Senator Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I hear a lot about students getting expelled for having doubts. Do you have any actual examples? The very few I know of who got expelled labeled themselves as exmormons,they had taken themselves off the ship first.No That question was part of my further queries.
ERMD Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 If the policy is as represented, I don't think I agree with it.
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 If the policy is as represented, I don't think I agree with it. Remember you are hearing it from the side of those dissatisfied with it. How many thousands go through with no problem. The problem appear when one fails to keep their promises.
iWriteStuff Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Remember you are hearing it from the side of those dissatisfied with it. How many thousands go through with no problem. The problem appear when one fails to keep their promises. True enough. If I had to guess, probably a VERY small subset of the population.
mfbukowski Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 So, yes, there seems to be a lot of leeway for campus bishops.For all bishops. The point? 1
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 For all bishops.The point?The point was, if I read Seth correctly, that it's not arbitrary but there is leeway. I was agreeing.
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Remember you are hearing it from the side of those dissatisfied with it. How many thousands go through with no problem. The problem appear when one fails to keep their promises.One can go through with no problem and still disagree with the policy.
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 For all bishops. The point? Can't you see it is the Bishop's fault they didn't keep their commitments. 1
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 One can go through with no problem and still disagree with the policy. If there are no problems it is much less likely.
mfbukowski Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I hear a lot about students getting expelled for having doubts. Do you have any actual examples? The very few I know of who got expelled labeled themselves as exmormons,they had taken themselves off the ship first.Joining another church is apostasy. Apostasy is self-excommuncation in every church I know of, for precisely the reason you have shown. As I recall, apostasy means automatic excommunication in a church disciplinary council. If the code calls for being expelled for being excommunicated I don't see any way out of it unless excommunicated members can stay in the university. So now we have ex-mormon groups spreading the anti-Mormon gospel to impressionable freshmen. Is there another way out of that possibility? I am not seeing it. There seems to be no way out of the status quo without very undesirable consequences.
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 If there are no problems it is much less likely.I don't think I am alone. The only problems I had with the honor code involved a bishop who forgot to send in my ecclesiastical endorsement. I did get turned away from the testing center once for having a five o'clock shadow.
mfbukowski Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Can't you see it is the Bishop's fault they didn't keep their commitments. Well one is clearly free to change religions, but not necessarily free to remain in a church school when one disagrees with the doctrine of the church. Do we really want debates with ex-Mormons at BYU? It is clear to me that the role of BYU is to train kids in the orthodox gospel. That is the function of the school- it is not about a free exchange of all possible ideas as one would expect of a state university. That is why it exists. It would be like a bible college supporting on campus atheists. That is just silly. 3
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I don't think I am alone. The only problems I had with the honor code involved a bishop who forgot to send in my ecclesiastical endorsement. I did get turned away from the testing center once for having a five o'clock shadow. Yes it is sometimes trying to ones soul to deal with bureaucracies. I get high blood pressure every time I have to deal with governments. Remind me sometime to tell you what I had to go through to build a privacy fence around my back yard. I beat them though.
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Can't you see it is the Bishop's fault they didn't keep their commitments.Where are you getting that? We were talking about what might happen if a student confessed unbelief. In my experience, a lot depends on the bishop.
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Well one is clearly free to change religions, but not necessarily free to remain in a church school when one disagrees with the doctrine of the church. Do we really want debates with ex-Mormons at BYU? It is clear to me that the role of BYU is to train kids in the orthodox gospel. That is the function of the school- it is not about a free exchange of all possible ideas as one would expect of a state university. That is why it exists. It would be like a bible college supporting on campus atheists. That is just silly. It certainly seems so to me but then what do I know?
mfbukowski Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 http://www.freebyu.org/prominent-scholar-boycotts-byu-laws-annual-religious-freedom-conference-in-protest-over-byus-religious-discrimination/Oh BYU, stop putting constraints on some kids as it relates to their choice of religion, please.Why?BYU exists to put those constraints on students Didn't you know that? Do you think it is supposed to be UC Berkeley or something? Do you realize there is still controversy right here about BYU teaching evolution? Do you think anyone would argue about UC Berkeley teaching evolution? The issue is not evolution but the fact that people EXPECT BYU to uphold a certain set of opinions and indeed argue in favor of those opinions. It is a school for apologists essentially. It teaches "How to Get Through Life Without Losing Your Testimony" as the whole aim of the university. Could that possibly be unclear to anyone??? Why go there at all if you want to have a free exchange of ideas??? Clearly that is not the purpose of the school. Why did I know that before I was even a member and members don't?? It is a church school. That's what church schools do, and that is what they are for. Duh. 2
KevinG Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 The BYU Mission Statement... this should add some pertinent data to the discussion. http://aims.byu.edu/mission_statement 2
Jeanne Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Joining another church is apostasy. Apostasy is self-excommuncation in every church I know of, for precisely the reason you have shown. As I recall, apostasy means automatic excommunication in a church disciplinary council. If the code calls for being expelled for being excommunicated I don't see any way out of it unless excommunicated members can stay in the university. So now we have ex-mormon groups spreading the anti-Mormon gospel to impressionable freshmen. Is there another way out of that possibility? I am not seeing it. There seems to be no way out of the status quo without very undesirable consequences.Not necessarily. This could work both ways. Missionaries are everywhere right? Universities should provide education and some real world knowledge. The question is..Can the church in a church school withstand its own truth. You do it everyday I am sure..meet people who are antagonistic or perhaps just disagrees with the faith..young people cannot run from this. What is wrong with real world experience?
KevinG Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Not necessarily. This could work both ways. Missionaries are everywhere right? Universities should provide education and some real world knowledge. The question is..Can the church in a church school withstand its own truth. You do it everyday I am sure..meet people who are antagonistic or perhaps just disagrees with the faith..young people cannot run from this. What is wrong with real world experience? BYU would be a lightening rod for those who wish to target and shake the faith of young Saints. Taking a fishing rod into a wildlife hatchery comes to mind. College is not the real world, and we have every expectation that there will be rules, regulations, structures, and protections for college students that protect them in the artificial environment they are growing in. That applies to every college, not just BYU. 1
carbon dioxide Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) I think if a person decides to leave the LDS Church while at BYU, they should be allowed to finish up the semester they are in. I don't support them to continue beyond that simply because there are a lot of LDS who want to go to BYU but there are only so many slots. They are occupying a position that another LDS person could take. Edited October 7, 2015 by carbon dioxide 1
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I think if a person decides to leave the LDS Church while at BYU, they should be allowed to finish up the semester they are in. I don't support them to continue beyond that simply because there are a lot of LDS who want to go to BYU but there are only so many slots. They are occupying a position that another LDS person could take.I think that is a reasonable solution.
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I think if a person decides to leave the LDS Church while at BYU, they should be allowed to finish up the semester they are in. I don't support them to continue beyond that simply because there are a lot of LDS who want to go to BYU but there are only so many slots. They are occupying a position that another LDS person could take. I think that is a reasonable solution. Reasonable but I really don't think it would stop the complaints. 2
jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Reasonable but I really don't think it would stop the complaints. I for one don't expect the church to change the policy, but I would welcome this as at least extending some kindness to the students in question. Besides, since when does doing kindness depend on whether people appreciate it or not>
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I for one don't expect the church to change the policy, but I would welcome this as at least extending some kindness to the students in question. Besides, since when does doing kindness depend on whether people appreciate it or not> I think that would be fair seeing as how the inertia of bureaucracy probably takes that long anyway.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I for one don't expect the church to change the policy, but I would welcome this as at least extending some kindness to the students in question. Besides, since when does doing kindness depend on whether people appreciate it or not>Maybe you should take that up with Jesus Christ, who said: 21 And in nothing doth man aoffend God, or against none is his bwrath ckindled, save those who dconfess not his hand in all things, and eobey not his commandments. 1
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