smac97 Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) Here: Quote An apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said in a worldwide speech Sunday night that the LDS Church's decision regarding same-sex Mormon couples was revelation given to President of the church Thomas S. Monson. The decision announced that members of the Utah-based faith in same-sex marriages would be considered "apostates," and forbids their children from becoming members until they turn 18 and renounce the practice of gay marriage. In a speech to young adults within the LDS faith, Apostle Russell M. Nelson, head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, announced that President Monson received the instructions regarding the decision directly from God. "Each of us during that sacred moment felt a spiritual confirmation," he said. "It was our privilege as apostles to sustain what had been revealed to President Monson." Interestingly enough, just yesterday the Trib posted the following article: Quote Why top Mormon leaders’ private writings may never become public By PEGGY FLETCHER STACK | The Salt Lake Tribune First Published Jan 09 2016 03:36PM If you want to know about Mormon seer stones, secret polygamous wives, divine visions, personal revelations, bank failures and baptisms, callings and excommunications, jail terms and healing miracles, debates over prophetic succession and disagreements about the nature of Zion — they're all there, in documents, journals, correspondence and histories published by the LDS Church itself. Materials from the first decades of Mormonism in the early 1800s through the end of the 19th century have been scrutinized, analyzed and criticized from every possible angle and in public. The modern church? Not so much. How, for example, did the new policy dubbing LDS same-sex couples "apostates" and barring their children from religious rites come to be? Did it originate with the apostles, the governing First Presidency or President Thomas S. Monson himself? Did it go through typical channels? Were all the higher-ups in agreement? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declined to provide specifics, which means members and researchers may never know the full story. That's because the only people who can say what transpired in such cases are Mormon prophets, apostles and other top leaders, and their journals — as well as the minutes of their meetings — are off-limits to researchers, or at least severely restricted. Well, the Church has provided some measure of "specifics" now. I wonder if this may end up being a "bridge too far" (or a "last straw" - pick your metaphor) for some members of the Church (such as those who have supposed/hoped that the change in the CHI was merely a procedural change rather than a revelatory/doctrinal development). Thoughts? Thanks, -Smac Edited January 11, 2016 by smac97 3
thesometimesaint Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 I eagerly await its inclusion into our D&C at the next General Conference. 1
BookofMormonLuvr Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Have the said when they are going to release the text of the revelation? Will it become D&C 139 or Official Declaration #3? 3
Duncan Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 who knows, but the Lord giveth and he taketh away, he gave the command to practice polygamy and then he told them to stop it. I am not comparing polygamy to SSM but just the Lord can give revelation to start doing something and then revelation to stop doing it
smac97 Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 27 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I eagerly await its inclusion into our D&C at the next General Conference. What makes you think it will be canonized? Or are you just being facetious/sarcastic? Thanks, -Smac 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 1 minute ago, smac97 said: end What makes you think it will be canonized? Or are you just being facetious/sarcastic? Thanks, -Smac I tend to like things down in writing. It eliminates confusion.
Calm Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) This may change the dialogue a bit. Something I came across that appears to have been actually posted less than an hour after the link that Smac posted went up that makes me think the author hadn't seen this yet. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon/2016/01/god-is-silent-on-same-sex-marriage-how-opinion-becomes-doctrine/ Quote So it is curious that with all this access to the mind of God, with the promise of fore warning and prophetic instruction, our scriptures are silent about Same Sex Marriage or indeed homosexuality in general. There are simply no passages in the Book of Mormon, and no revelation from Joseph Smith, or any subsequent President of the Church on the matter. Edited January 11, 2016 by Calm 2
smac97 Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 24 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: I tend to like things down in writing. It eliminates confusion. The change in the CHI is not in writing? And Elder Nelson has now publicly declared the change to have been the result of revelation. So what "confusion" do you think exists? Let me be clear that I am not looking for a scrap here. I'm not looking to argue. I just want to understand. Thanks, -Smac 3
Calm Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Speaking of Stack, here is the Trib on this: http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/3391057-155/lds-gay-policy-came-from-god Quote After same-sex marriage became legal in several countries, including the United States, the LDS Church's top 15 leaders wrestled with what to do, weighed all the ramifications, fasted, prayed, met in the temple and sought God's guidance on the issue. Balancing their understanding of Mormon doctrine about the "plan of salvation," which is built on male-female marriage, with compassion for children of same-sex couples, Russell M. Nelson, head of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said Sunday night, "we considered countless permutations and combinations of possible scenarios that could arise." Then President Thomas S. Monson, considered a "prophet, seer and revelator" in the 15 million-member Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, declared "the mind of the Lord and the will of the Lord." 2
Calm Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Also: Quote Nelson explained that revelation from the Lord to his servants is a sacred process. "The [three-member] First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles counsel together and share all the Lord has directed us to understand and to feel, individually and collectively," he said. "And then, we watch the Lord move upon the president of the church to proclaim the Lord's will." He said that protocol was followed when Monson, in 2012, announced lower minimum ages for full-time Mormon missionary service and again late last year with the new policy on same-sex couples and their children. I remember this being said about the lowering of the ages at the time by an apostle, but I could never find a reference later on when I wanted to as an example of a revelation that had been claimed. Quote "Prophets see ahead. They see the harrowing dangers the adversary has placed, or will yet place, in our path," Nelson said. "Prophets also foresee the grand possibilities and privileges awaiting those who listen with the intent to obey. " ... You may not always understand every declaration of a living prophet," he added. "But when you know a prophet is a prophet, you can approach the Lord in humility and faith and ask for your own witness about whatever his prophet has proclaimed." 2
Calm Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) Watch it yourself (hope they make a transcript): https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/worldwide-devotional/2016/01?lang=eng Edited January 11, 2016 by Calm
Robert F. Smith Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 18 minutes ago, Calm said: This may change the dialogue a bit. Something I came across that appears to have been actually posted less than an hour after the link that Smac posted went up that makes me think the author hadn't seen this yet. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon/2016/01/god-is-silent-on-same-sex-marriage-how-opinion-becomes-doctrine/ Quote So it is curious that with all this access to the mind of God, with the promise of fore warning and prophetic instruction, our scriptures are silent about Same Sex Marriage or indeed homosexuality in general. There are simply no passages in the Book of Mormon, and no revelation from Joseph Smith, or any subsequent President of the Church on the matter. That is Ganesh Cherian, “God is Silent on Same Sex Marriage – How Opinion Becomes Doctrine,” KiwiMormon, January 11, 2016, and he is completely unfamiliar with scholarly discussion on the issue: Jacob Milgrom, “Does the Bible Prohibit Homosexuality,” Bible Review, 9/6 (Dec 1993):11ff., online at http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?PubID=BSBR&Volume=9&Issue=6&ArticleID=3 , which brought reader replies in BR 10/2 at http://members.bib-arch.org/search.asp?PubID=BSBR&Volume=10&Issue=02&ArticleID=01 . Cf. Lev 18:22, 20:13. We have had a full discussion of this on this board: Wade Englund, “SSM And The Exploitation Of Children,” Feb 19, 2014, online at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62880-ssm-and-the-exploitation-of-children/ (the demographic data are indicative of the negative effects of the gay marriage lifestyle).
Stargazer Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 smac97, where did you get your first quote? Which "worldwide speech Sunday night" are you referring to, and how can I access it for myself?
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Calm said: This may change the dialogue a bit. Something I came across that appears to have been actually posted less than an hour after the link that Smac posted went up that makes me think the author hadn't seen this yet. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon/2016/01/god-is-silent-on-same-sex-marriage-how-opinion-becomes-doctrine/ Quote So it is curious that with all this access to the mind of God, with the promise of fore warning and prophetic instruction, our scriptures are silent about Same Sex Marriage or indeed homosexuality in general. There are simply no passages in the Book of Mormon, and no revelation from Joseph Smith, or any subsequent President of the Church on the matter. As a historian, I continue to be dumbfounded that people would expect the Bible, the Book of Mormon or any of the early LDS prophets to offer anachronistic 'instruction' on homosexuality or same-sex marriage. I also find it interesting that Bro Ganesh sees Mormon's writings on infant baptism and Jacob's writings on polygamy as somehow authoritative whilst trying to convince reader's that the clear and consistent teachings of the latter-day prophets from Spencer W. Kimball forward have been merely 'opinion'. <sigh> I would like to believe that Pres Nelson's words will 'change the dialogue a bit', but I'm certainly not holding my breath ... especially after having taught on Helaman 13:24-28 in Sunday school yesterday. Edited January 11, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan 4
Bob Crockett Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: That is Ganesh Cherian, “God is Silent on Same Sex Marriage – How Opinion Becomes Doctrine,” KiwiMormon, January 11, 2016, and he is completely unfamiliar with scholarly discussion on the issue: Jacob Milgrom, “Does the Bible Prohibit Homosexuality,” Bible Review, 9/6 (Dec 1993):11ff., online at http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?PubID=BSBR&Volume=9&Issue=6&ArticleID=3 , which brought reader replies in BR 10/2 at http://members.bib-arch.org/search.asp?PubID=BSBR&Volume=10&Issue=02&ArticleID=01 . Cf. Lev 18:22, 20:13. We have had a full discussion of this on this board: Wade Englund, “SSM And The Exploitation Of Children,” Feb 19, 2014, online at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/62880-ssm-and-the-exploitation-of-children/ (the demographic data are indicative of the negative effects of the gay marriage lifestyle). I remember Milgrom's article well, thinking that, well, any sin can be explained away. But I missed the replies.
Popular Post carbon dioxide Posted January 11, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 11, 2016 "So it is curious that with all this access to the mind of God, with the promise of fore warning and prophetic instruction, our scriptures are silent about Same Sex Marriage or indeed homosexuality in general. There are simply no passages in the Book of Mormon, and no revelation from Joseph Smith, or any subsequent President of the Church on the matter." Perhaps the reason is that the idea of SSM was so completely absurd in BOM times and even JS times that there would be no reason even to consider it. Even 25 years ago few people entertained the concept seriously. I can think of many other things that not mentioned in any revelations but there is no reason to ever take them as serious issues. God does not have to address ever possible wicked practice that man might come up with. Some of this stuff we should figure out ourselves from what has been given. 5
Calm Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Stargazer said: smac97, where did you get your first quote? Which "worldwide speech Sunday night" are you referring to, and how can I access it for myself? Posted the link to the devotional, his part of it starts probably a half an hour in iirc. Edited January 11, 2016 by Calm
Calm Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: <sigh> I would like to believe that Pres Nelson's words will 'change the dialogue a bit', but I'm certainly not holding my breath ... especially after having taught on Helaman 13:24-28 in Sunday school yesterday. When I said "a bit" I was being completely accurate in my thoughts. I don't think it will change it much, but it will have a slight effect. add-on: apparently I was wrong, see rockpond's response below Edited January 11, 2016 by Calm 1
JAHS Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 18 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: 19 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: This may change the dialogue a bit. Something I came across that appears to have been actually posted less than an hour after the link that Smac posted went up that makes me think the author hadn't seen this yet. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon/2016/01/god-is-silent-on-same-sex-marriage-how-opinion-becomes-doctrine/ Interesting that the Patheos article no longer exists.
smac97 Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Calm said: This may change the dialogue a bit. Something I came across that appears to have been actually posted less than an hour after the link that Smac posted went up that makes me think the author hadn't seen this yet. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kiwimormon/2016/01/god-is-silent-on-same-sex-marriage-how-opinion-becomes-doctrine/ Quote "Guest post from Ganesh Cherian of Wellington, New Zealand As Mormons we pride ourselves on being led by a prophet. We believe we are in a privileged position to know the will of God and this also affirmed in our scripture: We also believe that God has given us ‘The Book of Mormon’ to help navigate the perilous times of the last days, and then added specific direction contained in the Doctrine & Covenants. So it is curious that with all this access to the mind of God, with the promise of fore warning and prophetic instruction, our scriptures are silent about Same Sex Marriage or indeed homosexuality in general. There are simply no passages in the Book of Mormon, and no revelation from Joseph Smith, or any subsequent President of the Church on the matter." And this: Quote The Brethren have since labeled Same Sex Marriage as ‘Apostate’ requiring church discipline. They have excluded children of same gender relationships from all ordinances (Handbook 1 – Nov 2015). This was done just weeks after a General Conference when this change could have been easily presented and voted upon. It also excludes the voices of the woman general auxiliary presidencies, who we were assured would be consulted on significant matters affecting families. Most concerning however is the fact that President Monson (though now apparently responsible for this policy) has never personally addressed this change nor has he spoken to this issue in all of his tenure as prophet. Well, this article was outdated almost as soon as it hit the web. Unless Mr. Cherian is suggesting that the Quorum of the Twelve has executed a coup d'etat, we now know that the current President of the Church has received a revelation on this subject. The article goes on: Quote The LDS church has a lot of explaining to do! So is it possible that leaders’ opinion have influenced church policy and led the church on a course contrary to the will of God? Well, we now have the President of the Quorum of the Twelve publicly declaring the church policy to have been a revelation from God (I suspect that the general precept was revelatory, and that the precept was then put into the verbiage we now see in the CHI). More: Quote “All that we teach in this Church ought to be couched in the scriptures. It ought to be found in the scriptures. We ought to choose our texts from the scriptures. If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man’s own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth” (“Using the Scriptures in Our Church Assignments,” Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, 13). Are we also now being led by fear or loyalty? Is our current practise the result of opinions that have become policy, that have become doctrine and that now hold us to a religious obligation to support said doctrine? It seems that the answer to "Is our current practise the result of opinions that have become policy" can now be definitively answered with "no." More: Quote If God is silent on Same Sex Marriage, why aren’t we? Surely there are greater injustices in the world than people who want to legitimise their commitment to each other. If we’ve learnt anything from repetition in scripture, it’s that pride is the worst sin. Maybe God is not silent – it’s just that our vanity is stopping us from hearing what He is really trying to say! And if Christ is at the head of this Church perhaps we need a clarification on what obedience to our leaders actually entails particularly in light of a history of flawed policy that masquerades as doctrine. First, God has not bee "silent on Same Sex Marriage" for a quite a while. Second, SSM is not, I think, a matter of "injustice." So it's kinda weird to characterize it that way, or to suggest that the Church has done so. Third, the notion that this self-selected fellow presuming to dictate to the Brethren what they should and should not address in their capacities as church leaders reminds me of the following event recorded in John 12: Quote 1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. 3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. 4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him, 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. 7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. 8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always. My concern is that there are members of the Church who, when presuming to tell publicly declare to the Brethren what they ought to be focusing on, are making the same error - and perhaps even exhibiting the same ulterior motive - as that described above. Judas didn't care about the poor, but he resorted to false piety about the poor to disguise his motive. I suspect that some who presume to tell the Brethren to keep their collective noses out of the business of Same-Sex Marriage, and to instead focus on . . . something else, are not as concerned with that "something else" as they are about the Brethren taking the Church in a direction that doesn't jibe with what's currently trendy and popular with the world. Mr. Cherian concludes with this rather offensive calumny against the Brethren: Quote More importantly I am of the feeling that if anyone else….even someone you trust, asks you to feel that another human being is less than, unworthy of His love or His invitation…. its ok to challenge that. After all we have some modern scriptures that refute that. The Brethren have said nothing that can be reasonably described or construed as saying that "another human being is less than, unworthy of His love or His invitation." He is simply bearing false witness here. Against the Lord's anointed. That ain't cool. I hope he has a change of heart. -Smac Edited January 11, 2016 by smac97 4
Calm Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) Okay, that is a surprise. No cached version available either. Edited January 11, 2016 by Calm
rockpond Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 1 hour ago, smac97 said: Here: Interestingly enough, just yesterday the Trib posted the following article: Well, the Church has provided some measure of "specifics" now. I wonder if this may end up being a "bridge too far" (or a "last straw" - pick your metaphor) for some members of the Church (such as those who has supposed/hoped that the change in the CHI was merely a procedural change rather than a revelatory/doctrinal development). Thoughts? Thanks, -Smac I just finished listening. Not feeling any spiritual confirmation on this one. Just darkness. So, yes, a "bridge too far". Enjoy your church folks. I'm gonna have to figure out a graceful exit for me and my family. 3
sunstoned Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: I eagerly await its inclusion into our D&C at the next General Conference. I wonder which one they will include. The original or the clarified version that came out a week later. 3
Stargazer Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 10 minutes ago, Calm said: Posted the link to the devotional, his part of it starts probably a half an hour in iirc. Ah, very good. Thankyou.
rockpond Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 5 minutes ago, sunstoned said: I wonder which one they will include. The original or the clarified version that came out a week later. Interesting that the revealed "mind and will of God" was so confusing. I thought God was not the author of confusion. Also interesting that the prophets, seers, and revelators didn't feel a need to share such a revelation with the general membership of the church until they were publicly outed by an "apostate". Wonder how they'll recover from this one. 2
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