Making A Statement About Free Byu

[stemelbow]

http://www.freebyu.org/prominent-scholar-boycotts-byu-laws-annual-religious-freedom-conference-in-protest-over-byus-religious-discrimination/

Prof Elizabeth Clark

Associate Director,

International Center for Law and Religion Studies

Brigham Young University

Dear Elizabeth:

I regret that I will be unable to participate in the Law and Religion Symposium that is being held this week at BYU. It was an honor to be invited to speak at this event, and as you know I made every effort to make room in my schedule to be there on Tuesday. My decision not to participate is an act of conscience based on BYU’s policy of expelling any Mormon student who leaves the faith or converts to another religion.

Alas I was unaware of this policy until this weekend when it was brought to my attention. I have decided that it would be hypocritical of me to participate in a conference in which the issue of religious liberty is paramount when the institution sponsoring it fundamentally violates this principle in its policies towards Mormon students. As I understand it, non-Mormons are allowed to enroll in BYU, and they are welcome to convert to the Mormon faith if they wish, but if Mormon students change their religious affiliation they lose their scholarship, their campus housing and jobs, and are expelled from school even if they are months away from graduation.

In making this decision I mean no disrespect to you, the Center with which you are affiliated, or the other participants in this week’s conference. I know that many faculty members at BYU are opposed to this policy and are quietly working to change it. I applaud them, and hope that my decision will be taken as a sign of support for those within BYU who are seeking change. I appreciation your dilemma and admire your persistence.

Again, thanks for the honor of the invitation. I hope that I will be invited back to BYU and will be able to accept some time in the future when this policy restricting religious freedom is lifted.

Sincerely,

Mark Juergensmeyer

Professor of Sociology and Global Studies

Founding Director and Fellow

Orfalea Center for Global and International Studies

Oh BYU, stop putting constraints on some kids as it relates to their choice of religion, please.

Edited October 6, 2015 by stemelbow

[bluebell]

I'm wondering why he says that he made every effort to clear his schedule so he could attend, and then spends the rest of the letter saying that his decision not to attend had absolutely nothing to do with a scheduling conflict.

 

But to the topic, might BYU's policy be due to the fact that so many people want to get into the school (it is hardest school to get into in Utah) and that members are given some advantage in that department?

[Bob Crockett]

Generally speaking the doctrine of religious freedom applies to government or societal coercion of how a religion operates.

It it is bassackwards to argue that the doctrine should compel a religious school to admit someone as a student.

The opening post is absurd. You can disagree with the way the Mormon faith operates but to invoke religious freedom to do so is the argument of a sixth grader.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[JulieM]

I'm wondering why he says that he made every effort to clear his schedule so he could attend, and then spends the rest of the letter saying that his decision not to attend had absolutely nothing to do with a scheduling conflict.

I read it that he was planning to be there but then learned about these other details this last weekend and now won't be attending. But that was a bit confusing.

Edited October 6, 2015 by JulieM

[Five Solas]

"I know that many faculty members at BYU are opposed to this policy and are quietly working to change it."

 

Do you think Mark is blowing smoke here or is there really significant dissent under the surface among the BYU faculty?  This doesn't seem like a trivial issue, either way. 

 

--Erik

[stemelbow]

I'm wondering why he says that he made every effort to clear his schedule so he could attend, and then spends the rest of the letter saying that his decision not to attend had absolutely nothing to do with a scheduling conflict.

He was eager and wanting to go, until he heard of BYU's policy to send no longer LDS packing.

 

But to the topic, might BYU's policy be due to the fact that so many people want to get into the school (it is hardest school to get into in Utah) and that members are given some advantage in that department?

Probably not. But even if, it doesn't matter. It's pretty silly to require college students to remain a Mormon, while such students are trying to learn grow and figure themselves out.

[rockpond]

Generally speaking the doctrine of religious freedom applies to government or societal coercion of how a religion operates.

It it is bassackwards to argue that the doctrine should compel a religious school to admit someone as a student.

The opening post is absurd. You can disagree with the way the Mormon faith operates but to invoke religious freedom to do so is the argument of a sixth grader.

 

BYU has every right to make a rule that Mormon students cannot change their religious affiliation.  What the professor is saying is that such a rule is not compatible with the ideals of religious freedom.

[stemelbow]

Generally speaking the doctrine of religious freedom applies to government or societal coercion of how a religion operates.

It it is bassackwards to argue that the doctrine should compel a religious school to admit someone as a student.

The opening post is absurd. You can disagree with the way the Mormon faith operates but to invoke religious freedom to do so is the argument of a sixth grader.

It's not really about admitting student. It's about allowing students to finish when that student had chosen not to be LDS anymore. When I invoked religious freedom, in this context, in the OP and when the professor invoked it, it was not about law. Only the mind of a sixth grader would read it that way. It was far more about allowing students to learn and grow and not feel constrained in doing so.

[Gray]

Generally speaking the doctrine of religious freedom applies to government or societal coercion of how a religion operates.

It it is bassackwards to argue that the doctrine should compel a religious school to admit someone as a student.

The opening post is absurd. You can disagree with the way the Mormon faith operates but to invoke religious freedom to do so is the argument of a sixth grader.

 

I don't believe Juergensmeyer said anything about BYU being in violation of federal or state law regarding religious freedom. It's a reasonable concern to raise - why does BYU not allow its LDS students religious freedom? The idea of freedom is not just limited to legal issues. Indeed, the church has raised religious freedom concerns related to the boycotting of institutions that take a stand based on the religious views of the management. I'm not saying boycotts are a religious freedom issue, but religious freedom can be hindered by non-government entities. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by Gray

[rockpond]

http://www.freebyu.org/prominent-scholar-boycotts-byu-laws-annual-religious-freedom-conference-in-protest-over-byus-religious-discrimination/

Oh BYU, stop fighting freedom of religion, please.

 

Thanks for posting.  This is a great win for the Free BYU cause.

[ERayR]

http://www.freebyu.org/prominent-scholar-boycotts-byu-laws-annual-religious-freedom-conference-in-protest-over-byus-religious-discrimination/

Oh BYU, stop fighting freedom of religion, please.

 

You obviously do not understand what freedom of religion is. 

[ERayR]

BYU has every right to make a rule that Mormon students cannot change their religious affiliation.  What the professor is saying is that such a rule is not compatible with the ideals of religious freedom.

 

What the good professor doesn't seem to understand is the law of consequences.

[Gray]

You obviously do not understand what freedom of religion is. 

 

Freedom: the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint

 

LDS students at BYU do not have religious freedom at the school so long as this policy stays in place. 

[CA Steve]

Why can't the policy be changed so that a student who wishes to leave the church can do so and still remain a student, as long as he/she agrees to abide by the same standards that current non LDS students are required to live?

[rockpond]

What the good professor doesn't seem to understand is the law of consequences.

 

I think he seems quite clear on the law of consequences:

 

He is saying that BYU does not need to impose such consequences.  And that imposing those consequences BYU is working against the cause of religious freedom (even if they have a legal right to do so).

 

And obviously a consequence of BYU's policy is this professor deciding not to attend or speak at the forum.

[rockpond]

Why can't the policy be changed so that a student who wishes to leave the church can do so and still remain a student, as long as he/she agrees to abide by the same standards that current non LDS students are required to live?

 

That's the question Free BYU is asking.

[stemelbow]

You obviously do not understand what freedom of religion is.

no need to pout, just explain to me then. We can discuss and perhaps gain from each other, no?

[Tacenda]

Freedom: the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint

LDS students at BYU do not have religious freedom at the school so long as this policy stays in place.

LIKE! With the added, the students should abide in the rules for non LDS students.

And a question...do Catholic students at Notre Dame have the same policy if they quit belief? I noticed they, like BYU, allow non Catholic students to attend and may even have them take some religion courses and keep certain standards, but couldn't find anything about students that quit the Catholic church.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Tacenda

[thesometimesaint]

He was eager and wanting to go, until he heard of BYU's policy to send no longer LDS packing.

 

Probably not. But even if, it doesn't matter. It's pretty silly to require college students to remain a Mormon, while such students are trying to learn grow and figure themselves out.

 

Utter nonsense. When you commit to an institution be they public, or private, you agree to follow their rules. Have the basic honesty to stand by your commitments or leave.

[stemelbow]

Utter nonsense. When you commit to an institution be they public, or private, you agree to follow their rules. Have the basic honesty to stand by your commitments or leave.

Your response sounds good, until you apply it to college students and religion. One great American experience with college is for students to grow, and learn, explore their thoughts and feelings. to tell students you can only do that a little, because if such efforts cause you decide to leave Mormonism, we'll send you packing, is opposing a students freedom to choose religion. Students heading off to college have all sorts of ideas and expectations, assumptions, and hopes. It's silly to expect each student remain LDS while he/she is off learning and growing.

BTW it's not against the rules to not be LDS and a student at BYU. The commitment you are referring to, I think, is having students say they are not going to lose their faith while at school. that expectation is silly.

Edited October 6, 2015 by stemelbow

[JAHS]

Why can't the policy be changed so that a student who wishes to leave the church can do so and still remain a student, as long as he/she agrees to abide by the same standards that current non LDS students are required to live?

 

But if they are no longer a member, if they stay would they then have to start paying the higher tuition fees that non LDS students pay?

[Senator]

Utter nonsense. When you commit to an institution be they public, or private, you agree to follow their rules. Have the basic honesty to stand by your commitments or leave.

 

I agree.

 

But is it wrong to lobby to have the rules changed?

[stemelbow]

But if they are no longer a member, if they stay would they then have to start paying the higher tuition fees that non LDS students pay?

Maybe. And if they are scholarshipped, they should continue to maintain a scholarship. Of course the school should see students who are intent to finish as assets. But in this case, they don't. That is pretty sad.

[Kenngo1969]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: there's room for discussion about how BYU should treat a student who experiences a loss of faith and comes clean about it to university officials and/or to their ecclesiastical leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, that same room for discussion vanishes if someone loses his or her faith and lies about it to maintain a continuing ecclesiastical endorsement so as to continue receiving the reduced tuition rate available to members of the Church of Jesus Christ, that is a totally different animal.  I can't imagine how someone who does that could feel comfortable maintaining his enrollment at BYU.  In fact, I can scarcely imagine how someone who loses his faith but is open about it could feel comfortable at BYU. Why not transfer?  

 

"But, but, I'll lose credits!"  Yep; that kind of thing happens in the real world sometimes.  I transferred.  I lost credits.  I jumped from the fire back into the frying pan when I took some lower division credits that were required for my major.  Hell, I even did the same thing seventeen years later when, trying to compensate for my lack of licensure in my would-be chosen profession and looking to obtain some worthwhile credential to demonstrate my acumen in the field, I called the National Association of Legal Assistants and said, "Hi.  I have a law degree.  What do I have to do to take your Certified Paralegal exam?" and the person with whom I spoke said, "Oh, no problem.  Just take 15 Paralegal Studies credits."  I wanted to ask, "Did you miss the part where I said I have a law degree?"  But I didn't.  I swallowed my pride and, in the words of Elder Steven E. Snow when describing the reaction of his ancestor when that ancestor was called to go settle Southern Utah, I "looked, and spat, and said, 'Alright.'"

 

P.S.: And just to beat Scott Lloyd to the punch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gek3maVEoLY

Edited October 6, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Tacenda]

But if they are no longer a member, if they stay would they then have to start paying the higher tuition fees that non LDS students pay?

I think they should pay higher tuition, since it comes from tithing etc. Plus if they discontinued attending or serving in the church. If they become vocal against the church they should probably leave. Undecided if they should have their credits swiped also on that one, undecided but probably shouldn't.