Making A Statement About Free Byu

[Buckeye]

There are people who no longer believe in the foundational LDS doctrines who continue on at BYU with no problem whatsoever. The difference between the Free BYU agitators (those behind the web site and who contribute testimonials --- and those who cheer them on) and these people is respect and class --- wanting to publicly spit in the Church's face vs. not.

 

I'm in my second "tour" as a bishop right now, and my father was a YSA bishop for six years (long past the Church's recommended three years for YSA bishops). We know who many/most of our people are who are having testimony problems to varying degrees. Most of these people don't want to make anything of it, especially publicly. When they counsel with their bishops, they are open about it, and they are open to counsel received. They do not want to bring any embarrassment to the Church or BYU, and they understand their leaders concern about their status as BYU students. They handle themselves with class and respect towards the Church.

 

If you read the Free BYU testimonials, these people are quite different. They want to be able to formally leave the Church (have their names actually removed from Church records) while retaining their status as a student, keeping scholarships, etc. This is absurd. 

 

I'll say again what I said above: If they want to be the noble martyrs they paint themselves as, they need to be willing to suffer the consequences of their martyrdom. Even when it's hard (such as having to finish their degree somewhere else, at a higher financial cost). This would demonstrate to all the noble heroism of their convictions and their cause.

 

Rongo, the people who sign the Free BYU petition are making a public statement and will therefor suffer any consequences from that stand. I don't see any of them claiming to be martyrs. Some are former students who were harmed by the policy while they were students. Most are sympathizers who were not personally impacted, but feel the policy to be wrong. They're not claiming to be heroes, simply advocates for a better BYU.

 

The real people you are demonizing are most likely not listed on the petition. The current BYU students who are harmed by the policy most likely do not take a public stand because they would be expelled. Criticize them if you want, but again (1) they are not the names on the petition and (2) any criticism you paint them with applies in spades to our own church leaders who, for the sake of their belief in polygamy, lied and hid from the consequences of those actions (not to mention Nephi and many other scriptural examples of people who ran away from the consequences of their actions). I agree with you that it would be braver for a current student to risk the consequence of expulsion, but I'm no more willing to condemn them for their choice than I am to condemn Nephi or President Taylor.

 

ETA: It is quite possible to resign one's membership in the church and at the same time treat the church with class and respect and avoid disparaging the church.

 

And thank you for your service as bishop.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Buckeye

[rockpond]

If you read the Free BYU testimonials, these people are quite different. They want to be able to formally leave the Church (have their names actually removed from Church records) while retaining their status as a student, keeping scholarships, etc. This is absurd. 

 

Absurd?

 

During my freshman year at BYU we had a kid in our dorm who, after much study and prayer, made the difficult decision to follow what the Spirit was telling him and change the religion of his upbringing.  Should he have expected to remain a student?  Keep his scholarship (assuming he had one)?

 

Why would it be absurd for him to have those expectations?

[thesometimesaint]

Absurd?

 

During my freshman year at BYU we had a kid in our dorm who, after much study and prayer, made the difficult decision to follow what the Spirit was telling him and change the religion of his upbringing.  Should he have expected to remain a student?  Keep his scholarship (assuming he had one)?

 

Why would it be absurd for him to have those expectations?

 

I can see it now. "Hey boss. I hate your company; I don't like the product your making; Your rules are stupid; God told me to leave; I want you to continue to pay me". Like that will ever happen.

[stemelbow]

I can see it now. "Hey boss. I hate your company; I don't like the product your making; Your rules are stupid; God told me to leave; I want you to continue to pay me". Like that will ever happen.

How is this seriously considered a parallel to what is talked about when it comes to Free BYU?

[Sleeper Cell]

Absurd?

 

During my freshman year at BYU we had a kid in our dorm who, after much study and prayer, made the difficult decision to follow what the Spirit was telling him and change the religion of his upbringing.  Should he have expected to remain a student?  Keep his scholarship (assuming he had one)?

 

Why would it be absurd for him to have those expectations?

 

Let me guess.  He was a non-LDS student who changed his religion to LDS. Which. of course, does not violate the agreement he made with BYU.

 

If -- as a condition for being allowed to attend BYU  -- he had made an agreement with BYU to not change his religion to LDS, he should not have expected to remain a student or keep his scholarship.  It is one thing to argue that a particular condition should never have been in the contract, or even to argue that the other party should not enforce that particular condition. Quite another to argue that the first party should have no expectations that it would be enforced.  

 

BTW, I am on board with granting a conditional waiver, on a case by case basis, to allow “transitioning” LDS students to finish the current semester and provide assistance/counseling to facilitate transfer to another school.  Sort of along the lines that Calm has suggested.

[thesometimesaint]

How is this seriously considered a parallel to what is talked about when it comes to Free BYU?

 

Free BYU wants the Church to continue to pay for their education.

[stemelbow]

Free BYU wants the Church to continue to pay for their education.

Even if that were the case it does not equate to an employee who won't work, hates the company and product. As it is BYU can still treat their students as assets, rather than treat them as outcasts. Employers do well to treat their employees as assets, rather than holding a threat of expulsion over them if they disagree with a business decision here or there.

[HappyJackWagon]

Free BYU wants the Church to continue to pay for their education.

No it doesn't.

Free BYU has suggested the comprimise of charging non-LDS rates for students who transition away from mormonism.

[jkwilliams]

If nothing else, I'm glad this thread prompted me to have a conversation with several BYU-Idaho students last night via Skype. The students I talked to recognized, as I do, that some subjects (mostly religion classes) will be seen through a faithful lens, but that doesn't necessarily bleed into other areas. Like me, they have been exposed to ideas that are diametrically opposed to church teachings. 

 

I certainly was exposed to things that challenged my beliefs at BYU. I recall a non-LDS student in my literary theory classes expressing deep frustration because, as she put it, "We talk about these challenging ideas that have direct impact on how we live our lives, and people engage them here, but the second we leave class, these ideas are put on the shelf and everyone goes back to what they already believe." 

 

Looking back, I remember being taught quite a few non-faith-promoting things at the Y, such as:

 

It is a simple fact that humans are a product of organic evolution, and creationism has no basis in science.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did some unsavory and terrible things that we as Mormons sweep under the rug.

The priesthood ban and the scriptures justifying it are simple products of 19th-century racism.

The real history of Mesoamerica does not include Nephites and Lamanites.

There is no archaeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon, and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

Mormon doctrine and scripture are quite often based on erroneous readings of the English King James Version.

Lehi's dream is likely an adaptation of Joseph Smith Sr's dream.

The inclusion of passages of "deutero-Isaiah" in the Book of Mormon is an anachronism that can only be explained if we acknowledge that Joseph Smith put it in there himself.

It's wrong to say "we know" when we are bearing testimony because a testimony is a strong spiritual belief but not knowledge.

Capitalism, particularly the American version, has been the scourge of Latin America and has ground the faces of the poor. The only solution is for the wealthiest 20% of Latin America to be shot and a socialist system implemented.

Mormon doctrine and practice is very much a product of American Protestant capitalist culture, and therefore it is not a good fit for most cultures around the world. 

The development of the modern church is quite similar to the development of Stalinism, and the end products are in some ways indistinguishable.

Women are devalued and excluded in Mormonism, and the only way they exert any power is when they "strap on a plastic penis" metaphorically and ape the behavior of their male superiors. Even then, their authority is as fake as the plastic penis.

Women experience the world and think and write in a more "diverse" manner than do men. This is because men's sexual arousal is focused entirely on one organ, whereas female arousal is much more diverse.

 

I'm sure I could think of some more things, but those are off the top of my head. I don't know why I feel the need to defend my alma mater, but it seems grossly unfair to portray BYU as a place that serves only to reinforce the beliefs its students had coming in. 

[Gray]

Remaining true to gospel covenants once one has accepted them.

 

Loyalty to Jesus Christ and His Church.

 

Loyalty to family.

 

Loyalty to untold numbers of Church members who sacrifice to subsidize the education of young people they hope will go out and strengthen the Church and Kingdom of God.

 

As BYU is a university and not a seminary, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But if the idea is to strengthen testimonies, who needs that more than people who have lost theirs? 

[ERayR]

We won't rest until every BYU student is an ex-Mormon.

 

Well there you have folks.  You do have your work cut out for you.

[iWriteStuff]

It would appear most folks on here fall into one of two categories:

 

1) Make the policy more relaxed to accommodate those currently attending who no longer wish to honor their original relationship with the college and disavow themselves of their membership. Folks in this category want BYU to change their policy to make room for ex-Mormons, essentially capitulating to the protestors who value their own "religious freedom" over the religious freedom of the institution to set their own policies.

 

2) Make the policy more strict so that only LDS students can be accepted at BYU. Current policy stands, with new exclusions established for those of other faiths. It makes for a more straight forward approach to dissenters, but may have the negative optics as being overly selective and exclusive.

 

Which camp do the majority fall into? And would the majority make a difference if their preference is still overruled by the Board of Trustees?

[jkwilliams]

Well there you have folks.  You do have your work cut out for you.

 

No kidding. My efforts to destroy faith have been a dismal failure, even in my immediate family.

[jkwilliams]

It would appear most folks on here fall into one of two categories:

 

1) Make the policy more relaxed to accommodate those currently attending who no longer wish to honor their original relationship with the college and disavow themselves of their membership. Folks in this category want BYU to change their policy to make room for ex-Mormons, essentially capitulating to the protestors who value their own "religious freedom" over the religious freedom of the institution to set their own policies.

 

2) Make the policy more strict so that only LDS students can be accepted at BYU. Current policy stands, with new exclusions established for those of other faiths. It makes for a more straight forward approach to dissenters, but may have the negative optics as being overly selective and exclusive.

 

Which camp do the majority fall into? And would the majority make a difference if their preference is still overruled by the Board of Trustees?

 

A number of us don't fall into either camp. If BYU doesn't think ex-Mormons should be allowed, that's their prerogative. I just think there should be a more compassionate way for these kids to transition out. If you're going to kick them out mid-semester, at least you could refund their tuition for that semester. But I don't see why it's such a big deal to let people finish the semester, given the condition folks like Calm have outlined.

[Buckeye]

As BYU is a university and not a seminary, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But if the idea is to strengthen testimonies, who needs that more than people who have lost theirs? 

 

I think that's the real friction point. Some view it as primarily a university. Others as primarily a means to build up church leaders. This friction is found on this board, in the halls at BYU, and within church leadership itself.

[Gray]

Mark Juergensmeyer, the professor who refused to attend the symposium,  posted this letter to the Religion Dispatch. In it he says:

 

"A university that calls itself a university is a public institution. It is not a Sunday school. Regardless of who sponsors it, the university is a public trust. It provides necessary skills to accredit individuals for jobs in the public arena, and just as important, it provides that social space that I referred to above—the arena for the free expression of ideas—that is important for an educated society and for an individual’s own intellectual growth.

But what about honor codes that many universities impose? These are usually attempts to regulate behavior—not thought. They attempt to prohibit, for example, alcohol and pot in student dorms. Prohibitions against thinking, against ideas that are counter to administrators’ beliefs, however, should have no place in a university.

Although I am not an expert in issues of religious freedom in American higher education, I do not know of many attempts to prohibit the free expression of thought. It would be as if a university expelled a student for accepting the scientific account of evolution, or if another university expelled a student for voting Democrat. Perhaps such cases exist, but I would be opposed to them as well."

 

See entire letter:

http://religiondispatches.org/why-i-boycotted-a-conference-at-brigham-young-university/

 

I think he makes some great points. 

[Gray]

I can see it now. "Hey boss. I hate your company; I don't like the product your making; Your rules are stupid; God told me to leave; I want you to continue to pay me". Like that will ever happen.

 

BYU ≠ LDS Church, and students are not employees. They are, in fact, customers 

Edited October 8, 2015 by Gray

[jkwilliams]

Quiet unbelief is a lot less of a problem than violating the honor code through secret behavior, and that happens all the time. One of my former mission companions came out as gay a number of years ago. He was telling me that when he was teaching at the MTC, he met a guy that he really hit it off with, and they decided to get an apartment together. During his senior year, they were basically living together as a couple, going to school, and teaching at the MTC. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like a more egregious violation of the honor code (not to mention the employment agreement at the MTC) than someone quietly deciding they don't believe in the church anymore.

 

There seems to be an unspoken assumption that students who lose their faith are likely to try and convert their fellow students to their unbelief. For most people I know, the process of losing faith is so painful that you're barely able to breathe, and you don't have any desire to add to the pain by proselytizing your friends and family. (That comes later. lol)

[ERayR]

A number of us don't fall into either camp. If BYU doesn't think ex-Mormons should be allowed, that's their prerogative. I just think there should be a more compassionate way for these kids to transition out. If you're going to kick them out mid-semester, at least you could refund their tuition for that semester. But I don't see why it's such a big deal to let people finish the semester, given the condition folks like Calm have outlined.

 

Sort of like a severance pay?

[iWriteStuff]

I think he makes some great points. 

 

And I think his points are awful. The original purpose of the university was to provide education combined with faith. What faith? Ours, naturally. Now he's trying to use a scalpel and legalese to separate one from the other and thinks that's not in conflict with the school's established purpose.

 

Sorry, you can get your education anywhere. But people come to BYU because they want a certain kind of education: one tempered with faith. If that's not your aim, you're wasting everyone's time.

[filovirus]

I think he makes some great points. 

Here's what's going on in California.

 

http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/22839/

 

"Prohibitions against thinking, against ideas that are counter to administrators’ beliefs, however, should have no place in a university." Mark Jeurgensmeyer

[ERayR]

BYU ≠ LDS Church, and students are not employees. They are, in fact, customers 

 

Yet when it suits your purposes you argue that BYU = LDS Church.  Come now you can't have it both ways.

[stemelbow]

And I think his points are awful. The original purpose of the university was to provide education combined with faith. What faith? Ours, naturally. Now he's trying to use a scalpel and legalese to separate one from the other and thinks that's not in conflict with the school's established purpose.

 

Sorry, you can get your education anywhere. But people come to BYU because they want a certain kind of education: one tempered with faith. If that's not your aim, you're wasting everyone's time.

The students want to finish their education with BYU, faith mixed with education as part of it. Sure they came to BYU for a reason, but as it turned out as they learned and grew, their ideas changed. I thought that's what we hoped for from students.

[jkwilliams]

Sort of like a severance pay?

 

No, just a refund on a semester's education that was not received, sort of like getting a refund on a plane ticket if you had to cancel. 

[rongo]

I'm confused about your point. Are you now saying BYU is noble for adding a restriction so faith-leavers can really be heroes only if they happily accept the consequence? I don't see people wanting to be martyrs. I see people wanting to see a reasonable policy. Whether they are noble, martyrs or heroes has nothing to do with it. this really just amounts to off-topic commentary about people you don't like, it seems to me.

I would say "manfully" accept the consequences. They don't have to be happy about it, per se, but they should be willing to accept the consequences. Even if this is an academic or financial inconvenience for them.

 

Whether or not I "like" those at BYU who lose their faith depends entirely on what they do about it and how they act. I know and respect several people who have lost their faith in the Church and its foundations --- that, too, depends entirely on how, exactly, they act about it.