Quick Question About Always Existing

[savedwheat]

The Bible says God was alone from everlasting so how does that not conflict with the claim that Mormons always existed?

 

Also, since Jesus claimed to be God and the Father is God, how could Mormons reject the Triune God?

[Avatar4321]

I've noticed absolutely zero citations so how can we possibly discuss what you are talking about?

[HappyJackWagon]

Gee, Avatar. That wasn't very friendly in response to someone's first post. Let me give this a try.

SavedWheat, could you please provide some references so we can understand the basis of your question and respond appropriately?

See? Easy.

 

[thesometimesaint]

Agreed.

[CA Steve]

43 minutes ago, savedwheat said:

The Bible says God was alone from everlasting so how does that not conflict with the claim that Mormons always existed?

 

Also, since Jesus claimed to be God and the Father is God, how could Mormons reject the Triune God?

I can answer your first question.

We do not claim that Mormons have always existed. In fact we have only been around since 1830. So I suppose before that God was alone.

Hope that helps.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, savedwheat said:

The Bible says God was alone from everlasting so how does that not conflict with the claim that Mormons always existed?

 

Also, since Jesus claimed to be God and the Father is God, how could Mormons reject the Triune God?

Quick question: What Biblical passage contains the phrase "triune God"?

 

[strappinglad]

Must be a rule change. How do these one posters get into the Discussion forum? 

[Anakin7]

savedwheat which Triune God form/model are you referring to - Western,Eastern,Economic,Essential, Social,Bultmann ?. And where do you worship ?. May True Grace Be With You.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

Edited January 22, 2016 by Anakin7

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, savedwheat said:

The Bible says God was alone from everlasting so how does that not conflict with the claim that Mormons always existed?

 

Also, since Jesus claimed to be God and the Father is God, how could Mormons reject the Triune God?

Actually, the Jeremiah 1:4-5 says God knew Jeremiah before forming him in the belly

and Jesus said He knew the Father before the world was so it seems El Elyon was not "alone."

Keep em coming savedwheat.

[Cold Steel]

9 hours ago, savedwheat said:

The Bible says God was alone from everlasting so how does that not conflict with the claim that Mormons always existed

The Bible does not state that God was ever alone. Instead, Moses refers to God as a plurality. 

When we say that husband and wife are ONE, we don't mean that they are two manifestations of the same person. They become a single COUPLE. In the same way, GOD (Elohim) is the plural form of God and can be made up of multiple entities. Just as COUPLE signifies a plurality of elements (two), but, too, a oneness. Thus, "Let US make MAN in OUR image, after OUR likeness" or "MAN has become as one of US. There is nothing monotheistic about "WE."

But is the oneness of a couple the same as the oneness of God?

Absolutely, and the scriptures bear that out.

Remember when Jesus prayed to the Father (an act requiring two beings) concerning the TWELVE? He asked, “...that THEY may be ONE,“ and here's the kicker, “even as WE are ONE.“ In the SAME WAY that GOD is ONE, Jesus was asking that the TWELVE be ONE, which is the same way a COUPLE is ONE. 

This is scriptural, and irrefutable. To prevent confusion, we call the singular GOD and the plural the GODHEAD. 

But if Mormons and ancient Christians believe in Theosis, how is it possible that MAN can become as God? (See John 1:3) Because we, being the children of God, can become ONE with HIM. And HER. For God created MAN in his image, “male and female.“ So how can both male and female be present in GOD (Elohim) unless there's a female element to GOD? Blasphemy?? No! It was God who used the family allegory. “God the Father“ is a revealed term. But where is there a father without a mother? The allegory doesn't work if there is no mother. But if so, why did Jesus never mention Her? Perhaps because, as some have theorized, He wished to spare Her the indignities of men He had to suffer. But that's only a guess. It has never been spoken of in a revelation that we know of, ancient our modern; however, the conjecture is sound. 

Quote

Also, since Jesus claimed to be God and the Father is God, how could Mormons reject the Triune God?

Because the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God. Any of the three can speak as God in interacting with prophets.  

We used to think there was only one galaxy making up the universe. Then, around the turn of the previous century, we discovered there were many other galaxies -- billions of them. Now we postulate there may not be a single universe, but many. Ours is expanding, but beyond the bounds of ours, there may be trillions of others much larger than ours. To believe a single entity governs all of them would be stretching things in my view. If three Gods can be ONE, why not 30, 300, 3000 or even more?  And if twelve can be in a quorum, why not 24 or more?

Man thinks in puny terms. We're children. God is ONE. When we say that "MAN" went to the moon, we don't mean a single human being went there, but that mankind achieved it. In the same way, God is a plurality. But the Father is a single component, as is the Son as the Holy Spirit and, if you believe it's possible, even a Mother. 

Joseph Smith said we have to rip the preconceived notions of the past from our minds so that we can understand how to worship and what we worship. Are we polytheists? No, because we believe in one God, worlds without end. But if so, then so are secular Christians because they believe in THREE Gods being ONE. 

[Ahab]

5 hours ago, Cold Steel said:

The Bible does not state that God was ever alone. Instead, Moses refers to God as a plurality. 

When we say that husband and wife are ONE, we don't mean that they are two manifestations of the same person. They become a single COUPLE. In the same way, GOD (Elohim) is the plural form of God and can be made up of multiple entities. Just as COUPLE signifies a plurality of elements (two), but, too, a oneness. Thus, "Let US make MAN in OUR image, after OUR likeness" or "MAN has become as one of US. There is nothing monotheistic about "WE."

But is the oneness of a couple the same as the oneness of God?

Absolutely, and the scriptures bear that out.

Remember when Jesus prayed to the Father (an act requiring two beings) concerning the TWELVE? He asked, “...that THEY may be ONE,“ and here's the kicker, “even as WE are ONE.“ In the SAME WAY that GOD is ONE, Jesus was asking that the TWELVE be ONE, which is the same way a COUPLE is ONE. 

This is scriptural, and irrefutable. To prevent confusion, we call the singular GOD and the plural the GODHEAD. 

But if Mormons and ancient Christians believe in Theosis, how is it possible that MAN can become as God? (See John 1:3) Because we, being the children of God, can become ONE with HIM. And HER. For God created MAN in his image, “male and female.“ So how can both male and female be present in GOD (Elohim) unless there's a female element to GOD? Blasphemy?? No! It was God who used the family allegory. “God the Father“ is a revealed term. But where is there a father without a mother? The allegory doesn't work if there is no mother. But if so, why did Jesus never mention Her? Perhaps because, as some have theorized, He wished to spare Her the indignities of men He had to suffer. But that's only a guess. It has never been spoken of in a revelation that we know of, ancient our modern; however, the conjecture is sound. 

Because the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Ghost is God. Any of the three can speak as God in interacting with prophets.  

We used to think there was only one galaxy making up the universe. Then, around the turn of the previous century, we discovered there were many other galaxies -- billions of them. Now we postulate there may not be a single universe, but many. Ours is expanding, but beyond the bounds of ours, there may be trillions of others much larger than ours. To believe a single entity governs all of them would be stretching things in my view. If three Gods can be ONE, why not 30, 300, 3000 or even more?  And if twelve can be in a quorum, why not 24 or more?

Man thinks in puny terms. We're children. God is ONE. When we say that "MAN" went to the moon, we don't mean a single human being went there, but that mankind achieved it. In the same way, God is a plurality. But the Father is a single component, as is the Son as the Holy Spirit and, if you believe it's possible, even a Mother. 

Joseph Smith said we have to rip the preconceived notions of the past from our minds so that we can understand how to worship and what we worship. Are we polytheists? No, because we believe in one God, worlds without end. But if so, then so are secular Christians because they believe in THREE Gods being ONE. 

Good response.  Very thorough explanation. 

I kinda doubt that he will read that many words though, so a Reader's Digest version may work a little better for him.

I's say something about how we always existed as a part of God even before we were born to him as his children.  Similar to how mortal children are products of their mortal parents who reproduce parts of themselves. 

May still be too many words for him though.

[thesometimesaint]

Let us make man in our image... .

Genesis 126-27

It is hard to have one of us and our.

[JLHPROF]

15 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I can answer your first question.

We do not claim that Mormons have always existed. In fact we have only been around since 1830. So I suppose before that God was alone.

Hope that helps.

Nah..the Mormon religion is the same religion as Adam, Moses, Noah, Christ etc.  One gospel for all eternity.
Only the Church started in 1830. 

[RevTestament]

16 hours ago, savedwheat said:

Also, since Jesus claimed to be God and the Father is God, how could Mormons reject the Triune God?

Oh, I missed this one. I don't really reject the "triune God" nor do I reject the house of God. How about you? Do you believe God has a house? Do you believe Elohim are in it? If not, why not?

What I reject are the doctrines of the trinity. Do you know what those are?

Do you know that a minority of the approx 1200 bishops in the empire decided to kick out anyone who believed that Jesus was begotten in time as the scriptures say "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee." See Hebrews, Acts and the Psalms. Instead, they didn't believe the oath of God and ruled that Christ was begotten before all ages or worlds. And who gave the minority of bishops the right to decide that for the church? Constantine? The emperor who ruled as a pagan, pontifex maximus and wasn't baptized until his death, if at all? I will be glad to discuss that history with you if you are open to learning...

Cheers

[JLHPROF]

16 hours ago, savedwheat said:

The Bible says God was alone from everlasting so how does that not conflict with the claim that Mormons always existed?

 

Also, since Jesus claimed to be God and the Father is God, how could Mormons reject the Triune God?

Faithful - is that you?

The Bible never says God was "alone from everlasting".  That phrase isn't even in the Bible.

[CA Steve]

52 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Nah..the Mormon religion is the same religion as Adam, Moses, Noah, Christ etc.  One gospel for all eternity.
Only the Church started in 1830. 

I understand we are both being a bit tongue in cheek here but it might be an interesting discussion. I wonder if missionary work in the next life identifies itself as "Mormon"? I suspect not.

[Cold Steel]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

...a Reader's Digest version may work a little better for him. [I'd] say something about how we always existed as a part of God even before we were born to him as his children.  Similar to how mortal children are products of their mortal parents who reproduce parts of themselves. 

Perhaps we should think of God not as a being, but as a continuum.

But the writers of the New Testament have not helped the situation by the inconsistencies therein. In the text the frequently make distinctions between "God" and Jesus Christ. They'll write about God and Jesus Christ, whom HE hath sent. These are all references to the Father, granted, but the distinction is there. There is not a single verse that associates the Father with the Son as single entities. John says that in the beginning the Son was with God and he was God. To the LDS, this means that in the beginning was the Christ, and the Christ was with the Father and that he was part of the Godhead. Stephen said he saw Jesus on the right hand of God. Clearly this means Jesus was on the right hand of the Father, so we have to use our knowledge of God to determine what these references mean in context. If we take our concepts out of the equation and plug in the Trinity concepts instead, the scriptures become a hopeless jumble that makes little or no sense. 

We humans are not God just as infants are not adults. We can become ONE with God because we are his children and we have the seeds of divinity within us. And because God does not die or cease to exist, the work and glory of God is to propagate. "For this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." 

To the saints it's all sublimely simple, while the Trinity is inconsistent and confusing. Our protestant brothers and sisters should ask themselves why God made Man in his own image. Why does God have a head, arms hands, eyes, feet, ears and mouth? Jesus is in the express image of the Father, but nowhere do the scriptures say he is the Father. 

 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Cold Steel said:

Perhaps we should think of God not as a being, but as a continuum.

But the writers of the New Testament have not helped the situation by the inconsistencies therein. In the text the frequently make distinctions between "God" and Jesus Christ. They'll write about God and Jesus Christ, whom HE hath sent. These are all references to the Father, granted, but the distinction is there. There is not a single verse that associates the Father with the Son as single entities. John says that in the beginning the Son was with God and he was God. To the LDS, this means that in the beginning was the Christ, and the Christ was with the Father and that he was part of the Godhead. Stephen said he saw Jesus on the right hand of God. Clearly this means Jesus was on the right hand of the Father, so we have to use our knowledge of God to determine what these references mean in context. If we take our concepts out of the equation and plug in the Trinity concepts instead, the scriptures become a hopeless jumble that makes little or no sense. 

We humans are not God just as infants are not adults. We can become ONE with God because we are his children and we have the seeds of divinity within us. And because God does not die or cease to exist, the work and glory of God is to propagate. "For this is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." 

To the saints it's all sublimely simple, while the Trinity is inconsistent and confusing. Our protestant brothers and sisters should ask themselves why God made Man in his own image. Why does God have a head, arms hands, eyes, feet, ears and mouth? Jesus is in the express image of the Father, but nowhere do the scriptures say he is the Father. 

 

Yeah I also think it would have been kinda nice for someone to have given us all a clear understanding of the etymology of the word "God".  A little 3-letter word that apparently we're supposed to define for ourselves. 

I myself think there are multiple correct definitions or ways we can properly use that word, including:

1. The supreme being (or kind of being)

2. Any person who is that kind of being, whether or not fully developed

3. A reference to our Father in heaven, the Father of everyone who has ever been sent to this world since it's' creation.

And probably a few more that I'm not thinking of at the moment. 

And like Jesus said, eternal life is to know God (including what that word means) and Jesus who he sent. 

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I understand we are both being a bit tongue in cheek here but it might be an interesting discussion. I wonder if missionary work in the next life identifies itself as "Mormon"? I suspect not.

Neither does the Church of Jesus Christ in mortality identify itself as "the Mormon Church."

But make no mistake: the missionary work undertaken in the Spirit World is part and parcel of the missionary work undertaken in mortality by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And the missionary work in the Spirit World is inextricably linked to the vicarious ordinances of salvation being performed under the auspices of and by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[CA Steve]

41 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Neither does the Church of Jesus Christ in mortality identify itself as "the Mormon Church."

But make no mistake: the missionary work undertaken in the Spirit World is part and parcel of the missionary work undertaken in mortality by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And the missionary work in the Spirit World is inextricably linked to the vicarious ordinances of salvation being performed under the auspices of and by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

I guess someone else besides the church was responsible for making Meet the Mormons.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I guess someone else besides the church was responsible for making Meet the Mormons.

 

[sigh] I've explained this many times on this board, but I'll try again. 

The Church leaders do not object to members being called Mormons, or to the word being used as a descriptor for things pertaining to the faith, as in Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the Mormon Trail, the Mormon Faith or Mormonism. What it does do and asks others to do is to refer to the Church itself as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or, as a shortened form, Church of Jesus Christ. This is because of the commandment from Christ Himself in  3 Nephi that His Church be called after His name. He said if it were the church of a man, it would be called after the name of that man. But it is not the church of a man. It is not the church of Mormon. It is the Church of Jesus Christ. Ergo, it is not inconsistent to make a film called "Meet the Mormons" but to ask that the church be called by its proper name, the Church of Jesus Christ. 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Cold Steel]

10 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yeah I also think it would have been kinda nice for someone to have given us all a clear understanding of the etymology of the word "God".  A little 3-letter word that apparently we're supposed to define for ourselves. I myself think there are multiple correct definitions or ways we can properly use that word, including: 1. The supreme being (or kind of being); 2. Any person who is that kind of being, whether or not fully developed; 3. A reference to our Father in heaven, the Father of everyone who has ever been sent to this world since it's' creation. And probably a few more that I'm not thinking of at the moment. 

The Jews weren't used to thinking in terms of a messiah who was God. To this day they're still citing that. So even tho the early Christians knew Jesus was Jehovah, they found it somewhat easier to play down that point. You can see it in the writings of John, especially Revelation, but we do the same thing (the Larry King interview with Pres. Hinckley comes to mind). I also think one reason Joseph Smith played down the appearance of the Father in the first vision was because it went against the Trinitarian doctrines of the day. He mentions the appearance of Jesus in all of them, but he discreetly fails to mention the Father in two of the versions I'm familiar with, and I believe it was intentional. 

The fact is, 1+1+1=3, not 1. And that's the Godhead. If God is a plurality, then it's moot. 

A person who believes in one god is called a monotheist. A person who believes in two gods is called a polytheist. And a person who believes in three gods is called a Christian. They hate that but they can't deny it. No way can three different beings be ONE God (singular). Are you going to tell Jesus that his Father isn't God?

Is it not written, "This is life eternal, that we might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3)? 

[JAHS]

On 1/21/2016 at 3:11 PM, savedwheat said:

The Bible says God was alone from everlasting so how does that not conflict with the claim that Mormons always existed?

 

Also, since Jesus claimed to be God and the Father is God, how could Mormons reject the Triune God?

Some scripture verses would help us understand what you are referring to. I can't find any that say God has always been alone. But there are many that refer to our pre-earth existence:

When God made the earth "all the sons of God shouted for joy:" (Job 38:7) Where were these sons who shouted?

"the spirit shall return unto God who gave it:" (Eccl. 12:7)  Returning to a place means that you were once there before.

God told Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee:" (Jer. 1:5) .

Jesus was asked, "who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind:" (John 9:2) This question suggests that it was possible for the man to have sinned before he was born.

"bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord:" (Hel. 14:17) Bringing someone back means that you were already once there. 

The Father is God and Jesus is God. Together, along with the Holy Ghost they all three are God but separate individuals we call the Godhead.

"But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."  (Acts 7: 55-56)

"Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." (Luke 3: 21-22)

Was Jesus praying to Himself in the Garden of Gethsemane? (Mark 14: 32-39)

There are several scriptures that suggest that they are separate beings but work together for a single purpose, and are therefore sometimes referred together as "God",  but the words triune or trinity are not found in the Bible.

 

[halconero]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Nah..the Mormon religion is the same religion as Adam, Moses, Noah, Christ etc.  One gospel for all eternity.
Only the Church started in 1830. 

Yeah. You're lucky we allow you guys to call yourselves Christians.