CA Steve Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 But if they are no longer a member, if they stay would they then have to start paying the higher tuition fees that non LDS students pay?If they are no longer members and wish to remain as students they should be able to do so under the very same rules and costs that apply to non members.If they have a scholarship, it could be subject to reevaluation and adjusted to reflect non membership status, IOW the student might have to start paying the difference between what their scholarship provided and the additional fees for a non - member.
stemelbow Posted October 6, 2015 Author Posted October 6, 2015 I've said it before, I'll say it again: there's room for discussion about how BYU should treat a student who experiences a loss of faith and comes clean about it to university officials and/or to their ecclesiastical leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, that same room for discussion vanishes if someone loses his or her faith and lies about it to maintain a continuing ecclesiastical endorsement so as to continue receiving the reduced tuition rate available to members of the Church of Jesus Christ, that is a totally different animal. I can't imagine how someone who does that could feel comfortable maintaining his enrollment at BYU. In fact, I can scarcely imagine how someone who loses his faith but is open about it could feel comfortable at BYU. Why not transfer? "But, but, I'll lose credits!" Yep; that kind of thing happens in the real world sometimes. I transferred. I lost credits. I jumped from the fire back into the frying pan when I took some lower division credits that were required for my major. (Hell, I even did the same thing seventeen years later when, trying to compensate for my lack of licensure in my would-be chosen profession and looking to obtain some worthwhile credential to demonstrate my acumen in the field, I called the National Association of Legal Assistants and said, "Hi. I have a law degree. What do I have to do to take your Certified Paralegal exam?" and the person with whom I spoke said, "Oh, no problem. Just take 15 Paralegal Studies credits." I wanted to ask, "Did you miss the part where I said I have a law degree?" But I didn't. I swallowed my pride and, in the words of Elder Steven E. Snow when describing the reaction of his ancestor when that ancestor was called to go settle Southern Utah, I "looked, and spat, and said, 'Alright.'" And just think if BYU just changes it's silly rule and expectations of students, none of this would be a problem at all. Your argument seems to support the notion that BYU should do away with this policy more than anything. So have at it. I personally dn't condemn individuals for lying each and every time. We all lie. I just wish them the best and move on. Not sure why you're so upset about it. Haven't you ever lied?
Gray Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 LIKE! With the added, the students should abide in the rules for non LDS students.And a question...do Catholic students at Notre Dame have the same policy if they quit belief? I noticed they, like BYU, allow non Catholic students to attend and may even have them take some religion courses and keep certain standards, but couldn't find anything about students that quit the Catholic church. Good question - I don't know what Catholic schools generally do around this issue
Gray Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 Utter nonsense. When you commit to an institution be they public, or private, you agree to follow their rules. Have the basic honesty to stand by your commitments or leave. That's fine, but in this case the rules don't permit religious freedom for LDS students so long as they attend. 1
longview Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 Why can't the policy be changed so that a student who wishes to leave the church can do so and still remain a student, as long as he/she agrees to abide by the same standards that current non LDS students are required to live?LDS students get a break on their tuition. If they show "varialbleness" then they have essentially breached their contract with BYU and get a "dishonorable discharge". Non-LDS students pay more and at the same time agree to live by the standards of the school, even take institute classes. Jesus said something along this line: "count up the cost of discipleship before making this commitment." They need to have their eyes open BEFORE enrolling.
thesometimesaint Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 I agree. But is it wrong to lobby to have the rules changed? Nothing. There are established ways to go about changing the rules at BYU. But refusing to follow the rules, after you've already agreed to them isn't a particularly effective way in changing the rules. BYU's mission is to train LDS members to be highly educated Church leader/members. It's like voluntarily joining the US military. If you change your mind about its mission and methods. Don't expect them to keep paying you. Resign your Commission or at your Expiration of Term of Service leave.
thesometimesaint Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 And just think if BYU just changes it's silly rule and expectations of students, none of this would be a problem at all. Your argument seems to support the notion that BYU should do away with this policy more than anything. So have at it. I personally dn't condemn individuals for lying each and every time. We all lie. I just wish them the best and move on. Not sure why you're so upset about it. Haven't you ever lied? :shok: That is breathtaking.
Senator Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 Nothing. There are established ways to go about changing the rules at BYU. But refusing to follow the rules, after you've already agreed to them isn't a particularly effective way in changing the rules. BYU's mission is to train LDS members to be highly educated Church leader/members. It's like voluntarily joining the US military. If you change your mind about its mission and methods. Don't expect them to keep paying you. Resign your Commission or at your Expiration of Term of Service leave. What are the established ways? Is the professor breaking the rules by declining to speak at the conference?
CA Steve Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 LDS students get a break on their tuition. If they show "varialbleness" then they have essentially breached their contract with BYU and get a "dishonorable discharge". Non-LDS students pay more and at the same time agree to live by the standards of the school, even take institute classes. Jesus said something along this line: "count up the cost of discipleship before making this commitment." They need to have their eyes open BEFORE enrolling.How is a student who wishes to leave the church but at the same time agrees to maintain all the standards and costs a non member student is required to maintain showing "varialbleness"? Every objection I have seen so far has added in some variable when the deconverted student is no longer maintaining BYU standards.That is not what I am asking. If the student in question is willing to continue to abide by the rules and pay the additional costs, it seems we are punishing someone purely on the basis of a religious choice, not for any change in the standards by which they are living. By the way the argument that they are breaking the rules by deconverting is exactly why we are asking why the rule cannot be changed since it seems that the only issue in question is one of religious choice. BYU does not have to change its standards for a non member to make such a rule change. It would simple mean that the student would now be treated like any other non member student. Who is adversely affected by such a policy change? No one.
Sleeper Cell Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 And just think if BYU just changes it's silly rule and expectations of students, none of this would be a problem at all. Your argument seems to support the notion that BYU should do away with this policy more than anything. So have at it. I personally dn't condemn individuals for lying each and every time. We all lie. I just wish them the best and move on. Not sure why you're so upset about it. Haven't you ever lied? So a rule, which, in your opinion, violates freedom of religion is a “silly rule?” Doesn’t that sort of trivialize “freedom of religion?” Oh BYU, stop fighting freedom of religion, please. And just think if BYU just changes it's silly rule and expectations of students, none of this would be a problem at all.
CA Steve Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 So if a non member student decided to convert, is he/she now eligible for membership tuition credits?
Bob Crockett Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) You obviously do not understand what freedom of religion is. You certainly are correct. The posters on this board are just absurd, rockpond and stemelbow and gray. They can disagree with BYU's or the Church's policy for what it is, and perhaps they might have something there, but to invoke religious freedom to do so is nutso. So, the Orthodox Sephardim do not admit to their congregrations Sephardim who marry outside the faith, and the Sephardim also do not admit converts. That means that if a widowed Sephardim marries outside his faith, his children who might have been going to a Sephardim school can no longer do so. Is that a religious freedom issue? I have a prominent Baptist school in my valley. They also have a liberal studies program; one can obtain a secular degree. If a student joins the LDS church, they are expelled. Is that a religous freedom issue? I applied to a doctoral program at Fuller Theological Seminary. I wanted to study NT history. I was told I would not be admitted because I needed an ecclesiastical endorsement from somebody other than a Mormon bishop. Is that a religious freedom issue? For these examples, should I be outraged that these institutions are discriminating against non-believers? Edited October 6, 2015 by Bob Crockett
CA Steve Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 You certainly are correct. The posters on this board are just absurd, rockpond and stemelbow and gray. They can disagree with BYU's or the Church's policy for what it is, and perhaps they might have something there, but to invoke religious freedom to do so is nutso. So, the Orthodox Sephardim do not admit to their congregrations Sephardim who marry outside the faith, and the Sephardim also do not admit converts. That means that if a widowed Sephardim marries outside his faith, his children who might have been going to a Sephardim school can no longer do so. Is that a religious freedom issue? I have a prominent Baptist school in my valley. They also have a liberal studies program; one can obtain a secular degree. If a student joins the LDS church, they are expelled. Is that a religous freedom issue? I applied to a doctoral program at Fuller Theological Seminary. I wanted to study NT history. I was told I would not be admitted because I needed an ecclesiastical endorsement from somebody other than a Mormon bishop. Is that a religious freedom issue? For these examples, should I be outraged that these institutions are discriminating against non-believers?Do these institutions have policies which treat former believers different from non-believers? 1
CV75 Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 http://www.freebyu.org/prominent-scholar-boycotts-byu-laws-annual-religious-freedom-conference-in-protest-over-byus-religious-discrimination/Oh BYU, stop fighting freedom of religion, please.Ah yes, the secular freedom to define and prescribe religious freedom... If he had any guts he'd go to the conference and make his point in person!
Gray Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 You certainly are correct. The posters on this board are just absurd, rockpond and stemelbow and gray. They can disagree with BYU's or the Church's policy for what it is, and perhaps they might have something there, but to invoke religious freedom to do so is nutso. So, the Orthodox Sephardim do not admit to their congregrations Sephardim who marry outside the faith, and the Sephardim also do not admit converts. That means that if a widowed Sephardim marries outside his faith, his children who might have been going to a Sephardim school can no longer do so. Is that a religious freedom issue? I have a prominent Baptist school in my valley. They also have a liberal studies program; one can obtain a secular degree. If a student joins the LDS church, they are expelled. Is that a religous freedom issue? I applied to a doctoral program at Fuller Theological Seminary. I wanted to study NT history. I was told I would not be admitted because I needed an ecclesiastical endorsement from somebody other than a Mormon bishop. Is that a religious freedom issue? For these examples, should I be outraged that these institutions are discriminating against non-believers? The issue of freedom is conceptually broader than the issue of legal rights. It's wholly appropriate to refer to this as a religious freedom issue. And I think one of the reason it's an issue for BYU is the the church has advocated for religious freedom broadly, but religious freedom is not available to LDS students at the church's university. In other words, BYU's policy is at odds with the church's broad support for religious freedom. 3
thesometimesaint Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 What are the established ways? Is the professor breaking the rules by declining to speak at the conference? Go to the person/people that have the authority to change the rules, and present your case. AFAIK There is no rule mandating that a professor speak at any conference. Simply decline the invitation. "Sorry I won't be able to attend your conference" is all that is due.
stemelbow Posted October 6, 2015 Author Posted October 6, 2015 So a rule, which, in your opinion, violates freedom of religion is a “silly rule?” Doesn’t that sort of trivialize “freedom of religion?” Don't see how.
HappyJackWagon Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 This topic hurts my head. I wish BYU students would just believe the way we want them to. Why can't they just keep believing the way they used to? Silly students. If they have a change of conscience or belief I think we should take them out back and beat them with a rubber hose; or for the more old fashioned among us, a hickory switch, a wooden spoon, or a belt. I'm flexible. OR maybe the church could just allow them the same religious liberty they seek from others.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 (edited) If the guy is that fuzzy-headed on the meaning of religious freedom, perhaps he was not the best choice for an invitation to come in any case. Edited October 6, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 3
Senator Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 Go to the person/people that have the authority to change the rules, and present your case. AFAIK There is no rule mandating that a professor speak at any conference. Simply decline the invitation. "Sorry I won't be able to attend your conference" is all that is due. So you just don't like that he used his decline to make a point?
JAHS Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 So if a non member student decided to convert, is he/she now eligible for membership tuition credits? They should be able to so long as they can get the ecclesiastical endorsement from their Bishop and follow the rules.
JAHS Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 There was an interesting news video about this last year: http://fox13now.com/2014/11/20/freebyu-pushes-for-policy-change-on-leaving-lds-church-while-attending-byu/#ooid=kxeW50cTpqELcgL_gTfz7P9po_TqyW90
ERayR Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 Why can't the policy be changed so that a student who wishes to leave the church can do so and still remain a student, as long as he/she agrees to abide by the same standards that current non LDS students are required to live? Because BYU is a church supported school and there is a long waiting list of members who want to attend. Why should someone who does not want to be a member have their education subsidized by an organization they have expressed a desire to not be affiliated with? 1
Senator Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 I am a bit befuddled by the ideology behind this movement. So, these folks want individual students to be granted religious freedom, but the religious institution is to be denied the same freedom. Is that correct?
thesometimesaint Posted October 6, 2015 Posted October 6, 2015 The issue of freedom is conceptually broader than the issue of legal rights. It's wholly appropriate to refer to this as a religious freedom issue. And I think one of the reason it's an issue for BYU is the the church has advocated for religious freedom broadly, but religious freedom is not available to LDS students at the church's university. In other words, BYU's policy is at odds with the church's broad support for religious freedom. Not really. How we enforce the issue of freedom in society is an issue of legal rights. In this country you are certainly free to believe anything you want, and as long as your actions don't preclude others from exercising their freedoms you are free to do whatever your religion prescribes. In this particular example BYU has a set of rules governing who, and under what condition they may attend. We are under no legal or moral obligation to provide or subsidize the education of those that will not follow those rules. IE; Nonmembers may attend on a space available basis. Follow all the rules. Plus pay the nonmember tuition rates. If a member leaves the Church they are taking a space from a otherwise qualified member. 2
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