JLHPROF Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: No, what has led to apostasy in each and every dispensation has been a rejection of God's authorised servants, the prophets. Uh, no. That's a nice thought, but I don't see how that is shown in each dispensational history. That's not what happened between the days of Paul and Peter and the time there were no more apostles called. More and more people converted to Christianity as more and more of the gospel teachings were altered without revelation, based on the thoughts (and probably feelings) of men instead of the word of the Lord.
The Nehor Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 8 hours ago, canard78 said: It's a beautiful get out clause isn't it? Does the fact that prophets have revealed nothing previously unknown in the last 50 years give you more or less confidence in them? I learned lots of unknown things from them. 2
busybee Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 22 hours ago, Jeanne said: The thing is..if revelation is not received consistently and in a concise way, it throws the whole restoration into a fix. No one is receiving revelation as JS did..so why blame critics? How can you be sure that "no one is receiving revelation as Joseph Smith did"? Is there anyway you can confirm this for me? Do you have any information that you can use to back up this statement? I guess you could say I'm issuing a CFR. How do you think he received revelation? And how do you think the manner that the prophet receives revelation today differs? (If you can answer the first part of this question) 1
canard78 Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 6 hours ago, The Nehor said: I learned lots of unknown things from them. Such as...?
The Nehor Posted January 12, 2016 Posted January 12, 2016 3 minutes ago, canard78 said: Such as...? How to be in a state of gratitude when you have little to be grateful for, the nature of Priesthood Keys, how to find peace in my soul, and the rites for binding demons to compel them to serve me. How did you miss all of that? 1
canard78 Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: How to be in a state of gratitude when you have little to be grateful for, the nature of Priesthood Keys, how to find peace in my soul, and the rites for binding demons to compel them to serve me. How did you miss all of that? You make me laugh. Thanks for always keeping things light. I'm very ready to recognise that they are well-meaning, thoughtful and wise individuals. They have lots of good advice and genuine advice.* That doesn't make them prophets though. *I probably missed the demon training talks due to the time difference or something...
The Nehor Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 55 minutes ago, canard78 said: That doesn't make them prophets though. Apostles are people with a special witness of Christ who are empowered to teach the Plan of Salvation to the world. Occasionally they prophesy of the future and be a seer and see thing coming and prepare (sometimes overtly by telling people and other times by just steering the ship of the Church). I think one of the best seer moments I can recall in my life was when President Hinckley gave a talk starting with Joseph and the years of plenty and famine directing us to get our houses in order as there were economic storms on the horizon. It was roughly seven years later that the economy hit its downturn. 2
canard78 Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 6 hours ago, The Nehor said: Apostles are people with a special witness of Christ who are empowered to teach the Plan of Salvation to the world. Occasionally they prophesy of the future and be a seer and see thing coming and prepare (sometimes overtly by telling people and other times by just steering the ship of the Church). I think one of the best seer moments I can recall in my life was when President Hinckley gave a talk starting with Joseph and the years of plenty and famine directing us to get our houses in order as there were economic storms on the horizon. It was roughly seven years later that the economy hit its downturn. Can you provide a link to that? I remember it too. I seem to recall. If I remember he also went out of his way to say it wasn't prophesy of calamity and rather good advice for all seasons (which it is).
stemelbow Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 On 1/11/2016 at 1:11 AM, Avatar4321 said: I've noticed that those who criticize the church and our leaders often claim that the prophet isn't getting Revelation. It seems to me that the problem isn't the lack of revelation for the prophet but the lack of revelation for the critic. What they are really saying is since they aren't getting Revelation, the leaders aren't. And yet despite admitting to no Revelation they want us to agree on all things with them. It's an odd viewpoint to me. But it's making me see clearly that Revelation is necessary to stand in the church. If we aren't recieving revelation then we are putting ourselves at risk of falling. Without Revelation to know the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph is a prophet, or that Jesus is the Christ, I could not stand the trials I'm going through. I wouldn't be faithful to the Lord. How can we have a relationship with God without Revelation? I think history has revealed that sometimes claimed revelation isn't revelation at all. So there's plenty of room to question any claimed revelation or truth. Anyone can question the claim to revelation as per the policy change, for instance. There's no clear revelation there, only claimed revelation. But the facts speak for themselves--no claim to revelation came out until months later, the policy had to be re-written after much criticism, it doesn't really mean anything in practical terms, after the clarification, other than to be a slap in people's faces. Revelation seems to be a tricky business. No one seems to have a good handle on it. was that revelation? Was that my own impression? Did I just assume I was right about something and felt good about it so it seemed like revelation? There is plenty of room in this space to see error creep in. And it has crept into the Church in the past and will again, I'm sure. We need to move away from the practice of seeing other members as critics and accept different viewpoints can be helpful in the long run. Because after all, no one, not even the prophet sees all things, sees clearly enough to understand it all. We need each other...we need not fight each other. 1
consiglieri Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 On 1/11/2016 at 0:11 AM, Avatar4321 said: I've noticed that those who criticize the church and our leaders often claim that the prophet isn't getting Revelation. It seems to me that the problem isn't the lack of revelation for the prophet but the lack of revelation for the critic. What they are really saying is since they aren't getting Revelation, the leaders aren't. And yet despite admitting to no Revelation they want us to agree on all things with them. It's an odd viewpoint to me. But it's making me see clearly that Revelation is necessary to stand in the church. If we aren't recieving revelation then we are putting ourselves at risk of falling. Without Revelation to know the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph is a prophet, or that Jesus is the Christ, I could not stand the trials I'm going through. I wouldn't be faithful to the Lord. How can we have a relationship with God without Revelation? I guess I don't fit your template, then. I receive revelation on a regular basis. And yet I believe the Church leaders do not. The main reason I believe they do not is because they do not claim to receive revelation. Or perhaps I should put that a little more clearly: On those rare occasions when they do claim revelation, it seems to be described in such watered-down terms as to be nothing more than a feeling that a certain decision is right. Because that happens every day with people and groups claiming no revelation, I see no reason to distinguish between the ordinary and the supernatural based upon the description leaders give. There is a quantum difference between the revelation claimed by Joseph Smith and the revelation claimed by today's leaders. Both qualitative and quantitative. 1
rockpond Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 On 1/11/2016 at 1:11 AM, Avatar4321 said: I've noticed that those who criticize the church and our leaders often claim that the prophet isn't getting Revelation. It seems to me that the problem isn't the lack of revelation for the prophet but the lack of revelation for the critic. What they are really saying is since they aren't getting Revelation, the leaders aren't. And yet despite admitting to no Revelation they want us to agree on all things with them. It's an odd viewpoint to me. But it's making me see clearly that Revelation is necessary to stand in the church. If we aren't recievingrevelation then we are putting ourselves at risk of falling. Without Revelation to know the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph is a prophet, or that Jesus is the Christ, I could not stand the trials I'm going through. I wouldn't be faithful to the Lord. How can we have a relationship with God without Revelation? Strawman. Who are the critics you are speaking of who are not receiving personal revelation? 1
The Nehor Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 9 hours ago, canard78 said: Can you provide a link to that? I remember it too. I seem to recall. If I remember he also went out of his way to say it wasn't prophesy of calamity and rather good advice for all seasons (which it is). No link right now. At work and hard to search on device. He did not say there was no calamity coming. He did specify that he was not prophesying years of famine.
Jeanne Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) 18 hours ago, The Nehor said: How to be in a state of gratitude when you have little to be grateful for, the nature of Priesthood Keys, how to find peace in my soul, and the rites for binding demons to compel them to serve me. How did you miss all of that? Has that not always been there for you? What is new?? During the same time during General Conference in Oct. 2001..America announces it is going to war...what we got was no new pierced earrings.. Edited January 13, 2016 by Jeanne
The Nehor Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 4 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Has that not always been there for you? What is new?? During the same time during General Conference in Oct. 2001..America announces it is going to war...what we got was no new pierced earrings.. Which was new. Thanks for the reminder.
Jeanne Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Which was new. Thanks for the reminder. Are you talking about a new revelation on earrings? Well..okay..that was kinda new. Surely more important than anything else going on in the world.
The Nehor Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 16 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Are you talking about a new revelation on earrings? Well..okay..that was kinda new. Surely more important than anything else going on in the world. Kind of like curing leprosy by bathing in the River Jordan I admit.
Ahab Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 3 hours ago, Jeanne said: Are you talking about a new revelation on earrings? Well..okay..that was kinda new. Surely more important than anything else going on in the world. It helps to bear in mind that what is new to some is not new to others. And that there really never is anything totally new because it came from something or someone who has been around in some form or another forever. So what would you like to know next?
Gray Posted January 13, 2016 Posted January 13, 2016 22 hours ago, The Nehor said: and the rites for binding demons to compel them to serve me. How did you miss all of that? Teach me your ways, Nehor
Tacenda Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/e/127-are-all-revelations-from-god/ Thought this would be of interest. Charles Harrell and Van Hale discussing if all revelations are from God. Charles mentioned in the second podcast that past revelations were revised from the past, this he found in the Joseph Smith Papers Project. This was interesting so I went back to the first of the two podcasts with Charles Harrell and am listening presently. I wish there were transcripts!
Glenn101 Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 16 minutes ago, Tacenda said: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/e/127-are-all-revelations-from-god/ Thought this would be of interest. Charles Harrell and Van Hale discussing if all revelations are from God. Charles mentioned in the second podcast that past revelations were revised from the past, this he found in the Joseph Smith Papers Project. This was interesting so I went back to the first of the two podcasts with Charles Harrell and am listening presently. I wish there were transcripts! I would have to go back and research this a bit if I am CFR'd but there were changes in revelations from the Book of Commandments to the Doctrine and Covenants. If one reads the scriptures a bit, it is apparent that God repeats Himself, sometimes over and over. This makes remembering easier. Moroni appeared to Joseph three times with the same message. Stands to reason that God can repeat the same revelation and actually add to it as He sees fit. I think that the brethren work very hard to ensure that they know what they are publishing is the mind and the will of the Lord. I am much more comfortable trusting their efforts compared to the litany of criticism that so many policy announcements are met with. I have this morbid obsession with the Mormon Archipelago after every General Conference, to see how many bloggers would take to their computers to denounce this or that talk, tell us just how the prophets and apostles were wrong on this or that subject. If one were to accept that the internet minions were more in tune with God on this subject or that subject, the inevitable conclusion would be to ditch the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and believe in the Church of the Bloggernacle/Internet.
Tacenda Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Glenn101 said: I would have to go back and research this a bit if I am CFR'd but there were changes in revelations from the Book of Commandments to the Doctrine and Covenants. If one reads the scriptures a bit, it is apparent that God repeats Himself, sometimes over and over. This makes remembering easier. Moroni appeared to Joseph three times with the same message. Stands to reason that God can repeat the same revelation and actually add to it as He sees fit. I think that the brethren work very hard to ensure that they know what they are publishing is the mind and the will of the Lord. I am much more comfortable trusting their efforts compared to the litany of criticism that so many policy announcements are met with. I have this morbid obsession with the Mormon Archipelago after every General Conference, to see how many bloggers would take to their computers to denounce this or that talk, tell us just how the prophets and apostles were wrong on this or that subject. If one were to accept that the internet minions were more in tune with God on this subject or that subject, the inevitable conclusion would be to ditch the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and believe in the Church of the Bloggernacle/Internet. After reading my post, it appears I'm almost giddy about the revelations being changed or revised. Wow, I can see how you'd respond the way you have. I'm so very awed at those like you that do the concrete research like you do, and feel very inadequate to respond, all I have are podcasts, etc. I'm not very good with reading anything, poor eyesight with books etc. So the internet is alot of where I've gotten my information.
Jeanne Posted January 14, 2016 Posted January 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: http://mormonmisc.podbean.com/e/127-are-all-revelations-from-god/ Thought this would be of interest. Charles Harrell and Van Hale discussing if all revelations are from God. Charles mentioned in the second podcast that past revelations were revised from the past, this he found in the Joseph Smith Papers Project. This was interesting so I went back to the first of the two podcasts with Charles Harrell and am listening presently. I wish there were transcripts! Me too!
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