Faithful Posted November 17, 2015 Posted November 17, 2015 Three Views have been proposed by Mormons on Intelligences, but they all break down in their own right so it must not be true... 1. Intelligence is the material from which all persons but God the Father are made. The status of the Son and the Holy Ghost is unclear. God always existed in this version and created material to create intelligences to create humans. Or it means there was this material alongside God always having existed. 2. Intelligence is the material from which all persons, including God are made. This is purely atheistic since atheists say material created all persons including any alleged gods. It does not distinguish whether this was an infinite regress of cause and effects or merely always existing state of material unto itself that brought everything into existence.3. Each person, including God, exists eternally as an individual entity (the dominant view today).This is arbitrary and fails to answer the necessary question: where do these others come from as there can only be one uncreated Creator?Two is the opposite of three.All three fail even one, because God is ALONE FROM EVERLASTING so there is no material beside God, and He does not need to create material to create humans. He can simply call man made in His image into being. When we speak of Mormon material we are not talking about all the matter in the universe, but some supernatural materials People are living souls NOT spirits. Angels are spirits. God is a spirit. God is THE spirit. Human beings have a soul with a spirit and a body. Man is tripartite not bipartite.
Gray Posted November 17, 2015 Posted November 17, 2015 You're right that Mormon theology doesn't have a "first cause" or "uncreated creator". That doesn't make it atheistic, though. Theism is the belief in God or gods, however you define that word. You don't have to affirm the cosmological argument to qualify as a theist. 2
Analytics Posted November 17, 2015 Posted November 17, 2015 Three Views have been proposed by Mormons on Intelligences, but they all break down in their own right so it must not be true... 1. Intelligence is the material from which all persons but God the Father are made. The status of the Son and the Holy Ghost is unclear. God always existed in this version and created material to create intelligences to create humans. Or it means there was this material alongside God always having existed. 2. Intelligence is the material from which all persons, including God are made. This is purely atheistic since atheists say material created all persons including any alleged gods. It does not distinguish whether this was an infinite regress of cause and effects or merely always existing state of material unto itself that brought everything into existence.3. Each person, including God, exists eternally as an individual entity (the dominant view today).This is arbitrary and fails to answer the necessary question: where do these others come from as there can only be one uncreated Creator?Two is the opposite of three.All three fail even one, because God is ALONE FROM EVERLASTING so there is no material beside God, and He does not need to create material to create humans. He can simply call man made in His image into being. When we speak of Mormon material we are not talking about all the matter in the universe, but some supernatural materials People are living souls NOT spirits. Angels are spirits. God is a spirit. God is THE spirit. Human beings have a soul with a spirit and a body. Man is tripartite not bipartite. Your assertion that "there can only be on uncreated Creator" is pure question-begging. There is no reason to believe that is the true nature of things. 1
Faithful Posted November 17, 2015 Author Posted November 17, 2015 You're right that Mormon theology doesn't have a "first cause" or "uncreated creator". That doesn't make it atheistic, though. Theism is the belief in God or gods, however you define that word. You don't have to affirm the cosmological argument to qualify as a theist. It seems contradictory to say God always existed and then not say God is the first cause uncreated Creator. That's why no Mormons that I know take this position #1. So we are left with #2 or #3 as the view Mormons often take different sides on. You do have to be an atheist (I like to call Mormons supernatural atheists) to not accept the cosmological argument, because all you are doing is inserting gods as intelligences or materials. Atheists do the same thing. They claim it is just materials and intelligences causing material and intelligences in an infinite regress. But infinite regress is impossible. There must be the uncreated Creator alone from everlasting with no materials or gods or intelligences beside Him. That is what makes Him great, because He originates everything. As Jesus said, Nothing exists that exists without Jesus having created it Himself. I believe Mormonism, similar to Atheists, is a way to reject the existence of the uncreated Creator, God Almighty, and thus refuse God's saving grace.
jaberwocky Posted November 17, 2015 Posted November 17, 2015 I'm guessing that if I don't learn the answer to this before I die I'll be ok. 3
Faithful Posted November 17, 2015 Author Posted November 17, 2015 Your assertion that "there can only be on uncreated Creator" is pure question-begging. There is no reason to believe that is the true nature of things. Again, the reason you are question begging is because you would have to ask where these others come from. And just like Atheists you claim material created everything. Material can't create anything. It needs a first cause. Material which has no mind can't create that which has a Mind God. You can create an infinite number of cults depending how many preexisting Gods or intelligences always existed. One cult would have 5, another 10, while another 3, and on and on. With a different number of Gods you create a new cult which added features.
Popular Post mfbukowski Posted November 17, 2015 Popular Post Posted November 17, 2015 Three Views have been proposed by Mormons on Intelligences, but they all break down in their own right so it must not be true... 1. Intelligence is the material from which all persons but God the Father are made. The status of the Son and the Holy Ghost is unclear. God always existed in this version and created material to create intelligences to create humans. Or it means there was this material alongside God always having existed. 2. Intelligence is the material from which all persons, including God are made. This is purely atheistic since atheists say material created all persons including any alleged gods. It does not distinguish whether this was an infinite regress of cause and effects or merely always existing state of material unto itself that brought everything into existence.3. Each person, including God, exists eternally as an individual entity (the dominant view today).This is arbitrary and fails to answer the necessary question: where do these others come from as there can only be one uncreated Creator?Two is the opposite of three.All three fail even one, because God is ALONE FROM EVERLASTING so there is no material beside God, and He does not need to create material to create humans. He can simply call man made in His image into being. When we speak of Mormon material we are not talking about all the matter in the universe, but some supernatural materials People are living souls NOT spirits. Angels are spirits. God is a spirit. God is THE spirit. Human beings have a soul with a spirit and a body. Man is tripartite not bipartite.Pure straw man You don't even have our beliefs right and do not reference any of what you see as alleged "doctrine" In short you don't know what you are talking about. 7
Faithful Posted November 17, 2015 Author Posted November 17, 2015 I'm guessing that if I don't learn the answer to this before I die I'll be ok. I believe the answer was already given. And it concurs with the Bible that God is alone from everlasting. So you have denied God alone from everlasting, that is, Jesus who created everything. Because you are unwilling to submit yourself to the uncreated Creator, God is saying you have no humility to be part of His kingdom. Therefore, if you were to die this second, I am 100% convinced you would be resurrected at the end of the millennial kingdom and be judged at the Great White Throne and sent to Hell. In fact, you lock yourself in Hell from the inside because you want to be eternally separated from the uncreated Creator even by delusionally denying His existence.
Faithful Posted November 17, 2015 Author Posted November 17, 2015 Pure straw man You don't even have our beliefs right and do not reference any of what you see as alleged "doctrine" In short you don't know what you are talking about.In short, you don't back up any of your accusations, so what I said stands as the truth.
Popular Post The Nehor Posted November 17, 2015 Popular Post Posted November 17, 2015 There are holes in your argument that you could drive a galaxy through. Hope this helps. 6
Thinking Posted November 17, 2015 Posted November 17, 2015 I think it's fairly simple for the human mind to accept that time will continue indefinitely, but it's more difficult to comprehend that something has always existed. It seems that there should be a beginning, but if there was, what was before that beginning? If there is an all powerful god, is its power tied to morality? The list of questions might be as endless as many hope our existence is.
The Nehor Posted November 17, 2015 Posted November 17, 2015 In short, you don't back up any of your accusations, so what I said stands as the truth.Faithful believes the Universe was created by a volcano monster made out of cheese named Stanley. Unless he can argue some way that Stanley makes sense I win this argument. Go to it Faithful! 2
Faithful Posted November 17, 2015 Author Posted November 17, 2015 There are holes in your argument that you could drive a galaxy through. Hope this helps. I am glad you give you strength to what I said because you were unable to come up with any counter arguments.
Tsuzuki Posted November 17, 2015 Posted November 17, 2015 It seems contradictory to say God always existed and then not say God is the first cause uncreated Creator. That's why no Mormons that I know take this position #1. So we are left with #2 or #3 as the view Mormons often take different sides on.When the eye of Shiva opens, you will see that we are all God.
Faithful Posted November 17, 2015 Author Posted November 17, 2015 I think it's fairly simple for the human mind to accept that time will continue indefinitely, but it's more difficult to comprehend that something has always existed. It seems that there should be a beginning, but if there was, what was before that beginning? If there is an all powerful god, is its power tied to morality? The list of questions might be as endless as many hope our existence is. It is illogical to ask what came before the beginning, since it is the beginning. Both the Father and the Spirit are said to be the beginning and the end. This brings us to the Trinity of God and the Bible you reject that says this. The Apostles said this. Jesus said this. Father said this. Spirit says this. Man is not mortal in the sense he could cease to exist. Man will never cease to exist since man is made in God's image. God's glory is seen in this mortal man who will never cease to exist. I answered all your issues so what you do have to hold onto for Mormonism?
Faithful Posted November 17, 2015 Author Posted November 17, 2015 Faithful believes the Universe was created by a volcano monster made out of cheese named Stanley. Unless he can argue some way that Stanley makes sense I win this argument. Go to it Faithful! You are sinning bearing false witness since I believe the universe was created by God the uncreated Creator who was alone from everlasting, with nothing beside Him. As God says nothing exists beside Him, before Him and no Gods after Him. Gods are just idols the Bible says. God is the only One True God.
Faithful Posted November 17, 2015 Author Posted November 17, 2015 When the eye of Shiva opens, you will see that we are all God. Man's pride and self-exaltation want to claim he is God. God is all knowing. You can't remember you always existed. God knows everything and what He was doing before time and space before He created it.
Faithful Posted November 17, 2015 Author Posted November 17, 2015 Mormons don't engage the discussion sincerely and genuinely I find. They are not being honest with themselves but shutting their minds down.
Tsuzuki Posted November 17, 2015 Posted November 17, 2015 Man's pride and self-exaltation want to claim he is God. God is all knowing. You can't remember you always existed. God knows everything and what He was doing before time and space before He created it.You don't know what I can and can't remember.
ksfisher Posted November 17, 2015 Posted November 17, 2015 (edited) Mormons don't engage the discussion sincerely and genuinely I find. They are not being honest with themselves but shutting their minds down. Your post #8 doesn't seem to leave much room for discussion. If you already know what we believe and say it doesn't make sense, and you say that you know what will happen to us, what is there to discuss? Edited November 17, 2015 by ksfisher
KevinG Posted November 17, 2015 Posted November 17, 2015 Mormons don't engage the discussion sincerely and genuinely I find. They are not being honest with themselves but shutting their minds down.You win. Pack it in boys! The logics ate overwhelming. Our doctrines are revealed. I'm gonna be a Calvanist. What will the rest of you be? 3
Faithful Posted November 17, 2015 Author Posted November 17, 2015 You don't know what I can and can't remember. I do know you are being deceitful claiming you know all the intricacies of the beginning of the universe that you allege to have created because you claim to be God.
Ares Posted November 17, 2015 Posted November 17, 2015 Mormons don't engage the discussion sincerely and genuinely I find. They are not being honest with themselves but shutting their minds down. OK - I'm banning you now so you can go brag to your buddies how the Mormons couldn't take your extreme logic and kicked you off of their site. Good bye troll.
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