Making A Statement About Free Byu

[iWriteStuff]

BYU is a church school. To say what a church must do with its school, in the name of religious freedom, is rather ironic.

 

Also, members leave the Church is one of two ways. 1. Improper conduct (which goes against BYU's honor code) 2. Becoming disenfranchised with the Church. Not merely inactive but actively believing it's not true. These people, as Joseph Smith said, can't leave the Church alone. They are bound to be a negative influence on fellow students. Either way their presence is a distraction at best.

 

Amen and amen. I saw this many times while attending there. Same with my three siblings, who also attended. Not infrequently, #1 led to #2 as well.

 

Uhhhh....

[Buckeye]

Oddly enough, I agree with Brother Crockett on this. As a religiously sponsored institution, BYU is free to set its own standards for admission and expulsion as it sees fit. Personally, I think the policy is too heavy handed and puts people in a difficult situation, but I don't dispute that it's BYU's right to set its own policy.

 

Oddly enough, I also agree that BYU has the right to discriminate as it does. I just disagree that the discrimination is the right thing to do. I don't think BYU is breaking any laws. But it is engaging in religious discrimination. A Catholic is allowed to convert to Hinduism without consequence. A Baptist can convert to Islam and nothing happens. But if a Mormon converts to Methodism she is expelled. That is religious discrimination, pure and simple.

 

Here's another example: Suppose the local mosque is burned by arsonists. The local LDS bishop invites that congregation to use his building for worship services on Fridays until the mosque is rebuilt. The next week the local chapel for Seventh-Day Adventists burns. The bishop could offer the same invitation (for Saturday worship), but declines because he disapproves of Adventists. That would be religious discrimination. It may be allowed under property law (the church can decide who enters its building), but it is nonetheless discrimination based on religion.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Buckeye

[Scott Lloyd]

No one is saying that the newly deconverted student should be treated any differently than a non member is at BYU.

And I have a hard time believing that in student body of over 29,000 students that there are enough cases of deconversion that allowing them to stay would be taking up space for someone else.

How many cases of this happen each year? Anyone know?

Even one instance in which a faithful member was denied admission because an enrollment slot was occupied by someone who had apostatized would be too many.

[Gray]

BYU is a religious institution, just like Notre Dame, Loyola, SMU, .  It is a religious corporation and its board of trustees are church officials, including the president of the church -- like the other institutions I have named. 

 

But, I do think you know that.  The question offered in the opening post is not about Cougar football, but about the right of any religious school to define the terms of matriculation.  You and your pals, using "religious freedom" as your banner, say that a religious institution ought to do things your way, not their way.

 

I personally think that BYU ought to let apostates finish the term of their studies, but I'm not in charge of the religion.

 

Of course BYU has the legal right to do what it's doing. That's not really the topic of the thread, though is it? They may have the legal right to infringe upon the religious freedom of their LDS students, but really we're talking about what would they should do, especially since several LDS leaders have gone on record in advocating a more expansive view of religious freedom (a view that supersedes matters of law).

 

It would seem more consistent with the ideals of the church to extend the religious freedom already given to "never-mo" students to LDS students as well. But then again, the rules of the school often seem to be a little out of step the church. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by Gray

[Gray]

 They are bound to be a negative influence on fellow students. Either way their presence is a distraction at best.

 

So many people don't seem to have much faith in BYU students, as if living in close proximity to a former believer will contaminate them. Ironically that attitude is probably what drives non-believers to become hostile to the church. Imagine if non-believers were welcomed to stay at BYU, retained all their friendships, weren't looked down upon, and were given a bridge back to the church? I think many would eventually return. But so often the reaction is to immediately shut them out and make it almost impossible for them to ever desire to return to church. 

[iWriteStuff]

So many people don't seem to have much faith in BYU students, as if living in close proximity to a former believer will contaminate them. Ironically that attitude is probably what drives non-believers to become hostile to the church. Imagine if non-believers were welcomed to stay at BYU, retained all their friendships, weren't looked down upon, and were given a bridge back to the church? I think many would eventually return. But so often the reaction is to immediately shut them out and make it almost impossible for them to ever desire to return to church. 

 

To which I would respond that it depends a lot upon the behavior of the non-believer (surely there has to be a better noun for it than that). I've stayed friends with disaffected members who left the church but were still decent and sociable. My friendship with them was never based purely on membership status. But there are others I've known who have left the church and turned bitter and angry towards other members without an ounce of provocation. Extending the hand of fellowship involves receiving a lot of bite marks sometimes.

[Gray]

Even one instance in which a faithful member was denied admission because an enrollment slot was occupied by someone who had apostatized would be too many.

 

They would need to lose their faith their first year for that to be an issue, right? 

 

But in terms of the mission of the church, those who are well don't need a doctor. Presumably the idea is that going to BYU helps promote faith, right? 

[Gray]

To which I would respond that it depends a lot upon the behavior of the non-believer (surely there has to be a better noun for it than that). I've stayed friends with disaffected members who left the church but were still decent and sociable. My friendship with them was never based purely on membership status. But there are others I've known who have left the church and turned bitter and angry towards other members without an ounce of provocation. Extending the hand of fellowship involves receiving a lot of bite marks sometimes.

 

Yes, unfortunately there can be bad behavior from both sides at times. Unavoidable, but shutting people out is likely to encourage hostility toward the church, whereas welcoming them is likely to quell bad feelings and leave the road open for them to return. 

[Buckeye]

They would need to lose their faith their first year for that to be an issue, right? 

 

But in terms of the mission of the church, those who are well don't need a doctor. Presumably the idea is that going to BYU helps promote faith, right? 

 

I think Scott would argue that upper-level students still occupy a "slot" that a transfer student could take.

 

Your second point gets at a central point. In a perfect world where space was unlimited, perhaps there wouldn't be so much dispute over this policy. Some of us look at the issue from the view of those who are expelled but want to (respectfully) stay. Others look from the view of those who don't get the chance to attend. Both are valid. I think Scott mentioned once that his son was in a waiting pool for the Y. Here's hoping that he made it. 

Edited October 6, 2015 by Buckeye

[CA Steve]

Even one instance in which a faithful member was denied admission because an enrollment slot was occupied by someone who had apostatized would be too many.

If I apply to BYU for the first time, as a non-member who was once a member, is it the policy of BYU to deny admission based on the fact I was once a member?

If not then your objection amounts to merely your own projections on how people who leave the church should be treated differently than other non-members.

Edited October 6, 2015 by CA Steve

[Buckeye]

If I apply to BYU for the first time, as a non-member who was once a member, is it the policy of BYU to deny admission based on the fact I was once a member?

If not then your objection amounts to merely your own projections on how people who leave the church should be treated differently than other non-members.

 

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the policy applies to applicants as well as current students. It would be quite odd if it did not.

 

There may be an exception if the applicant is seen has not having actively left the church - for example if he left at age 9 with his family who returned to the Catholic church (a la Marco Rubio). I know from personal experience that local leaders look differently on the "apostasy" of a youth who leaves the church alongside his family, than they do for adults who make the choice on their own. Yes, agency "begins" at age 8, but agency (and therefore responsibility) also tends to grow over time.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Buckeye

[CA Steve]

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the policy applies to applicants as well as current students. It would be quite odd if it did not.

 

There may be an exception if the applicant is seen has not having actively left the church - for example if he left at age 9 with his family who returned to the Catholic church (a la Marco Rubio). I know from personal experience that local leaders look differently on the "apostasy" of a youth who leaves the church alongside his family, than they do for adults who make the choice on their own. Yes, agency "begins" at age 8, but agency (and therefore responsibility) also tends to grow over time.

That, at least would be consistent, but then the question is, are non member applicants screened as to their views of Mormonism also? IOW, if the concern about BYU allowing ex-members to attend hinges on their attitudes toward the church and how that might affect student members, is that same concern also covered when admitting non-members? If so how and why couldn't that same process be used to screen ex-members? Or is the approach that once you are a filthy apostate you are not worth saving?

[iWriteStuff]

That, at least would be consistent, but then the question is, are non member applicants screened as to their views of Mormonism also? IOW, if the concern about BYU allowing ex-members to attend hinges on their attitudes toward the church and how that might affect student members, is that same concern also covered when admitting non-members? If so how and why couldn't that same process be used to screen ex-members? Or is the approach that once you are a filthy apostate you are not worth saving?

 

I don't believe there is a screening process for non-members. Co-worker of mine got his Masters at BYU after moving here from India. He never knew a thing about Mormonism, just heard that BYU was a great school to learn Accounting. Ironically came to work with a bunch of Mormons over here in Denver afterwards...

[Gilbert]

That, at least would be consistent, but then the question is, are non member applicants screened as to their views of Mormonism also? IOW, if the concern about BYU allowing ex-members to attend hinges on their attitudes toward the church and how that might affect student members, is that same concern also covered when admitting non-members? If so how and why couldn't that same process be used to screen ex-members? Or is the approach that once you are a filthy apostate you are not worth saving?

From BYU's admissions website:

 

The first consideration in the review process is the ecclesiastical endorsement. Each applicant must be endorsed by his or her ecclesiastical leaders as one who is worthy to attend BYU and is living in harmony with the Honor Code and the Dress and Grooming Standards (BeSmart.com/honorcode). Non-LDS applicants will only be required to meet with one of the following: an LDS bishop, branch president, or mission president (to locate these ecclesiastical leaders, enter your address into the meetinghouse locator tool).

[Bob Crockett]

Criticizing the university is not the same thing as criticizing the religion. Are you arguing that only the institutional church deserves religious freedom as opposed to the individuals within a church? This is the disconnect I feel with what you're suggesting.

 

Individuals deserve the same rights of religious freedom as an institution.

 

 

I guess I'd like you to explain what "deserve" means.  If it isn't a civil right, then it seems you don't have any basis for your statement.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Bob Crockett

[KevinG]

I committed to your institution of higher learning and agreed to your code prohibiting cheating and plagiarism.  However my beliefs have expanded to include the sharing of all intellectual property with no fees, so I cannot in good conscience withhold my test answers from my classmates.  I do expect this will not affect my good standing with the university due to my new beliefs.

 

Thank you,

[Buckeye]

 

I committed to your institution of higher learning and agreed to your code prohibiting cheating and plagiarism.  However my beliefs have expanded to include the sharing of all intellectual property with no fees, so I cannot in good conscience withhold my test answers from my classmates.  I do expect this will not affect my good standing with the university due to my new beliefs.

 

Thank you,

 

Um, try again. Any student at BYU who cheats will be subject to discipline. That rule applies to all regardless of their religion. But when it comes to being baptized in the Catholic church, BYU allows all students to take that action except for Mormons. That is religious discrimination.

[rockpond]

Even one instance in which a faithful member was denied admission because an enrollment slot was occupied by someone who had apostatized would be too many.

 

Under that logic, we shouldn't be allowing non-members to attend BYU either.

[KevinG]

 

 

 

Um, try again. Any student at BYU who cheats will be subject to discipline. 

 

Of course.  So why not expel a student who joins the college on the condition they are a faithful believing Latter-day Saint but changes that condition?

[Buckeye]

Of course.  So why not expel a student who joins the college on the condition they are a faithful believing Latter-day Saint but changes that condition?

 

Because being a faithful believing latter-day saint is not a requirement for admission. 

 

[KevinG]

Because being a faithful believing latter-day saint is not a requirement for admission. 

 

 

I have a problem with athletes who don't fit admission standards too. So we're in agreement on that.

 

You don't have to be a faithful Latter-day Saint for admission, yet you do have to agree to a rather stringent set of rules, and have an ecclesiastical endorsement that is the equivalent of the Bishop's recommend for Mormons.

[Buckeye]

 

I have a problem with athletes who don't fit admission standards too. So we're in agreement on that.

 

You don't have to be a faithful Latter-day Saint for admission, yet you do have to agree to a rather stringent set of rules, and have an ecclesiastical endorsement that is the equivalent of the Bishop's recommend for Mormons.

 

A member who converts to Methodism could obtain an ecclesiastical endorsement as easily as a student who has always been Methodist. BYU's admission requirements include behaviors and practices. They do not include an affirmation of LDS truth claims. And no, a bishop's recommendation of a candidate for BYU is not the same as a temple recommend (if that's what you're proposing). Many bishops issue recommends for non-members.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Buckeye

[Kenngo1969]

And just think if BYU just changes it's silly rule and expectations of students, none of this would be a problem at all. Your argument seems to support the notion that BYU should do away with this policy more than anything. So have at it. I personally dn't condemn individuals for lying each and every time. We all lie. I just wish them the best and move on. Not sure why you're so upset about it. Haven't you ever lied?

Upset?  Me?   Nah!  Yes, I have tried to get into BYU.  No, I was not admitted.  (Since I question the wisdom of my pursuit of that particular degree anyway, I'm not sure how I should feel about that particular state of affairs.  If I had gone anywhere but where I did, I probably would have been "disinvited" from the program long before finishing my degree.  Is that a good thing? )  No, I have no way of knowing whether "my seat" was taken by someone who hid a loss (or lack) of faith in order to maintain his status.  (There are very good reasons why I applied to nine schools instead of just one, and there are probably very good reasons why all but three of them, including BYU, rejected me.)  But, while I would probably simply shrug it off and say, "Meh!  Those are the breaks!" even if any of these things could be proven, I wouldn't blame someone else for becoming upset in that situation. Yes, membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for never-Mormons should not be a sin qua non for admission, but even so, the fact remains that a huge part of BYU's mission is to expend limited resources in the education of faithful Latter-day Saints.

 

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that I said that there's room for debate about how BYU should treat someone who confesses a loss or lack of faith to officials in the Church of Jesus Christ, or to BYU officials, and seeks guidance about how to proceed.  I am not a lawyer, and anyone who is a lawyer will rightly tell you that this is a stretch, but, arguably, receiving the reduced tuition rate offered to faithful Latter-day Saints under false pretenses actually is fraud.  BYU should encourage students to be honest about the state of their faith, and should provide as much assistance as possible to disaffected students in facilitating their transfer from the university.

 

I don't think that's an unreasonable position.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Russell C McGregor]

"I know that many faculty members at BYU are opposed to this policy and are quietly working to change it."

 

Do you think Mark is blowing smoke here or is there really significant dissent under the surface among the BYU faculty?  This doesn't seem like a trivial issue, either way. 

 

--Erik

I think BYU should use my tithing to subsidise the tuition of apostate students.

Just as long as they don't embrace outright idolatry.

Including the kinds of idolatry associated with Latin words like "Sola."

[longview]

By that same standard, we could jail all Muslims for their beliefs and say they have religious freedom, but have to accept the consequences of their actions, just like everyone else.

Disjointed reasoning. Your point has nothing to do with this debate.