How can anyone stand without Revelation?

[Avatar4321]

I've noticed that those who criticize the church and our leaders often claim that the prophet isn't getting Revelation. It seems to me that the problem isn't the lack of revelation for the prophet but the lack of revelation for the critic. What they are really saying is since they aren't getting Revelation, the leaders aren't. And yet despite admitting to no Revelation they want us to agree on all things with them. It's an odd viewpoint to me.

But it's making me see clearly that Revelation is necessary to stand in the church. If we aren't recieving revelation then we are putting ourselves at risk of falling. Without Revelation to know the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph is a prophet, or that Jesus is the Christ, I could not stand the trials I'm going through. I wouldn't be faithful to the Lord.

How can we have a relationship with God without Revelation?

[Scott Lloyd]

I fear that some mistake their own strongly held opinions as revelation. It can require a difficult and long-term effort -- and a great deal of humbling -- to learn to differentiate between the two.

That's one of the reasons I think prophets and apostles are set in place as leaders. They provide a check on our own efforts to receive revelation and help us see that what we thought was personal revelation may not be so in actuality.

If you've ever been in love, perhaps you can understand how easy it is to confuse personal inclinations and ardent desires with revelation.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I've noticed that those who criticize the church and our leaders often claim that the prophet isn't getting Revelation. It seems to me that the problem isn't the lack of revelation for the prophet but the lack of revelation for the critic. What they are really saying is since they aren't getting Revelation, the leaders aren't. And yet despite admitting to no Revelation they want us to agree on all things with them. It's an odd viewpoint to me.

But it's making me see clearly that Revelation is necessary to stand in the church. If we aren't recieving revelation then we are putting ourselves at risk of falling. Without Revelation to know the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph is a prophet, or that Jesus is the Christ, I could not stand the trials I'm going through. I wouldn't be faithful to the Lord.

How can we have a relationship with God without Revelation?

Well, if non is given....what am suppose to do make it up?  Make believe in my mind to fit in?  But I know the steps to getting it, you laid it out in the other thread to Rockpond.  

[canard78]

21 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I fear that some mistake their own strongly held opinions as revelation. It can require a difficult and long-term effort -- and a great deal of humbling -- to learn to differentiate between the two.

I feel exactly the same way about the LDS leadership. They believe that their strongly held opinions are messages from God when instead they are nothing more than strongly held opinions.

Your belief that God has revealed that they are actually prophets is more of the same.

And yes... this is my strongly held opinion.

 

Quote

 

That's one of the reasons I think prophets and apostles are set in place as leaders. They provide a check on our own efforts to receive revelation and help us see that what we thought was personal revelation may not be so in actuality.

 

Can you give an example of something said by a prophet in the last 50 years that could only have come from God?

In other words, what has been said that couldn't possibly have been anything but revelation?

 

Quote

If you've ever been in love, perhaps you can understand how easy it is to confuse personal inclinations and ardent desires with revelation.

 

 

And therein lies the problem. 

It has been a while since I "blogged," but the last time I did, I spent time looking into this question. 

At the end of the blog are seven examples of people receiving revelation. Can you spot the Mormon revelations in the redacted version?

If a person gets revelation that infant baptism is needed or that a book is the only true scripture... what is the source? Are they all getting revelation?

Edit: forgot to link to the quotes.

http://manyotherhands.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/what-is-lifes-priority-is-it-knowing-or.html?m=1

 

Edited January 12, 2016 by canard78

[Jeanne]

The thing is..if revelation is not received consistently and in a concise way, it throws the whole restoration into a fix.  No one is receiving revelation as JS did..so why blame critics?

[Zakuska]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

The thing is..if revelation is not received consistently and in a concise way, it throws the whole restoration into a fix.  No one is receiving revelation as JS did..so why blame critics?

Reminds me of this time...

1 Samuel 3

1 And the child Samuel ministered unto the LORD before Eli. And the word of the LORD was precious in those days; there was no open vision.
2 And it came to pass at that time, when Eli was laid down in his place, and his eyes began to wax dim, that he could not see;

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I've noticed that those who criticize the church and our leaders often claim that the prophet isn't getting Revelation. It seems to me that the problem isn't the lack of revelation for the prophet but the lack of revelation for the critic. What they are really saying is since they aren't getting Revelation, the leaders aren't. And yet despite admitting to no Revelation they want us to agree on all things with them. It's an odd viewpoint to me.

But it's making me see clearly that Revelation is necessary to stand in the church. If we aren't recieving revelation then we are putting ourselves at risk of falling. Without Revelation to know the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph is a prophet, or that Jesus is the Christ, I could not stand the trials I'm going through. I wouldn't be faithful to the Lord.

How can we have a relationship with God without Revelation?

If their idea or view of revelation is a new section to the Doctrine and Covenants, they are being short sited. Revelation does not need to be added as canonized and added as scripture. Since we believe them to be Prophets, it would be easy to just take pen in hand to salsify our wants and their ego's. What I am impressed with is how they show restraint, unlike the CoC who as an offshoot of our faith has added to the Dictrine and Conventants with every Prophet, to establish their office. Each section (to my eyes) amounted to little more that a favorite sermon. It takes great respect and great love for our canonized scripture, not to leave their fingerprints to this cherished book we call, Doctrine and Covenants, when they could easily do so. Only D&C 135, which only spoke of the facts of Joseph and Hyrum' death have been added. D&C 136 by Brigham Young to guide the Saints west nd the assurance that Joseph was indeed a Prophet and the purpose of his death and that the work would go on. D&C 137, just something added that Joseph received that has not already been added. Then with blinding revelation and per a vision (one of my favorite section of the D&C), D&C 138, that gives us hope and reveals our role to our beloved dead...well worth a read for any who have not. The only other two, the "Offical Declaration 1" ending plural marriage, and "Offical Declaration 2", ending the prohibition of Black men everywhere to recieve the Prieshood if they (like all men) are worthy to recieve this blessing and responsibility. 

It shows great reverence and respect now to leave their fingerprints on this Holy Book, just because they can. It also shows a lack of ego, where others have added, just because they can...also not only adding, but removing sections that did not fit their views on doctrine, whom they know Josesph wrote and received, while believing and professing that their authority came from Joesph and his account that the Priesthood came to him and Oliver. Then going back with an eraser to deny his gift to fit their beliefs 

My final comment, a Church this large and dynamic cannot be lead without revelation...but all revelation does not have to be done with pen and hand  and canonized in print. 

  

[Jeanne]

11 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I've noticed that those who criticize the church and our leaders often claim that the prophet isn't getting Revelation. It seems to me that the problem isn't the lack of revelation for the prophet but the lack of revelation for the critic. What they are really saying is since they aren't getting Revelation, the leaders aren't. And yet despite admitting to no Revelation they want us to agree on all things with them. It's an odd viewpoint to me.

But it's making me see clearly that Revelation is necessary to stand in the church. If we aren't recieving revelation then we are putting ourselves at risk of falling. Without Revelation to know the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph is a prophet, or that Jesus is the Christ, I could not stand the trials I'm going through. I wouldn't be faithful to the Lord.

How can we have a relationship with God without Revelation?

And personal relationship with God should come with personal revelation

[Ahab]

12 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I've noticed that those who criticize the church and our leaders often claim that the prophet isn't getting Revelation. It seems to me that the problem isn't the lack of revelation for the prophet but the lack of revelation for the critic. What they are really saying is since they aren't getting Revelation, the leaders aren't. And yet despite admitting to no Revelation they want us to agree on all things with them. It's an odd viewpoint to me.

But it's making me see clearly that Revelation is necessary to stand in the church. If we aren't recieving revelation then we are putting ourselves at risk of falling. Without Revelation to know the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph is a prophet, or that Jesus is the Christ, I could not stand the trials I'm going through. I wouldn't be faithful to the Lord.

How can we have a relationship with God without Revelation?

I noticed that you didn't ask how people can be religious without personal revelation from God.  Most religous people could probably answer that one.  

Revelation,  most say, is in the Bible!  

A personal relationship with God is what makes the difference between what they have and what I have,  I think, and with what I have I get personal revelation. 

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Jeanne said:

The thing is..if revelation is not received consistently and in a concise way, it throws the whole restoration into a fix.  No one is receiving revelation as JS did..so why blame critics?

Really? No one? I get revelation almost every day. I know many saints much more in tune then I am. I am guessing apostles get even more.

That they are not sharing it is not proof that it is not there and they are not under an obligation to share it all with anyone.

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, canard78 said:

Can you give an example of something said by a prophet in the last 50 years that could only have come from God?

In other words, what has been said that couldn't possibly have been anything but revelation?

We are generally not supposed to give signs to sign-seekers.

[Ahab]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Really? No one? I get revelation almost every day. I know many saints much more in tune then I am. I am guessing apostles get even more.

That they are not sharing it is not proof that it is not there and they are not under an obligation to share it all with anyone.

It's not even possible to share it with others,  at least not any more than Joseph could share it.

When something comes from God to us, personally, we call that revelation,  but when what comes from God to us is then shared with somebody else we call that our own testimony which most people will not take our word for unless God also tells them the same thing he told us.

Big difference.

[Jeanne]

41 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Really? No one? I get revelation almost every day. I know many saints much more in tune then I am. I am guessing apostles get even more.

That they are not sharing it is not proof that it is not there and they are not under an obligation to share it all with anyone.

I wasn't talking about personal revelation..but revelations from a President of the Church.

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I wasn't talking about personal revelation..but revelations from a President of the Church.

If you mean a high volume of written and canonized revelations then no, we needed a ton to codify the foundation of the church and get the commandments specifically applicable to this dispensation. Lehi and Nephi got a lot more revelation then Jacob, Enos, and Jarom. Moses got more stuff written then every following prophet of his dispensation. Same appears to be true of Adam and Enoch as well. There tends to be a flood of revelation written at the beginning of a dispensation to get the ball rolling and then a lot more not recorded as well later. Jarom mentions that he had many revelations but what was written sufficed for the purpose of the plates.

Revelation is still being poured out on our leaders and our members and I am loving it. I highly recommend the process.

[Jeanne]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If you mean a high volume of written and canonized revelations then no, we needed a ton to codify the foundation of the church and get the commandments specifically applicable to this dispensation. Lehi and Nephi got a lot more revelation then Jacob, Enos, and Jarom. Moses got more stuff written then every following prophet of his dispensation. Same appears to be true of Adam and Enoch as well. There tends to be a flood of revelation written at the beginning of a dispensation to get the ball rolling and then a lot more not recorded as well later. Jarom mentions that he had many revelations but what was written sufficed for the purpose of the plates.

Revelation is still being poured out on our leaders and our members and I am loving it. I highly recommend the process.

But in order for my personal revelation to be valid..it has to agree with yours.  Even on this board we are still trying to figure out if the Family Proclamation is revelation.  It is a confusing mess..

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

But in order for my personal revelation to be valid..it has to agree with yours.  Even on this board we are still trying to figure out if the Family Proclamation is revelation.  It is a confusing mess..

I just don't care. I know it was issued by the apostles and was inspired by God and his teachings and is correct and that is good enough for me.

For personal revelation to be valid it has to be revelation.

[Bob Crockett]

6 hours ago, Jeanne said:

The thing is..if revelation is not received consistently and in a concise way, it throws the whole restoration into a fix.  No one is receiving revelation as JS did..so why blame critics?

Like an ax head floating in water?  Like writing on a wall?  Do critics read their Bible?  No.  They continue to believe in fortune cookie revelation.  Let's have some text, make it clear for all to read and understand.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Bob Crockett

[Jeanne]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I just don't care. I know it was issued by the apostles and was inspired by God and his teachings and is correct and that is good enough for me.

For personal revelation to be valid it has to be revelation.

You just proved my point..but I don't care.  Enough already. We are just going around in circles and as far as I am concerned you are not open enough.You can't seem to see the forest for the trees.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Jeanne

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

You just proved my point..but I don't care.  Enough already. We are just going around in circles and as far as I am concerned you are not open enough.You can't seem to see the forest for the trees.

Unless said point was incredibly subtle I don't think so. I am concerned I am too open so I am hoping the truth is somewhere in the middle and I am just right.

[Scott Lloyd]

16 hours ago, canard78 said:

I feel exactly the same way about the LDS leadership. They believe that their strongly held opinions are messages from God when instead they are nothing more than strongly held opinions.

Your belief that God has revealed that they are actually prophets is more of the same.

And yes... this is my strongly held opinion.

 

Can you give an example of something said by a prophet in the last 50 years that could only have come from God?

In other words, what has been said that couldn't possibly have been anything but revelation?

 

 

And therein lies the problem. 

It has been a while since I "blogged," but the last time I did, I spent time looking into this question. 

At the end of the blog are seven examples of people receiving revelation. Can you spot the Mormon revelations in the redacted version?

If a person gets revelation that infant baptism is needed or that a book is the only true scripture... what is the source? Are they all getting revelation?

Please consider the link I posted in my new thread, "When We Differ with the United Voice of the Brethren."

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If you mean a high volume of written and canonized revelations then no, we needed a ton to codify the foundation of the church and get the commandments specifically applicable to this dispensation. Lehi and Nephi got a lot more revelation then Jacob, Enos, and Jarom. Moses got more stuff written then every following prophet of his dispensation. Same appears to be true of Adam and Enoch as well. There tends to be a flood of revelation written at the beginning of a dispensation to get the ball rolling and then a lot more not recorded as well later. Jarom mentions that he had many revelations but what was written sufficed for the purpose of the plates.

Revelation is still being poured out on our leaders and our members and I am loving it. I highly recommend the process.

 

4 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Like an ax head floating in water?  Like writing on a wall?  Do critics read their Bible?  No.  They continue to believe in fortune cookie revelation.  Let's have some text, make it clear for all to read and understand.

Nobody wants fortune cookie revelation.  Nobody is seeking signs here.  Nobody is even asking for new D&C sections every year.  Nobody is even seeking new doctrines.

And I actually agree with the Nehor's point about the dispensation head receiving more revelation than his successors as the gospel is restored each time.  However, we also shouldn't fail to see what the decline in direct revelation in each and every other dispensation led to: apostasy.

I fail to see why the faithful member should be mocked for seeking to hear the direct word of God, especially from our leaders.  We have record of all kinds of revelation to the leaders for the first 100 years of the Church, on all kinds of issues.  At some point we began to have to just trust that this happened and accept our leader's teachings as inspired on faith alone.

Perhaps that was God's plan - walk by faith, not by sight, as times progress.

[3DOP]

21 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I've noticed that those who criticize the church and our leaders often claim that the prophet isn't getting Revelation. It seems to me that the problem isn't the lack of revelation for the prophet but the lack of revelation for the critic. What they are really saying is since they aren't getting Revelation, the leaders aren't. And yet despite admitting to no Revelation they want us to agree on all things with them. It's an odd viewpoint to me.

But it's making me see clearly that Revelation is necessary to stand in the church. If we aren't recieving revelation then we are putting ourselves at risk of falling. Without Revelation to know the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph is a prophet, or that Jesus is the Christ, I could not stand the trials I'm going through. I wouldn't be faithful to the Lord.

How can we have a relationship with God without Revelation?

Very refreshing viewpoint Avatar. 

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Nobody wants fortune cookie revelation.  Nobody is seeking signs here.  Nobody is even asking for new D&C sections every year.  Nobody is even seeking new doctrines.

And I actually agree with the Nehor's point about the dispensation head receiving more revelation than his successors as the gospel is restored each time.  However, we also shouldn't fail to see what the decline in direct revelation in each and every other dispensation led to: apostasy.

I fail to see why the faithful member should be mocked for seeking to hear the direct word of God, especially from our leaders.  We have record of all kinds of revelation to the leaders for the first 100 years of the Church, on all kinds of issues.  At some point we began to have to just trust that this happened and accept our leader's teachings as inspired on faith alone.

Perhaps that was God's plan - walk by faith, not by sight, as times progress.

Joseph Smith was one of those spiritual giants that come along once every Millenial or so. His successors have his mantle and all the gifts they need to lead and we will be okay. I do know that at least some of the apostles have received written revelations in the style Joseph Smith did of God speaking in first person but most are just for them. One apostle said he had his in a special password protected file.

They happen but I think to a degree we are being called up to become more of a prophet unto ourselves and for our own lives. In the days of Joseph everyone was an amateur and needed more help. Not to supplant the prophet or supersede his council but why not get "A revelation to the Nehor"? Plus, revelation is much more fun that way.

[canard78]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

We are generally not supposed to give signs to sign-seekers.

It's a beautiful get out clause isn't it?

Does the fact that prophets have revealed nothing previously unknown in the last 50 years give you more or less confidence in them?

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

However, we also shouldn't fail to see what the decline in direct revelation in each and every other dispensation led to: apostasy.

No, what has led to apostasy in each and every dispensation has been a rejection of God's authorised servants, the prophets.