stemelbow Posted October 8, 2015 Author Posted October 8, 2015 I would say "manfully" accept the consequences. They don't have to be happy about it, per se, but they should be willing to accept the consequences. Even if this is an academic or financial inconvenience for them. Whether or not I "like" those at BYU who lose their faith depends entirely on what they do about it and how they act. I know and respect several people who have lost their faith in the Church and its foundations --- that, too, depends entirely on how, exactly, they act about it. And if it's a woman? It's completely appropriate, I think, if they disagree with a policy that they lobby to get that policy changed. You seem to think that they should just accept the policy even if they disagree. That's just not what America is about.
Gray Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I think that's the real friction point. Some view it as primarily a university. Others as primarily a means to build up church leaders. This friction is found on this board, in the halls at BYU, and within church leadership itself. Well, as we saw in general conference, BYU is not necessarily a source for recruiting new apostles 1
iWriteStuff Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 The students want to finish their education with BYU, faith mixed with education as part of it. Sure they came to BYU for a reason, but as it turned out as they learned and grew, their ideas changed. I thought that's what we hoped for from students. Since when is faith an idea? "I'm sorry, Joseph Smith, but I'm smarter now than I was two years ago and no longer believe in the Restoration. But please, don't stop the tuition subsidies." 1
rongo Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 It is quite possible to resign one's membership in the church and at the same time treat the church with class and respect and avoid disparaging the church. Yes, it is. I know people in this boat. The difference is that I don't personally think one should be able to remain a student at BYU (let alone retain scholarships), with the heavy subsidizing via tithing --- for both members and non-members --- when publicly or formally resigning one's membership. There is a difference between people in general resigning but continuing to treat the Church with class and respect, and current BYU students resigning their membership. That's specifically what I'm referring to.
Gray Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 You know, a lot of Christian Universities will invite famous atheists in for debates. They seem more confident in their theology and their ability to defend it. I can't imagine that happening at BYU. Does this all come down to insecurity?
Gray Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Quiet unbelief is a lot less of a problem than violating the honor code through secret behavior, and that happens all the time. One of my former mission companions came out as gay a number of years ago. He was telling me that when he was teaching at the MTC, he met a guy that he really hit it off with, and they decided to get an apartment together. During his senior year, they were basically living together as a couple, going to school, and teaching at the MTC. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like a more egregious violation of the honor code (not to mention the employment agreement at the MTC) than someone quietly deciding they don't believe in the church anymore. There seems to be an unspoken assumption that students who lose their faith are likely to try and convert their fellow students to their unbelief. For most people I know, the process of losing faith is so painful that you're barely able to breathe, and you don't have any desire to add to the pain by proselytizing your friends and family. (That comes later. lol) Well, to be fair, a lot of exmormons seem to have a great deal of zeal for reverse evangelizing. They may lose their faith but they don't lose their basic Mormon DNA, it seems. 1
Gray Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 And I think his points are awful. The original purpose of the university was to provide education combined with faith. What faith? Ours, naturally. Now he's trying to use a scalpel and legalese to separate one from the other and thinks that's not in conflict with the school's established purpose. Sorry, you can get your education anywhere. But people come to BYU because they want a certain kind of education: one tempered with faith. If that's not your aim, you're wasting everyone's time. You can accomplish that goal without policing people's minds.
rongo Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 And if it's a woman? I'm using "manfully" in the general human-kind sense (like "mankind") to denote bravely, boldly. I might have predicted that proponents of "Free BYU" would be sticklers for "gender-neutral" adverbs . . . It's completely appropriate, I think, if they disagree with a policy that they lobby to get that policy changed. You seem to think that they should just accept the policy even if they disagree. That's just not what America is about. No, I think they should "manfully" accept the consequences of violating the policy once they take a "courageous" stand. Specifically, when resigning from the Church.
Gray Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Yet when it suits your purposes you argue that BYU = LDS Church. Come now you can't have it both ways. I don't think I've ever made that argument. In fact I think BYU's policies in many ways run contrary to fundamental Mormon principles.
iWriteStuff Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 You know, a lot of Christian Universities will invite famous atheists in for debates. They seem more confident in their theology and their ability to defend it. I can't imagine that happening at BYU. Does this all come down to insecurity? "Famous atheists" - there's a new phrase for my collection. The conflict is not atheism vs Mormonism, it's Mormons who resign and expect to continue receiving the benefits of Mormon tithing payers. Please stick to the topic.
jkwilliams Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I don't think I've ever made that argument. In fact I think BYU's policies in many ways run contrary to fundamental Mormon principles. Indeed. My father once said that, as far as he can tell, BYU doesn't believe in the Atonement. 1
Gray Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Yes, it is. I know people in this boat. The difference is that I don't personally think one should be able to remain a student at BYU (let alone retain scholarships), with the heavy subsidizing via tithing --- for both members and non-members --- when publicly or formally resigning one's membership. There is a difference between people in general resigning but continuing to treat the Church with class and respect, and current BYU students resigning their membership. That's specifically what I'm referring to. I don't think non-members receive subsidized education.
iWriteStuff Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) You can accomplish that goal without policing people's minds. Policing people's minds? It takes a very overt act to go to one's bishop and say "Please take my name off the roles of the church." I think that's called expressing one's mind. And as others have said, if that's your mind, please also consider the fact that actions have consequences. Edited October 8, 2015 by iWriteStuff
Gray Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 "Famous atheists" - there's a new phrase for my collection. The conflict is not atheism vs Mormonism, it's Mormons who resign and expect to continue receiving the benefits of Mormon tithing payers. Please stick to the topic. That's not the issue. Exmormons could simply pay the non-Mormon rate.
Gray Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Indeed. My father once said that, as far as he can tell, BYU doesn't believe in the Atonement. Indeed. Not to mention the multiplication of rules to create a hedge around the law.
rongo Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Absurd? During my freshman year at BYU we had a kid in our dorm who, after much study and prayer, made the difficult decision to follow what the Spirit was telling him and change the religion of his upbringing. Should he have expected to remain a student? Not if the change was from LDS to something non-LDS. Keep his scholarship (assuming he had one)? See above. Why would it be absurd for him to have those expectations? Because of BYU policy and the honor code. This is all well-known, which is why Free BYU, et. al. are trying to change the policy.
iWriteStuff Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 That's not the issue. Exmormons could simply pay the non-Mormon rate. Enter Category 2's position: Then they should only admit Mormons.
Gray Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Policing people's minds? It takes a very overt act to go to one's bishop and say "Please take my name off the roles of the church." I think that's called expressing one's mind. And as others have said, if that's your mind, please also consider the fact that actions have consequences. Right, as I said, policing people's minds. Even Oceania had to wait until people said something before the thought police were called in.
Gray Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Enter Category 2's position: Then they should only admit Mormons. As long as BYU cares about its football program, that will never happen 1
iWriteStuff Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Right, as I said, policing people's minds. Even Oceania had to wait until people said something before the thought police were called in. I'll say it again: acting against a policy one originally agreed to is not thought police. It's taking a deliberate action with a consequence. It was an action when you signed the contract and an action when you broke it. The fact that thoughts are involved does not diminish the use of actions to accomplish their purpose.
rongo Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 I don't think non-members receive subsidized education. They absolutely do. Compare BYU's non-member tuition with any state university in-state tuition. Non-member tuition at BYU is still a huge bargain. It's not as heavily-subsidized as it is for members, but it's still subsidized. 1
Senator Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) The way the school is being described here by some, perhaps there should be a renaming. BYS Brigham Young Seminary or BYMI Brigham Young Monastic Institute Edited October 8, 2015 by Senator 1
iWriteStuff Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) The way the school is being described here by some, perhaps there should be renaming. BYS Brigham Young Seminary or BYMI Brigham Young Monastic Institute Interesting statement. I counter it with the following: I was talking with Bro. Maeser, who is principal of the Brigham Young Academy, in Provo. I saw the students go through their various exercises in the several classes, and I was congratulating him upon the success, when he remarked − "There is one thing, Pres. Taylor, I will guarantee, that is, that no infidels will go from my school." He would teach them the Gospel, and inculcate its principles, which are so far advanced of infidelity, that it would have to hide its hoary head in shame before the light, glory, and intelligence that comes from God, and that exist in all his works, and that fools do not comprehend. JD 20:48, John Taylor, August 4th, 1878 So I guess it's either not "seminary" enough in its current state or there are forces at work opposed to students nourishing faith while otherwise engaged in their studies there. I guess you can pick which it is and prescribe the appropriate remedy. Edited October 8, 2015 by iWriteStuff
Jeanne Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Just wanted to say that most all students everywhere find some character building experiences in college/universities. That being said, in my view..tattling on friends for what they believe is not character building. 1
rockpond Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Not if the change was from LDS to something non-LDS. See above. Because of BYU policy and the honor code. This is all well-known, which is why Free BYU, et. al. are trying to change the policy. So, as a matter of religious freedom, do you see any problem with a policy that allows a student to change their religion to LDS but not away from LDS?
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