ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 A student's endorsement may be withdrawn at any time if the ecclesiastical leader determines that the student is no longer eligible for the endorsement. If an endorsement is withdrawn, no confessional information is exchanged without authorization from the student. Students without a current endorsement are not in good Honor Code standing and must discontinue enrollment. Students who are not in good Honor Code standing are not eligible for graduation, even if they have otherwise completed all necessary coursework. Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the withdrawal of the student's ecclesiastical endorsement and the loss of good Honor Code standing. Disaffiliation is defined for purposes of this policy as removal of an individual's name from the official records of the Church. I don't see any ambiguity in that.
sethpayne Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I am optimistic that there are enough wise non-LDS scholars left in the world that BYU is not going to wither and die just for standing up for its values. What "value" is BYU standing up for here? 1
sethpayne Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Heavens! What's all the whooey about? Just don't request to have your name removed from the church. This has nothing to do with loss off faith or disbelief. So you are in favor of "faking it until you make it?" Pretend to believe until graduation day and then you are off the hook? I can't imagine this is a good long-term strategy for the university.
Sleeper Cell Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I guess the lesson in this...stay away from school that controls thought or actions, in case you happen to change your mind. Too much time and monies invested to have it taken from you. But there are cases of individuals that the only way their parents will help with college is if they attend BYU, so they're left with not much choice. It's this....an Eagle or no driver's license. A mission or? A BYU education or? CHOICE! Actually, the choice is a BYU education paid for by your parents or grow up and act like an adult and start paying your own way. If the student in question feels that is “not much of a choice,” that says more about the student than about the church or his parents. 3
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 So you don't believe that policy impacts behavior? Of course, policy triggers behavior. However it is integrity or lack thereof that determines the action taken. 1
Senator Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 So you are in favor of "faking it until you make it?" Pretend to believe until graduation day and then you are off the hook? I can't imagine this is a good long-term strategy for the university.According to the contract there is no need to fake it. As far as I know no one is asked or forced to "ask for their names to be removed" just because they have a loss of faith.
Gray Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 It is relevant because whether that part of the code is ethical or not it was part of the agreement that was made and signed. The problem is some are not honest enough to live by their promises. That seems like a character flaw to me. The question is whether that item should be a part of the honor code in the first place. The answer, if you value academic and religious freedom, is no, it should not. But do you think that Catholic converts to Mormonism are dishonest, or have a character flaw? Catholics who are confirmed make a promise to remain Catholic, after all. Should we not even accept Catholic converts?
Gray Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Out of curiosity, does anyone think the church or their university is going to change their policy due to the conscientious objection of said law professor? I'm gonna go with "No". And I think that's the right call. I think eventually it will change, but not just because of this one incident. Either that or BYU will become a Mormon-only school, as someone else suggested.
Gray Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) It is not the school policy that rewards dishonesty. By your reasoning it is laws against robbery that cause people to rob. Dishonest students are rewarded by being able to finish their education. Honest students are rewarded by being kicked out of school. And remember, we're not talking about being open about having committed some crime or acting immorally. We're talking about being honest about the state of one's mind. Edited October 7, 2015 by Gray 1
sethpayne Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 According to the contract there is no need to fake it. As far as I know no one is asked or forced to "ask for their names to be removed" just because they have a loss of faith. Sure. But they must attend meetings and appear to be "good" LDS.
Senator Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Sure. But they must attend meetings and appear to be "good" LDS. Is that in the contract?
sethpayne Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Is that in the contract? Well, to retain their ecclesiastical endorsement they have to attend meetings regularly. ETA: In the several BYU wards I attended I saw this enforced differently by different bishops. Some would sign the endorsement even if they only saw you once in a while and others wanted to see more involvement. A buddy of mine had his held up temporarily because he wasn't fulfilling his calling. So it varies from ward to ward, I think. Edited October 7, 2015 by sethpayne
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Is that in the contract? Yep, your church leader can pull your ecclesiastical endorsement for a number of reasons. I've known people who got theirs pulled for not attending the ward they were assigned to (in both cases they were attending their girlfriend's ward). The relative I mentioned attended church, did his home teaching, and basically kept his head down (except for his foray into the coffee shop). Once he graduated, he was done with the church (and no, I had nothing to with his exit from the church, in case anyone wonders).
Scott Lloyd Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) What "value" is BYU standing up for here?Remaining true to gospel covenants once one has accepted them. Loyalty to Jesus Christ and His Church. Loyalty to family. Loyalty to untold numbers of Church members who sacrifice to subsidize the education of young people they hope will go out and strengthen the Church and Kingdom of God. Edited October 7, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Senator Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Well, to retain their ecclesiastical endorsement they have to attend meetings regularly. ETA: In the several BYU wards I attended I saw this enforced differently by different bishops. Some would sign the endorsement even if they only saw you once in a while and others wanted to see more involvement. A buddy of mine had his held up temporarily because he wasn't fulfilling his calling. So it varies from ward to ward, I think. So, there's more to the contract (ambiguity) than what jkw had shown. Still, one could fulfill this requirement and not be dishonest or be pretending.
Senator Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Yep, your church leader can pull your ecclesiastical endorsement for a number of reasons. I've known people who got theirs pulled for not attending the ward they were assigned to (in both cases they were attending their girlfriend's ward). The relative I mentioned attended church, did his home teaching, and basically kept his head down (except for his foray into the coffee shop). Once he graduated, he was done with the church (and no, I had nothing to with his exit from the church, in case anyone wonders). I would say your relative fulfilled his contractual obligations, and should not be held in derision.
sethpayne Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 So, there's more to the contract (ambiguity) than what jkw had shown. Still, one could fulfill this requirement and not be dishonest or be pretending. Well, I think that is true. But you would have to be careful about sharing your views with anyone. So you could go to Church -- and even enjoy it! -- but I think if anyone suspected you were a closet apostate they could report you to the Bishop and, depending on his personality, hey may or may not choose to renew the endorsement. So it is still a tough situation. And one where I would argue some amount of "pretending" or putting on appearances is necessary.
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I would say your relative fulfilled his contractual obligations, and should not be held in derision. He did break his mother's heart, though.
Senator Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Well, I think that is true. But you would have to be careful about sharing your views with anyone. So you could go to Church -- and even enjoy it! -- but I think if anyone suspected you were a closet apostate they could report you to the Bishop and, depending on his personality, hey may or may not choose to renew the endorsement. So it is still a tough situation. And one where I would argue some amount of "pretending" or putting on appearances is necessary. Given what you say about about the endorsement being held by the arbitrary decision of a bishop, you may be right.
Senator Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 He did break his mother's heart, though. No doubt
Sleeper Cell Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Why run a university then - or as MJ, put it: Before excluding BYU from being considered a university because it is allegedly “not part of the academic community that is devoted to the free inquiry and free expression of belief,” wouldn’t it be reasonable to ask MJ to demonstrate that all the accredited secular universities are devoted to the free inquiry and free expression of belief?” There are competing values here. BYU seems to want the university experience to be not only faith promoting but also to some extent isolating and insular. I think faith promoting experiences can be had at a university, but the insularity doesn't work with the mission of an accredited university. I never felt more isolated and insular than when I was a student at the University of California. Regarding your hypothetical regarding students advocating their own religious views, I would say it should be permitted within certain boundaries. If someone wishes to engage you in conversation about it, you should feel free to share your beliefs if someone is willing to listen. But marching around campus with anti-Mormon signs might be taking it too far. Yet wouldn’t forbidding students from marching around with anti-Mormon signs be inconsistent with MJ’s definition of university, an essential part of which includes “being devoted to the … free expression of beliefs?” 2
sethpayne Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Given what you say about about the endorsement being held by the arbitrary decision of a bishop, you may be right. Well, I wouldn't say arbitrary. That's too strong a word. There is certainly a standard to be met but I have seen some Bishops -- just like in every ward of the Church -- interpret guidelines and policy to match their own leanings. ETA -- this can go both ways, I should say. I had a friend at BYU who was struggling with some things that would have made an endorsement a bit dicey. But when he went to his Bishop they had a serious conversation about the struggles, discussed some solutions, and the Bishop sent him off with both an endorsement and the admonition to "go and sin no more." Edited October 7, 2015 by sethpayne 2
Calm Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Yet, here it appears that in the Good Ship's university on deck 9, if one is honest enough to express his doubts or dis beliefs, (even if he desires to stay aboard?) he will be made to walk the plank.I hear a lot about students getting expelled for having doubts. Do you have any actual examples? The very few I know of who got expelled labeled themselves as exmormons,they had taken themselves off the ship first. Edited October 7, 2015 by Calm 1
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Well, I wouldn't say arbitrary. That's too strong a word. There is certainly a standard to be met but I have seen some Bishops -- just like in every ward of the Church -- interpret guidelines and policy to match their own leanings. ETA -- this can go both ways, I should say. I had a friend at BYU who was struggling with some things that would have made an endorsement a bit dicey. But when he went to his Bishop they had a serious conversation about the struggles, discussed some solutions, and the Bishop sent him off with both an endorsement and the admonition to "go and sin no more." I've seen this as well. My younger brother, for example, had a disciplinary council convened, but his bishop gave him six months and a long list of things to do, after which he would either destroy the record of the council or send it to Salt Lake for my brother to be disfellowshipped. This would have meant he would be kicked out of school, and with it, lose his scholarship. My brother did all the things he was asked to do, but he died in a car accident a few days before his 6-month appointment with his bishop, so the bishop destroyed the record. My brother's ecclesiastical endorsement was never withdrawn. When I was a sophomore, there was a young woman in my ward who had gotten into some trouble in high school, which she had confessed to the bishop of her home ward. She had no issues her freshman year, but her sophomore year, she went out with a guy, got drunk, and ended up having sex. She was excommunicated and expelled from school. So, yes, there seems to be a lot of leeway for campus bishops. 1
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I hear a lot about students getting expelled for having doubts. Do you have any actual examples? The very few I know of who got expelled labeled themselves as exmormons,they had taken themselves off the ship first. I know 4 or 5 people who told their roommates they either were doubting or didn't believe, and their roommates turned them into the standards office. I don't think any of them were expelled, but they toed the line after that.
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