Making A Statement About Free Byu

[Senator]

That's a #10 size can of worms, there, BTH&T

 

But honestly, that's probably why it got so much attention. The perception of "unfairness" is enough to make our PC culture go bananas at the drop of a hat.

 

I'm a fan of fairness.

[BTH&T]

That's a #10 size can of worms, there, BTH&T

 

But honestly, that's probably why it got so much attention. The perception of "unfairness" is enough to make our PC culture go bananas at the drop of a hat.

True, I would love to reallt find out what is behind "FreeBYU".

I have a suspecion I'll tell you about someday.

[ERayR]

Yes, they consented. People consent to poorly designed policies all the time. But the question is if that is an ethical or appropriate policy for a university. What is legal is not always ethical. 

 

It only became a poor decision to consent to that policy when it was triggered by their own action.  When one buys a car and agrees to make specified payments at a specified time and if they are not made when due the car will be repossessed.  That seems reasonable and an okay.  Then comes a time when the payments cannot be made and the car is repossessed and now it doesn't seem like such a good idea but the car is repossessed.

[BTH&T]

You can tell i am used to spell check, my spelling/posting is terrible.

[iWriteStuff]

I'm a fan of fairness.

 

Most folks are. I think the issue at stake here is the "correctness" of the policy, though. Hard to argue it's unfair to enforce a policy they already agreed to. But is it the correct policy? Therein lies the controversy.

[BTH&T]

I'm a fan of fairness.

Fairness is great, what is unfair about it?

 

Living to ones commitments is what life is all about.

 

The ol' Justice vs Mercy debate

 

There is nothing unfair nor unethical about the current policy.

[ERayR]

I'm a fan of fairness.

 

I am too. That includes the students who lived up to their agreement.

[Gray]

It only became a poor decision to consent to that policy when it was triggered by their own action.  When one buys a car and agrees to make specified payments at a specified time and if they are not made when due the car will be repossessed.  That seems reasonable and an okay.  Then comes a time when the payments cannot be made and the car is repossessed and now it doesn't seem like such a good idea but the car is repossessed.

 

No, it's a poor policy because it's restrictive of religious and academic freedom. Universities shouldn't have such policies. 

[BTH&T]

No, it's a poor policy because it's restrictive of religious and academic freedom. Universities shouldn't have such policies. 

I have my opinion as do you, but I still do not see one bit of freedom lost.

It must just be something that we can disagree about.

 

The sad part is there are many that want to do away with consequences.

In the end of mortality there will be consequences, why not here?

[rockpond]

I have my opinion as do you, but I still do not see one bit of freedom lost.

It must just be something that we can disagree about.

 

A young person who has been raised LDS applies and is accepted to BYU at the age of 17.  Five years later, they have served a mission and a 3/4 of the way to having completed their degree.  Through study and prayer they determine that they need to resign their membership as a matter of following personal revelation and their conscience.  Doing so would mean losing a tremendous amount of money & work in lost credit hours toward a degree if they are expelled from school in their final year.

 

You still don't see "one bit of freedom lost"?

[mfbukowski]

There are people who no longer believe in the foundational LDS doctrines who continue on at BYU with no problem whatsoever. The difference between the Free BYU agitators (those behind the web site and who contribute testimonials --- and those who cheer them on) and these people is respect and class --- wanting to publicly spit in the Church's face vs. not.

 

I'm in my second "tour" as a bishop right now, and my father was a YSA bishop for six years (long past the Church's recommended three years for YSA bishops). We know who many/most of our people are who are having testimony problems to varying degrees. Most of these people don't want to make anything of it, especially publicly. When they counsel with their bishops, they are open about it, and they are open to counsel received. They do not want to bring any embarrassment to the Church or BYU, and they understand their leaders concern about their status as BYU students. They handle themselves with class and respect towards the Church.

 

If you read the Free BYU testimonials, these people are quite different. They want to be able to formally leave the Church (have their names actually removed from Church records) while retaining their status as a student, keeping scholarships, etc. This is absurd. 

 

I'll say again what I said above: If they want to be the noble martyrs they paint themselves as, they need to be willing to suffer the consequences of their martyrdom. Even when it's hard (such as having to finish their degree somewhere else, at a higher financial cost). This would demonstrate to all the noble heroism of their convictions and their cause.

This is exactly the case.  When one is a bishop one learns that doubts and concerns are a normal part of faith in any religion.  Mother Theresa, now on her way to sainthood or perhaps there for the Catholics, confessed that she had numerous doubts about God's very existence.  

 

One does not wake up one morning deciding to leave the church.  It is a gradual process that could take months or years for some.  In the midst of an acute faith crisis it would be silly to just jump ship and leave the church- I think no reasonable person would do that.

 

When one has had doubts for months or years, a month or two should make no difference.  Absolute certainty that any belief is true or false does not come instantly and with certitude.  I myself had a strong spiritual experience which confirmed my belief in the church, but it took years of philosophical training to establish a base for me intellectually that such an experience could be a "rational"  way to make life-changing decisions.   Yes, I converted almost overnight, but it was after years of study to define my basic beliefs in general parameters of what I felt was a "rational" way to make such a decision. 

 

Nearly always it is impossible to define an exact moment when one knows for sure what course our lives should take.  The fact that virtually every bride and groom feel anxiety when "the moment" to commit comes demonstrates that such decisions do not come instantly.  Divorce also takes years in many cases, months in others.  Rarely does it change overnight.

 

Yet suppose it does happen overnight.  So you lose half a semester's work for your honesty?  Who would want to continue one more day on a course that one finally saw to be completely wrong regardless of a few credits yet unearned??

 

If I was a witness to corruption or some other drastic direct evidence of the church being "wrong" I would not ask for my tithing back, but I would leave immediately.  I would cut my losses and ascribe my 40 years of member ship as an interesting education in human psychology and go on with life without the church.  I would not regret the service I offered to others, but see that as something I did for which was positive, even if perhaps the theory behind those decisions were wrong.   In fact I would feel about the Mormon church the same I felt about the Catholic church and even my stint as a Communist atheist- thankful for the education I had received about myself and human institutions.

 

I will never understand those who would decry the loss of a portion of a semesters work, yet unearned because incomplete, when refusing to continue in an institution I was absolutely convinced, and certain, that the institution was wrong.

 

But I guess others here would.  ??

[iWriteStuff]

You still don't see "one bit of freedom lost"?

They're absolutely free -  to go to a different school.

 

Or is BYU not free to set and enforce their own policies? It sounds like the argument here is that the student should be free to break their agreement and BYU should not be free to enforce it.

[Sleeper Cell]

But as a disillusioned Mormon, I think of what these kids are going through. It's not a fun process at all, and it just makes it worse to worry on top of it that you're going to lose a semester of school (and the money you spent on it) and have to explain why you were expelled to the schools you apply to following that.

Actually, when these “kids” [i.e., adults] apply to other schools, mentioning that they were expelled from BYU over “a matter of conscience” would probably help them, especially if the “matter of conscience” was that they left the LDS church.  They might even be able to get Professor JM to write a letter of recommendation.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

[iWriteStuff]

Yet suppose it does happen overnight.  So you lose half a semester's work for your honesty?  Who would want to continue one more day on a course that one finally saw to be completely wrong regardless of a few credits yet unearned??

 

haha "I can't get expelled now or I won't get any credit for this Book of Mormon class.... waaaaaaaait a sec...."

[Senator]

I have my opinion as do you, but I still do not see one bit of freedom lost.

It must just be something that we can disagree about.

 

The sad part is there are many that want to do away with consequences.

In the end of mortality there will be consequences, why not here?

 

Let's focus here.

 

No one is wanting to do away with consequences.

 

Some are proposing that in this instance there are unnecessary harsh consequences imposed.

[BTH&T]

A young person who has been raised LDS applies and is accepted to BYU at the age of 17.  Five years later, they have served a mission and a 3/4 of the way to having completed their degree.  Through study and prayer they determine that they need to resign their membership as a matter of following personal revelation and their conscience.  Doing so would mean losing a tremendous amount of money & work in lost credit hours toward a degree if they are expelled from school in their final year.

 

You still don't see "one bit of freedom lost"?

They could transfer to a different school.

It sounds strange that one could "study and pray" and discover their testimony disappeared.

I know you put out a hypothetical, what other aspects of the persons life are not in harmony with the restored Gospel?

[jkwilliams]

Let's focus here.

 

No one is wanting to do away with consequences.

 

Some are proposing that in this instance there are unnecessary harsh consequences imposed.

 

Exactly.

[rockpond]

Or is BYU not free to set and enforce their own policies? It sounds like the argument here is that the student should be free to break their agreement and BYU should not be free to enforce it.

 

Again, I am glad that BYU has the freedom to set such a policy - and enforce it.  But to do so is to limit the religious freedom of the students who attend there.

[BTH&T]

Actually, when these “kids” [i.e., adults] apply to other schools, mentioning that they were expelled from BYU over “a matter of conscience” would probably help them, especially if it the “matter of conscience” was that they left the LDS church.  They might even be able to get Professor JM to write a letter of recommendation.

If one is contemplating leaving the Church (these cases are made to sound like they leave on their choice) why not transfer first?

This is one of the red flags to me, they have a remedy and don't use it.

[thesometimesaint]

A young person who has been raised LDS applies and is accepted to BYU at the age of 17.  Five years later, they have served a mission and a 3/4 of the way to having completed their degree.  Through study and prayer they determine that they need to resign their membership as a matter of following personal revelation and their conscience.  Doing so would mean losing a tremendous amount of money & work in lost credit hours toward a degree if they are expelled from school in their final year.

 

You still don't see "one bit of freedom lost"?

 

It doesn't matter if it is their first day of the first class or the last day before graduation from school. If they can't/won't live up to their voluntary agreements then they need to do the honorable thing and voluntarily leave.

 

The solution is to take transferable classes.  Before I went to BYU that is all I took.

 

They are still free to believe anything they want. They shouldn't expect that others will still have to pay them for it.

[rockpond]

They're absolutely free -  to go to a different school.

 

They could transfer to a different school.

It sounds strange that one could "study and pray" and discover their testimony disappeared.

I know you put out a hypothetical, what other aspects of the persons life are not in harmony with the restored Gospel?

 

These responses reminder me of Elder Ballard's statement from this "Doctrine of Inclusion" address:

 

"...if neighbors become testy or frustrated because of some disagreement with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or with some law we support for moral reasons, please don’t suggest to them—even in a humorous way—that they consider moving someplace else. I cannot comprehend how any member of our Church can even think such a thing!"

 

Neither of you really answered my question in the post you responded to regarding whether any freedom had been lost in my hypothetical.  I assume your lack of an answer indicates that you can see how some freedom was lost.

 

It actually isn't strange that one could study and pray and find that their testimony had changed.  It happens all the time.

 

For my hypothetical, you can assume that the person is not out of harmony with the restored Gospel and that they are living all other aspects of the honor code.  Free BYU is not arguing that students shouldn't have to live the honor code.

[rockpond]

It doesn't matter if it is their first day of the first class or the last day before graduation from school. If they can't/won't live up to their voluntary agreements then they need to do the honorable thing and voluntarily leave.

 

The solution is to take transferable classes.  Before I went to BYU that is all I took.

 

They are still free to believe anything they want. They shouldn't expect that others will still have to pay them for it.

 

Yes, they are free to believe anything they want.  They just can't do it at BYU.

[mfbukowski]

If nothing else, I'm glad this thread prompted me to have a conversation with several BYU-Idaho students last night via Skype. The students I talked to recognized, as I do, that some subjects (mostly religion classes) will be seen through a faithful lens, but that doesn't necessarily bleed into other areas. Like me, they have been exposed to ideas that are diametrically opposed to church teachings. 

 

I certainly was exposed to things that challenged my beliefs at BYU. I recall a non-LDS student in my literary theory classes expressing deep frustration because, as she put it, "We talk about these challenging ideas that have direct impact on how we live our lives, and people engage them here, but the second we leave class, these ideas are put on the shelf and everyone goes back to what they already believe." 

 

Looking back, I remember being taught quite a few non-faith-promoting things at the Y, such as:

 

It is a simple fact that humans are a product of organic evolution, and creationism has no basis in science.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did some unsavory and terrible things that we as Mormons sweep under the rug.

The priesthood ban and the scriptures justifying it are simple products of 19th-century racism.

The real history of Mesoamerica does not include Nephites and Lamanites.

There is no archaeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon, and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

Mormon doctrine and scripture are quite often based on erroneous readings of the English King James Version.

Lehi's dream is likely an adaptation of Joseph Smith Sr's dream.

The inclusion of passages of "deutero-Isaiah" in the Book of Mormon is an anachronism that can only be explained if we acknowledge that Joseph Smith put it in there himself.

It's wrong to say "we know" when we are bearing testimony because a testimony is a strong spiritual belief but not knowledge.

Capitalism, particularly the American version, has been the scourge of Latin America and has ground the faces of the poor. The only solution is for the wealthiest 20% of Latin America to be shot and a socialist system implemented.

Mormon doctrine and practice is very much a product of American Protestant capitalist culture, and therefore it is not a good fit for most cultures around the world. 

The development of the modern church is quite similar to the development of Stalinism, and the end products are in some ways indistinguishable.

Women are devalued and excluded in Mormonism, and the only way they exert any power is when they "strap on a plastic penis" metaphorically and ape the behavior of their male superiors. Even then, their authority is as fake as the plastic penis.

Women experience the world and think and write in a more "diverse" manner than do men. This is because men's sexual arousal is focused entirely on one organ, whereas female arousal is much more diverse.

 

I'm sure I could think of some more things, but those are off the top of my head. I don't know why I feel the need to defend my alma mater, but it seems grossly unfair to portray BYU as a place that serves only to reinforce the beliefs its students had coming in. 

Assuming all these highly offensive assertions are "true", whatever that means in your context, I see no reason for these alleged "facts" to have any effect on your testimony.

 

Incidentally, were it in my power, I would ban you for some of these comments, regardless of if you heard them at BYU.  Such trash does not belong on this board.  I am seldom shocked by you anymore, but this takes the cake.

 

When one understands the search for meaning we all must create for ourselves, such drivel is completely irrelevant.  This is what I meant in my earlier post, that you do not understand that there are no "facts", just interpretations we create for ourselves.

 

Where we disagree is in our chosen interpretations and ways of seeing the world.  Pretty basic stuff.  We could not be farther apart.  Don't pm me any more.

[BTH&T]

Exactly.

I think this is exactly the issue.

If they do something to be excommunicated, there are consequences.

If they lose faith they can continue on while struggling with their faith.

Or they can transfer.

 

But look at what the "cause" people do;

they put themselves in harms way and then cry foul when they get hurt.

 

Like what I read of your book on amazon, I'll have to get it.

[iWriteStuff]

It doesn't matter if it is their first day of the first class or the last day before graduation from school. If they can't/won't live up to their voluntary agreements then they need to do the honorable thing and voluntarily leave.

 

The solution is to take transferable classes.  Before I went to BYU that is all I took.

 

They are still free to believe anything they want. They shouldn't expect that others will still have to pay them for it.

 

Honor seems one sided to the Free BYU team. The university should be obligated to allow them to violate their agreement and the members of the church should be obligated to continue subsidizing their tuition, but the student is obligated to.....???