Damien the Leper Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 7 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Says who? The actual word Trinity was first used by Tertullian. Formal Trinitarian Greetings were used in 1st century church worship. Tertullian is not an apostle. If you can provide an apostles opinion directly then we can move forward. 1
Jim Stiles Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 58 minutes ago, Valentinus said: Tertullian is not an apostle. If you can provide an apostles opinion directly then we can move forward. The Ante-Nicene fathers personally knew the Apostles. Polycarp as an infant was taken to see the elderly Apostle John before he passed away. Ignatius of Antioch may have been one of John's disciples. I do not know of anyone in the very early church who believed what the LDS church believes concerning the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The following video is on the reliability of the New Testament, but one cannot hold that the New Testament is reliable without accepting the reliability of the Ante-Nicene fathers. http://coldcasechristianity.com/2015/why-we-know-the-new-testament-gospels-were-written-early-cold-case-christianity-broadcast-51/ If, and only if, a fabulist were to make unwarranted changes to the text of the New Testament books, then he or she would tell tales about orthodox theology. He also specifically addresses the Trinity on this page: http://coldcasechristianity.com/2016/why-the-trinity-is-so-important-in-the-first-place/ Quote As believers, our redemption is originated by the Father (see Galatians 4:4), achieved through His Son (see 1 Peter 3:18), and then applied by the Spirit (see Titus 3:5)...The Bible describes the existence of one true God, yet also attributes the characteristics of this God to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit individually. The Biblical evidence requires us to seek a solution that acknowledges the singularity of God while respecting the Deity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For this reason, the Trinity is not a creative whim, it is an effective solution.
Damien the Leper Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 5 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: The Ante-Nicene fathers personally knew the Apostles. Polycarp as an infant was taken to see the elderly Apostle John before he passed away. Ignatius of Antioch may have been one of John's disciples. I do not know of anyone in the very early church who believed what the LDS church believes concerning the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The following video is on the reliability of the New Testament, but one cannot hold that the New Testament is reliable without accepting the reliability of the Ante-Nicene fathers. http://coldcasechristianity.com/2015/why-we-know-the-new-testament-gospels-were-written-early-cold-case-christianity-broadcast-51/ If, and only if, a fabulist were to make unwarranted changes to the text of the New Testament books, then he or she would tell tales about orthodox theology. He also specifically addresses the Trinity on this page: http://coldcasechristianity.com/2016/why-the-trinity-is-so-important-in-the-first-place/ Ehrman's "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture" gives valuable insight into the problems of the NT. I've read Dan Wallace's rebuttal and find it lacking in quality and information to substantiate an inerrant claim or that a coherent single Christology is maintained through all the books of the NT. Many of Jesus's followers differed fundamentally on what they believed was correct teaching...even going so far as to differ from Jesus himself. Yes, the Ante-Nicene fathers knew the apostles. But as students of the apostles, it would be quite a stretch to assume that they completely agreed with the theological presuppositions and teachings of the apostles. Ignatius of Antioch, Irenaeus of Lyon, Athanasius of Alexandria, etc. did not completely agree either. At Nicea in 325, there was a consensus concerning fundamental dogma. However, a meeting of bishops deciding on correct belief and passing on such teaching as tradition and "orthodox" is not a validation of orthodox theology. Orthodoxy, as a general belief, is in the eye of the beholder. FYI, so there is no confusion...I'm not LDS. I used to be. Now I just study Judaism and the Hebrew Bible and it's a blast! Thank you for your kind dialogue, Jim. 1
busybee Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 On 28/01/2016 at 11:05 PM, savedwheat said: None means none. None beside God. He alone was from everlasting. Jesus created all things. Nothing exists that exists without Jesus having crated it. So don't bring down Jesus to your level because that lesser Jesus can never atone for your sins. Better you be warned now. Oooh scary stuff!!
busybee Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 17 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Savedwheat and myself do what we do, not because we are mean, but because: We think we are right. The consequences of being wrong are deadly (separation from God and good things for eternity). Well I suggest you take your proselyting elsewhere. Find another target group who you think might be receptive to dialogue with you and savedwheat (specifically) after you tell them they are going to hell. Who know, some one out there might welcome such a discussion as their first encounter with you. Me, not so much.
busybee Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 14 hours ago, savedwheat said: Did you know that Mormons teach that Jesus was born in Jerusalem which is several miles away from where Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Did you know that Mormons teach there were cows in the Americas 600 BC? Did you know Mormons taught being black is a sin? Did you know Mormons teach that you can become white if you are black if you stop sinning? The Rosetta Stone showed Joseph Smith was a liar about an Egyptian burial. It was not a human sacrifice. They claim Abraham wrote the book of Abraham and facsimile #1 was dated to 100 BC which was2000 years after Abraham. So much fraud. Mormons say Mary was exceedingly white and fair. Which is not common in Israel. I guess that is where the word fair is used lots on websites for Mormons. Mormons believe blacks are from the cursed seed of Cain, but there is no mention of that in the Bible. That's why you hear Mormons use the word bigotry lots because they are preemptively using that word because they are bigots. Moses married an Ethiopian women. Mormons teach Jesus is the brother of Satan. The Bible says Jesus created Lucifer. Col. 1.15 [Col 1:15-16 KJV] 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Jesus is incarnated God that's the whole point that God entered His creation. In Mormon temples you can baptize for the dead, but what about all those people whose records are lost? How fair is that? No baptism for the dead in the Bible. What a waste of time. All those in 3rd world countries go to Hell? because they didn't keep good records? All this appeals to the pride of man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19EMjOLCIGo Do you know that most Mormons here think you're a bit slow?
Calm Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 53 minutes ago, busybee said: Oooh scary stuff!! Party animals emoticon is back, woo hoo! 2
Jim Stiles Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 38 minutes ago, busybee said: Well I suggest you take your proselyting elsewhere. Find another target group who you think might be receptive to dialogue with you and savedwheat (specifically) after you tell them they are going to hell. Who know, some one out there might welcome such a discussion as their first encounter with you. Me, not so much. You are not the first LDS member to complain about my discussions of theology and my enthusiastic support of traditional Protestant theology. The LDS church sends out hundreds of thousands of missionaries to the world. These missionaries inevitably tell their unbaptized listeners that their theology is wrong and that the theology of the missionaries is correct. Yet, the moment a non-LDS member presents a cogent argument against LDS theology, the LDS member screams and complains as if he or she were being tortured with the rack or an iron maiden. Describe what some would think to be troubling incidents in the life of Joseph Smith Jr., and the LDS member threatens to make a civil rights or an ASBO complaint.
Calm Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 48 minutes ago, busybee said: Well I suggest you take your proselyting elsewhere. Find another target group who you think might be receptive to dialogue with you and savedwheat (specifically) after you tell them they are going to hell. Who know, some one out there might welcome such a discussion as their first encounter with you. Me, not so much. Jim Stiles tries to engage in actual dialogue, which is greatly appreciated. I know some others get tired of being proselyted, but I don't mind it when it is done with thought and care and very important, attempting to understand our beliefs and history as we see them. For those who it continues to annoy, you might want to use the ignore function. I have found it lowers my irritation factor greatly. Saved wheat, otoh, has definite problems with accuracy and engagement. I held out hope for awhile that we could have a decent discussion about each's beliefs, but he has avoided addressing any difficult explorations such as if he views God as changeable because they are not Father, Son, and Spirit from the beginning in his understanding. 1
Jim Stiles Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 45 minutes ago, busybee said: Do you know that most Mormons here think you're a bit slow? Some of his points have merit. From the web site that cannot be named... Quote At the October 1960 LDS Church Conference, Spencer Kimball utilized 2 Nephi 30:6 when he stated how the Indians “are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.” He said, “The [Indian] children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation” (Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-3). During the same message Kimball referred to a 16-year-old Indian girl who was both LDS and “several shades lighter than her parents…” He went on to say, “These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.” Quote 2 Nephi 30:6 And then shall they rejoice; for they shall know that it is a blessing unto them from the hand of God; and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.
busybee Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 4 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: You are not the first LDS member to complain about my discussions of theology and my enthusiastic support of traditional Protestant theology. The LDS church sends out hundreds of thousands of missionaries to the world. These missionaries inevitably tell their unbaptized listeners that their theology is wrong and that the theology of the missionaries is correct. Yet, the moment a non-LDS member presents a cogent argument against LDS theology, the LDS member screams and complains as if he or she were being tortured with the rack or an iron maiden. Describe what some would think to be troubling incidents in the life of Joseph Smith Jr., and the LDS member threatens to make a civil rights or an ASBO complaint. My daughter is one of those missionaries, and I can tell you that that is not what they do. They teach the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and invite people to pray and ask for themselves if what they are teaching is true. You can discuss your theology and 'enthusiastically' support traditional Protestant theology without being obnoxious about it and misrepresenting our theology and doctrines. Our missionaries do it all the time. Let me know if you like me to get them to call round and show you how it's done. No-one is complaining about cogent arguments that may be presented. However, I have yet to see one from you or savewheat. You do know that he has condemned you to hell because you're not a Christian as well, right? And please provide examples of the behaviour on this board that you accuse us of in response to criticism of Joseph Smith ie civil rights and ASBO complaints. If you can't do that I will presume you are being a drama queen and exaggerating. While you're about it, provide names of those who are screaming in torture as well. Perhaps we can supply the screamers with gags, while you continue to twist and torture our doctrines, of which you and your ally, savedwheat, seem to have a woeful understanding! In light of the fact that we have been regaled by the same junk over and over again I actually think we have been quite restrained in our responses to being damned to hell in every second post from savedwheat. My suggestion was that you both jog on, and go and find other people to 'save', (or to send to hell, seeing as that seems to be the default destination for those who don't believe as you do.). And BTW we haven't reached the hundreds of thousands of missionaries yet. There are approximately 80 000 missionaries throughout the world at the moment. 1
busybee Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 4 hours ago, Calm said: Jim Stiles tries to engage in actual dialogue, which is greatly appreciated. I know some others get tired of being proselyted, but I don't mind it when it is done with thought and care and very important, attempting to understand our beliefs and history as we see them. For those who it continues to annoy, you might want to use the ignore function. I have found it lowers my irritation factor greatly. Saved wheat, otoh, has definite problems with accuracy and engagement. I held out hope for awhile that we could have a decent discussion about each's beliefs, but he has avoided addressing any difficult explorations such as if he views God as changeable because they are not Father, Son, and Spirit from the beginning in his understanding. Jim Stiles has chosen to align himself with savedwheat. It's hard to take him seriously.
Jim Stiles Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 3 minutes ago, busybee said: My daughter is one of those missionaries, and I can tell you that that is not what they do. They teach the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and invite people to pray and ask for themselves if what they are teaching is true. You can discuss your theology and 'enthusiastically' support traditional Protestant theology without being obnoxious about it and misrepresenting our theology and doctrines. Our missionaries do it all the time. Let me know if you like me to get them to call round and show you how it's done. No-one is complaining about cogent arguments that may be presented. However, I have yet to see one from you or savewheat. You do know that he has condemned you to hell because you're not a Christian as well, right? And please provide examples of the behaviour on this board that you accuse us of in response to criticism of Joseph Smith ie civil rights and ASBO complaints. If you can't do that I will presume you are being a drama queen and exaggerating. While you're about it, provide names of those who are screaming in torture as well. Perhaps we can supply the screamers with gags, while you continue to twist and torture our doctrines, of which you and your ally, savedwheat, seem to have a woeful understanding! In light of the fact that we have been regaled by the same junk over and over again I actually think we have been quite restrained in our responses to being damned to hell in every second post from savedwheat. My suggestion was that you both jog on, and go and find other people to 'save', (or to send to hell, seeing as that seems to be the default destination for those who don't believe as you do.). And BTW we haven't reached the hundreds of thousands of missionaries yet. There are approximately 80 000 missionaries throughout the world at the moment. Savedwheat was a few fries short of a happy meal. The threats of a civil rights complaint normally come from LDS members offsite (you know, the real world). ASBO complaints were mentioned as a UK joke. Show me where I, not savedwheat, have twisted an LDS doctrine or teaching. The practice of praying and asking God if something is true is a practice that depends upon theological ideas that are simply not true. Quote James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Wisdom is not knowledge. The person praying and asking God to see if the LDS religion is true is asking for knowledge, not wisdom. Quote Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; God speaks to man through God the Son. Quote John 1:1-9 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. And God does this through the Word, the Bible.
Jim Stiles Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 26 minutes ago, busybee said: ...My suggestion was that you both jog on, and go and find other people to 'save', (or to send to hell, seeing as that seems to be the default destination for those who don't believe as you do.)... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
Anakin7 Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: Savedwheat was a few fries short of a happy meal. The threats of a civil rights complaint normally come from LDS members offsite (you know, the real world). ASBO complaints were mentioned as a UK joke. Show me where I, not savedwheat, have twisted an LDS doctrine or teaching. The practice of praying and asking God if something is true is a practice that depends upon theological ideas that are simply not true. Wisdom is not knowledge. The person praying and asking God to see if the LDS religion is true is asking for knowledge, not wisdom. God speaks to man through God the Son. And God does this through the Word, the Bible. . And which Bible are you referring to ?, which anchient or modern version ?. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 31, 2016 by Anakin7
JLHPROF Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 16 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
Anakin7 Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Jim Stiles said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre Jim maybe this will help - http://en.fairmormon.org/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited January 31, 2016 by Anakin7
Vance Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 On 1/30/2016 at 8:33 PM, savedwheat said: Still couldn't find anything in the Bible about you having always existed alongside God, that God was not alone from everlasting, that there were gods and material beside God, that God is not omnipresent/omnipotent/omniscient, non-OSAS, salvation by works, that Jesus didn't create all things, and Jesus is not the Alpha & Omega and the great I AM, and that Joseph Smith saw the Father when the Bible says God the Father can't be seen since He is spirit only. I think an 8 year old can understand why not you? Let me know. So, are you saying that "alongside God" is the only place that we could not have existed? Ok, so there were other places then. Is God in hell? If not then He is not omnipresent. Funny thing is, the Bible tells us that Moses saw the "invisible" God. Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, . . 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Where does it say the God is "spirit only"? It doesn't.
Vance Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 22 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: No, the LDS is not trinitarian. It is not even monotheistic. News flash! Trinitarian isn't even monotheistic either.
Vance Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 On 1/28/2016 at 4:05 PM, savedwheat said: None beside God. Is not a statement of exclusion, but rather a statement of preeminence. Here is an example. Zeph 2:15 This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation, a place for beasts to lie down in! every one that passeth by her shall hiss, and wag his hand.
Vance Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 On 1/24/2016 at 3:12 AM, Jim Stiles said: No mention of Jesus being on the earth during the millennium: Zeph 3:14 ¶ Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 The Lord hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the Lord, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. 16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. 17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. 18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden. 19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame. 20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the Lord. Is that not during the millennium?
Calm Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 3 hours ago, busybee said: Jim Stiles has chosen to align himself with savedwheat. It's hard to take him seriously. I had missed the accusations of screaming and civil rights stuff. That is hard to take seriously.
JLHPROF Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 8 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: Yet, the moment a non-LDS member presents a cogent argument against LDS theology If I ever hear of one, I'll let you know.
thesometimesaint Posted January 31, 2016 Posted January 31, 2016 9 hours ago, Jim Stiles said: You are not the first LDS member to complain about my discussions of theology and my enthusiastic support of traditional Protestant theology. The LDS church sends out hundreds of thousands of missionaries to the world. These missionaries inevitably tell their unbaptized listeners that their theology is wrong and that the theology of the missionaries is correct. Yet, the moment a non-LDS member presents a cogent argument against LDS theology, the LDS member screams and complains as if he or she were being tortured with the rack or an iron maiden. Describe what some would think to be troubling incidents in the life of Joseph Smith Jr., and the LDS member threatens to make a civil rights or an ASBO complaint. Either the Apostles passed down their authority as per the Bible, or it was lost in the Apostasy. Protestants don't have a theological leg to stand on. Yes we do. What we don't do is tell them they are going to Hell. You haven't presented a cogent argument against LDS theology. Joseph Smith never claimed to be free of "troubling incidences". Just the opposite, but he was a good man trying to do what he thought God told him to do. The LDS don't stand or fall on the "troubling incidences" of Joseph Smith Jr. or of Simon bar Jonah.
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