, 2016 Author Posted January 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said: Really? That's all it takes to be sent to Hell? I can throw myself daily upon the mercy of Christ, begging him forgiveness for my sins, I can love my family and serve in my community, I can raise my children to love the scriptures and to seek to do good to all men, but because I have the wrong philosophical conception of God, I'll spend eternity with rapists, murderers, and child molesters? Yeah, thanks, but no thanks. You worship a false Christ. Forever you will reject the God who was alone from everlasting, Jesus who created all things, none beside God, no gods, nothing. Very simple even a child can understand. Bible is clear salvation is not by works lest any man should boast. Work all you like but it won't save you one iota. Your spirit needs to be regenerated so unless you are a new creation of God you will die in your sins. This is crucial for unless you have eternal life, you have eternal perdition. Instead of the Holy Spirit in your spirit, the evil spirit remains in your spirit.
JLHPROF Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, savedwheat said: I still can't post new threads. Because you are on limited status. Reply only, no new threads. Your Joseph Smith no interpretation at all theory is just shutting your mind down and assuming two people are really talking about the same thing. As you know Joseph Smith altered the meaning of all things Christianity. if anyone didn't understand the Bible it was Joseph Smith for he taught that people always existed, and that is the greatest heresy of all. No, Joseph Smith put Christianity back to its original form after 1500 years of alterations, adjustments, creeds, and wicked men. God alone was from everlasting. The 3 monotheistic faiths were Christianity, Islam and Judaism. Notice your cult was not mentioned. . Sure it is. It's included in Christianity. It's the only true Christianity after all. When a person is born-again, remember Jesus said you have to be born-again, by believing in Him, the spirit is regenerated, eternal life is give and the Holy Spirit indwells. So when the Spirit comes upon a person vs. in the indwelling of the Spirit realize they are not the same thing. What commandment must you keep to be save, to receive the new birth? That Jesus is God, created all things, resurrected the 3rd day, died for sins. Otherwise you worship a false Christ. Notice it does not say you have to keep His commands to keep saved, for John 10.28 says those who are born-again "they shall never perish". And Christ says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" So, what work do we have to do as part of the Father's will to enter into the Kingdom. Clearly accepting Christ isn't enough. You're misinterpreting Scripture on every point. And as usual, you are ignoring the ones you don't like.
JAHS Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, savedwheat said: You worship a false Christ. Forever you will reject the God who was alone from everlasting, Jesus who created all things, none beside God, no gods, nothing. Very simple even a child can understand. Bible is clear salvation is not by works lest any man should boast. Work all you like but it won't save you one iota. Your spirit needs to be regenerated so unless you are a new creation of God you will die in your sins. This is crucial for unless you have eternal life, you have eternal perdition. Instead of the Holy Spirit in your spirit, the evil spirit remains in your spirit. You say the same things over and over with no explanations for some scriptures that contradict what you say. 1
savedwheat Posted January 28, 2016 Author Posted January 28, 2016 You're missing a point. For a good part of the day I can't even reply to posts. I am glad you can't show anything specific that Smith restored. The Bible versions we have today are the same as the earliest versions. Christianity did not need some cult 18 centuries to come alone that is not Monotheistic. Lord, Lord is referring to Christians, for though all Christians are saved and have eternal life, not all will return with Christ to reign in the kingdom of heaven in the millennial reign. Even if Lord, Lord meant some saved some not, it only shows they worshipped a false Christ so salvation is still not by works.
JLHPROF Posted January 28, 2016 Posted January 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, savedwheat said: The Bible versions we have today are the same as the earliest versions. Nah, not even close. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/NIV/300_changes.htm http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/10/22/who-changed-the-bible-and-why-bart-ehrmans-startling-answers/ http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2011/03/changes_to_the_bible_through_the_ages_are_being_studied_by_new_orleans_scholars.html The Bible has been changed from the original MANY times. 1
Jim Stiles Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 10 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Space (location, not outer space) and time are not "things". I certainly don't worship them. If we can say God created everything (which is correct) there was a before he did it and an after - therefore time. And God created nothing out of nothing. God formed things. God is immutable, therefore outside of time. Quote James 1:17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Mal. 3:6. For I am the LORD , I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. God created everything out of nothing. Quote Ps. 33:6. By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. Heb. 11:3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Col. 1:16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. Acts 17:24. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands.
The Nehor Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 1 hour ago, savedwheat said: You're missing a point. For a good part of the day I can't even reply to posts. It is because you are on limited. You get a limited number of replies. The mods restricted you because you were spamming so many threads, many on the same topic. I am glad you can't show anything specific that Smith restored. The Bible versions we have today are the same as the earliest versions. He restored the Priesthood Authority given to the apostles to act and speak in the name of God. You definitely lost that. Christianity did not need some cult 18 centuries to come alone that is not Monotheistic. It also did not need your silly little apostate cult that latches on to the made-up after the fact "salvation by grace" doctrine that did not show up until a millenia after Christ. We have a lot of things we do not need. Lord, Lord is referring to Christians, for though all Christians are saved and have eternal life, not all will return with Christ to reign in the kingdom of heaven in the millennial reign. Even if Lord, Lord meant some saved some not, it only shows they worshipped a false Christ so salvation is still not by works. It is funny how these passages never actually say this and the Lord and the writers of the epistles do not take pains to distinguish them. It is almost as if a bunch of crank Christians made them up because they were bored while reading the Bible one day. I take it you are still not interested in my proposal?
Jim Stiles Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 On 1/27/2016 at 10:22 AM, Zakuska said: The Church didn't disappear for 1800 years. It died and went to heaven when the last Apostle died. Only to be resurrected and brought back to the earth by Holy Angels just like God said it would be. Ask yourself this question... if the earth had the gospel and the power of the priesthood... why does an angel have to come back from heaven with it to preach if men already had it in the Bible? Rev 14 6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlastinggospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship himthat made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. A better question to ask would be why the Apostle John did not use his Melchizedek priesthood to baptize new believers and re-form the church after it had been lost?
Jim Stiles Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Nah, not even close. http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/NIV/300_changes.htm http://dangerousintersection.org/2006/10/22/who-changed-the-bible-and-why-bart-ehrmans-startling-answers/ http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2011/03/changes_to_the_bible_through_the_ages_are_being_studied_by_new_orleans_scholars.html The Bible has been changed from the original MANY times. While you are talking to Bart Ehrman, why don't you ask him what he thinks of the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon?
Jim Stiles Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 10 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Nobody does. That's why there's an atonement to make up for our inability. Christ still requires us to give our best - scripture is full of instruction to do so. Nothing in the Bible says anything remotely like 2 Nephi 25:23. Quote 2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
Calm Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, savedwheat said: Don't ask me why this afternoon I can not reply to threads when I couldn't last night, because I have no idea. I still can't post new threads. You have been put in the Limited group, probably one reason is for starting too many threads. That is a common reason for being Limited. This means you can only post 12 posts a day so if you've run out of posts you have to wait awhile before posting again. You may also be banned from posting in certain threads. This will allow you to post in others, but for whatever reason (sometimes explained, sometimes not, look for red writing in your posts from mods) you said something that mods felt required you not being able to say more about it in that thread. Mods also do temporary bannings of the whole board for a day or longer (during which time it is a good idea to go back to the guidelines and read them to see what to avoid). That might have occurred as well. add-on: I see that a couple of other people have answered you on this as well. Hopefully you understand how the mechanics work now. Edited January 29, 2016 by Calm 1
Damien the Leper Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 A lesson in Ancient Canaan is in order, apparently. The Trinitarian model of God is A later interpretation not held by the first century Jesus followers. 1
Damien the Leper Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 I'd like to talk to Mark S. Smith about the Book of Abraham. 2
Anakin7 Posted January 29, 2016 Posted January 29, 2016 20 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Nothing in the Bible says anything remotely like 2 Nephi 25:23. Check context to see what "all we can do" means. And there are verses in Holy writ that agree with 2.Nephi 25:23. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
Jim Stiles Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 6 hours ago, Valentinus said: A lesson in Ancient Canaan is in order, apparently. The Trinitarian model of God is A later interpretation not held by the first century Jesus followers. Says who? The actual word Trinity was first used by Tertullian. Formal Trinitarian Greetings were used in 1st century church worship.
Jim Stiles Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 3 hours ago, Anakin7 said: Check context to see what "all we can do" means. And there are verses in Holy writ that agree with 2.Nephi 25:23. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 "After all we can do" means what a reasonably educated 19th century man would have thought it meant. It did not mean what FAIR or FARMS says it meant. If Joseph Smith Jr. was thinking of another meaning, then he would have used different words.
Jim Stiles Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 On 1/28/2016 at 6:04 PM, Stormin' Mormon said: Really? That's all it takes to be sent to Hell? I can throw myself daily upon the mercy of Christ, begging him forgiveness for my sins, I can love my family and serve in my community, I can raise my children to love the scriptures and to seek to do good to all men, but because I have the wrong philosophical conception of God, I'll spend eternity with rapists, murderers, and child molesters? Yeah, thanks, but no thanks. Savedwheat and myself do what we do, not because we are mean, but because: We think we are right. The consequences of being wrong are deadly (separation from God and good things for eternity).
Jim Stiles Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 15 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: Says who? The actual word Trinity was first used by Tertullian. Formal Trinitarian Greetings were used in 1st century church worship. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm Quote Proof of the doctrine from tradition The Church Fathers In this section we shall show that the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity has from the earliest times been taught by the Catholic Churchand professed by her members. As none deny this for any period subsequent to the Arian and Macedonian controversies, it will be sufficient if we here consider the faith of the first four centuries only. An argument of very great weight is provided in the liturgicalforms of the Church. The highest probative force must necessarily attach to these, since they express not the private opinion of a single individual, but the public belief of the whole body of the faithful. Nor can it be objected that the notions of Christians on the subject were vague and confused, and that their liturgical forms reflect this frame of mind. On such a point vagueness was impossible. Any Christian might be called on to seal with his blood his belief that there is but One God. The answer of Saint Maximus(c. A.D. 250) to the command of the proconsul that he should sacrifice to the gods, "I offer no sacrifice save to the One True God," is typical of many such replies in the Acts of the martyrs. It is out of the question to suppose that men who were prepared to give their lives on behalf of this fundamental truth were in point of fact in so great confusion in regard to it that they were unaware whether their creed was monotheistic, ditheistic, or tritheistic. Moreover, we know that their instruction regarding the doctrines of their religionwas solid. The writers of that age bear witness that even the unlettered were thoroughly familiar with the truths of faith (cf. Justin,First Apology 60; Irenaeus, Against Heresies III.4.2). (1) Baptismal formulas We may notice first the baptismal formula, which all acknowledge to be primitive. It has already been shown that the words as prescribed by Christ (Matthew 28:19) clearly express the Godhead of the Three Persons as well as their distinction, but another consideration may here be added. Baptism, with its formal renunciation of Satan and his works, was understood to be the rejection of the idolatry of paganism and the solemn consecration of the baptised to the one true God (Tertullian, De Spectaculis 4; Justin, First Apology 4). The act of consecration was the invocation over them of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The supposition that they regarded the Second and Third Persons as created beings, and were in fact consecrating themselves to the service of creatures, is manifestly absurd. St. Hippolytus has expressed the faith of the Church in the clearest terms: "He who descends into this laver ofregeneration with faith forsakes the Evil One and engages himself to Christ, renounces the enemy and confesses that Christ is God . . . he returns from the font a son of God and a coheir of Christ. To Whom with the all holy, the good and lifegiving Spirit be glory now and always, forever and ever. Amen" (Sermon on Theophany 10). (2) The doxologies The witness of the doxologies is no less striking. The form now universal, "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost," so clearly expresses the Trinitarian dogma that the Arians found it necessary to deny that it had been in use previous to thetime of Flavian of Antioch (Philostorgius, "Hist. eccl.", III, xiii). It is true that up to the period of the Arian controversy another form, "Glory to the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit," had been more common (cf. Clement's Epistle to the Corinthians 58-59; Justin, First Apology 67). This latter form is indeed perfectly consistent with Trinitarian belief: it, however, expresses not the coequality of the Three Persons, but their operation in regard to man. We live in the Spirit, and through Him we are made partakers in Christ (Galatians 5:25; Romans 8:9); and it is through Christ, as His members, that we are worthy to offer praise to God (Hebrews 13:15). But there are many passages in the ante-Nicene Fathers which show that the form, "Glory be to the Father and to the Son, and to [with] the Holy Spirit," was also in use. In the narrative of St. Polycarp's martyrdom we read: "With Whom to Thee and the Holy Spirit be glory now and for the ages to come" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14; cf. 22). Clement of Alexandria bids men "give thanks and praise to the only Father and Son, to the Son and Father with the Holy Spirit" (The Pedagogue III.12). St. Hippolytus closes his work against Noetus with the words: "To Him be glory and power with the Father and the Holy Spirit inHoly Church now and always for ever and ever. Amen" (Against Noetus 18). Denis of Alexandria uses almost the same words: "To God the Father and to His Son Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit be honourand glory forever and ever, Amen" (in St. Basil, On the Holy Spirit 29.72). St. Basil further tells us that it was an immemorial custom among Christians when they lit the evening lamp to give thanks toGod with prayer: Ainoumen Patera kai Gion kai Hagion Pneuma Theou ("We praise the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit of God"). (3) Other patristic writings The doctrine of the Trinity is formally taught in every class of ecclesiastical writing. From among the apologists we may note Justin,First Apology 6; Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians 12. The latter tells us that Christians "are conducted to the future life by this one thing alone, that they know God and His Logos, what is the oneness of the Son with the Father, what the communion of the Father with the Son, what is the Spirit, what is the unity of these three, the Spirit, the Son, and the Father, and their distinction in unity." It would be impossible to be more explicit. And we may be sure that an apologist, writing for pagans, would weigh well the words in which he dealt with this doctrine. Amongst polemical writers we may refer to Irenaeus (Against Heresies I.22 and IV.20.1-6). In these passages he rejects the Gnosticfigment that the world was created by aeons who had emanated from God, but were not consubstantial with Him, and teaches theconsubstantiality of the Word and the Spirit by Whom God created all things. Clement of Alexandria professes the doctrine in The Pedagogue I.6, and somewhat later Gregory Thaumaturgus, as we have already seen, lays it down in the most express terms in his Creed.
savedwheat Posted January 30, 2016 Author Posted January 30, 2016 The standard according to Mormonism, is complete perfection. The only way to be worthy to receive grace in Mormonism is to completely cease all sinning, even the smallest sin must be eliminated. Since it is impossible to “do all you can do” and none of us can ever be perfect, it is impossible to ever become worthy of Grace in Mormonism. There is no salvation, Mormonism has a different gospel, a gospel that is NOT good news. We can choose the true biblical gospel where it is possible for man to be saved; that gives God's grace freely to sinners, apart from their works- Ephesians 2:8-10. According to the Holy Bible God's true grace saves sinners IN their sins. Luke 18:10-14 & Luke 23:43. That is really good news.
Jim Stiles Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 Just now, savedwheat said: The standard according to Mormonism, is complete perfection. The only way to be worthy to receive grace in Mormonism is to completely cease all sinning, even the smallest sin must be eliminated. Since it is impossible to “do all you can do” and none of us can ever be perfect, it is impossible to ever become worthy of Grace in Mormonism. There is no salvation, Mormonism has a different gospel, a gospel that is NOT good news. We can choose the true biblical gospel where it is possible for man to be saved; that gives God's grace freely to sinners, apart from their works- Ephesians 2:8-10. According to the Holy Bible God's true grace saves sinners IN their sins. Luke 18:10-14 & Luke 23:43. That is really good news. The gospel is offered freely to the elect, because only a regenerated persons is aware of their own sinfulness. The traditional LDS theology of forgiveness (after all you can do) is given in the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball. https://archive.org/stream/MiracleOfForgiveness/MoF_djvu.txt
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