jkwilliams Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Maybe you should take that up with Jesus Christ, who said: Not sure of the relevance to what I said.
Russell C McGregor Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 It has nothing to do with honestly. Or do you think Catholic converts to Mormonism are dishonest somehow? As you know, that isn't what ERay said. The honesty in view is the honesty involved in keeping the commitments a student made when she enrolled at BYU. And the notion that it's not a real university unless every student is entirely free to make up her own mind about whatever information comes her way is undiluted waste water from a pig cleaning facility. Students, especially undergraduate students, in any university I've ever come across, are expected to reach acceptable conclusions on almost every subject. If the question is "What is the result of combining HCl and NaOH2," any answer other than "NaCl and H2O" will be marked wrong. A religious university is no less a university for having a religious mission. Indeed, it's rather hard to imagine what sort of universities would exist anywhere without the influence of religious scholarship. At all the oldest and most prestigious universities in the world, the most "venerable" faculty or college is invariably Theology. BYU is a religious university. Students who freely choose to enrol as part of the LDS intake, thus freely signing up to the conditions of their enrolment, are entirely free to change their religion, and thus give up their place at the university. What they are not free to do is renege on their side of the agreement while still expecting BYU to keep its side. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Not sure of the relevance to what I said. Just that it sounds as though he gets angry (wrath kindled) toward those who fail to acknowledge (appreciate) his hand in all things and keep his commandments.
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Just that it sounds as though he gets angry (wrath kindled) toward those who fail to acknowledge (appreciate) his hand in all things and keep his commandments. I didn't realize BYU set policy based on anger.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) As you know, that isn't what ERay said. The honesty in view is the honesty involved in keeping the commitments a student made when she enrolled at BYU. And the notion that it's not a real university unless every student is entirely free to make up her own mind about whatever information comes her way is undiluted waste water from a pig cleaning facility. Students, especially undergraduate students, in any university I've ever come across, are expected to reach acceptable conclusions on almost every subject. If the question is "What is the result of combining HCl and NaOH2," any answer other than "NaCl and H2O" will be marked wrong. A religious university is no less a university for having a religious mission. Indeed, it's rather hard to imagine what sort of universities would exist anywhere without the influence of religious scholarship. At all the oldest and most prestigious universities in the world, the most "venerable" faculty or college is invariably Theology. BYU is a religious university. Students who freely choose to enrol as part of the LDS intake, thus freely signing up to the conditions of their enrolment, are entirely free to change their religion, and thus give up their place at the university. What they are not free to do is renege on their side of the agreement while still expecting BYU to keep its side.Especially if that expectation impacts deserving students who might be able to enroll at the university if the slots were freed up. Edited October 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I didn't realize BYU set policy based on anger. I didn't say that. 1
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Especially if that expectation mpacts deserving students who might be able to enroll at the university if the slots were freed up. If a student is expelled in the middle of the semester (as is the policy now), no slot is freed up.
Senator Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Maybe you should take that up with Jesus Christ, who said: Whoa, that's heavy dude, heavy...
Scott Lloyd Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) If a student is expelled in the middle of the semester (as is the policy now), no slot is freed up. Freeing up slots is not the only consideration. Reneging on a contract is a valid concern. The lost investment on the part of the Church is another. Faithful Church members whose tithes subsidize the tuition of each student expect there to be a return on the investment in the form of graduates who are professionally and spiritually prepared to go into the world and bring credit to the Church and help build the kingdom of God. Edited October 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 3
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Freeing up slots is not the only consideration. Reneging on a contract is a valid concern. The lost investment on the part of the Church is another. Faithful Church members whose tithes subsidize the tuition of each student expect there to be a return on the investment in the form of graduates who are professionally and spiritually prepared to go into the world and bring credit to the Church and help build the kingdom of God. Maybe they should be allowed to finish the semester if they make up the difference in tuition. Like I said, I don't think the policy will change, but I do think it could be handled with more kindness. I know, some people believe those who leave the church do not deserve any compassion.
ERayR Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Maybe they should be allowed to finish the semester if they make up the difference in tuition. Like I said, I don't think the policy will change, but I do think it could be handled with more kindness. I know, some people believe those who leave the church do not deserve any compassion. Rather it is a college or a government bureaucracies are not noted for having compassion.
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Rather it is a college or a government bureaucracies are not noted for having compassion. I was thinking more of the comments I am hearing that these people have broken their covenants, reneged on their agreements, and should be shown the door. Just seems unnecessarily harsh.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Maybe they should be allowed to finish the semester if they make up the difference in tuition. Like I said, I don't think the policy will change, but I do think it could be handled with more kindness. I know, some people believe those who leave the church do not deserve any compassion. I can't see any halfway good rationale for changing the policy except, possibly, taking pity on the student in question. But even that is not a very strong one as there are options available. People transfer to a different school all the time. Rarely is it such an onerous hardship that they can't work through it. And ceasing to support the mission and purpose of the university strikes me as a very good reason for transferring out.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) I was thinking more of the comments I am hearing that these people have broken their covenants, reneged on their agreements, and should be shown the door. Just seems unnecessarily harsh.Unnecessarily harsh to invoke the provisions of a contract? Nonsense. A contract is in place to protect the rights of not one but both or all parties to it. Edited October 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd 2
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I can't see any halfway good rationale for changing the policy except, possibly, taking pity on the student in question. But even that is not a very strong one as there are options available. People transfer to a different school all the time. Rarely is it such an onerous hardship that they can't work through it. And ceasing to support the mission and purpose of the university strikes me as a very good reason for transferring out. You lose your tuition and whatever grades you've earned for the semester, for one thing. Transferring out is usually done at the end of a semester. If you lose your honor code standing, you are done immediately.
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Unnecessarily harsh to invoke the provisions of a contract? Nonsense. A contract is in place to protect the rights of not one but both or all parties to it. Like I said, I'm glad I never was in that position, It wouldn't cost the university much if anything to let them finish the semester. But it doesn't matter what I think.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) You lose your tuition and whatever grades you've earned for the semester, for one thing. Transferring out is usually done at the end of a semester. If you lose your honor code standing, you are done immediately. Reneging on a contract has its consequences. The contract would be worthless if it were not enforced or enforceable. Edited October 8, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Reneging on a contract has its consequences. the contract would be worthless if it were not enforced or enforceable. I would think having your honor code standing pulled and being forced out of school is enforcement of the contract, even if they allowed you to finish out the semester. It doesn't really matter, as this is not going to change anytime soon.
ERayR Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) I was thinking more of the comments I am hearing that these people have broken their covenants, reneged on their agreements, and should be shown the door. Just seems unnecessarily harsh. Think about it for a minute. When you get a job and if you have a job contract(verbal or written) and you break one of those contract covenants You are gone. You may get time enough to clean out your desk or maybe not. They usually don't wait untill the end of the pay period so you can make your house payment. Doesn't seem any different to me. Edited October 8, 2015 by ERayR
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Think about it for a minute. When you get a job and if you have a job contract(verbal or written) and you break one of those contract covenants You are gone. You may get time enough to clean out your desk or maybe not. Doesn't seem any different to me. I am not paying tuition to my employer.
ERayR Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I am not paying tuition to my employer. Think contract. You know like contract enforcement.
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 It does raise an interesting question: would a non-LDS student be expelled if they were actively promoting their religious beliefs to other students?
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Think contract. You know like contract enforcement. I've said before that BYU is well within its rights to have and enforce this policy, but I do think the university should be a little more compassionate in dealing with such students. Otherwise, it's best for these kids to keep their heads down and finish out the semester quietly.
mfbukowski Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 The BYU Mission Statement... this should add some pertinent data to the discussion. http://aims.byu.edu/mission_statementYep.I don't see anything in there about openness to as many ex-Mormons as possible, do you? 1
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Yep.I don't see anything in there about openness to as many ex-Mormons as possible, do you? We won't rest until every BYU student is an ex-Mormon.
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