Making A Statement About Free Byu

[mfbukowski]

Not necessarily.  This could work both ways.  Missionaries are everywhere right?  Universities should provide education and some real world knowledge.  The question is..Can the church in a church school withstand its own truth.  You do it everyday I am sure..meet people who are antagonistic or perhaps just disagrees with the faith..young people cannot run from this.  What is wrong with real world experience?

Absolutely nothing, but you are missing the point.  The whole idea is to train HOW to deal with that "real world experience" from a gospel point of view, not from an ex-Mormon point of view.

 

The Y presents a point of view- not a free exchange of ideas.  That is the whole point.  It is ONE point of view, not all of them.  It is extensive training in one way of seeing reality. THAT is it's avowed purpose.

 

If you want something else, you should go where you find it.  You don't find art films on the Disney channel, or Marxism in the Republican Party.

[jkwilliams]

Absolutely nothing, but you are missing the point.  The whole idea is to train HOW to deal with that "real world experience" from a gospel point of view, not from an ex-Mormon point of view.

 

The Y presents a point of view- not a free exchange of ideas.  That is the whole point.  It is ONE point of view, not all of them.  It is extensive training in one way of seeing reality. THAT is it's avowed purpose.

 

If you want something else, you should go where you find it.  You don't find art films on the Disney channel, or Marxism in the Republican Party.

 

Did you go to BYU? Nothing I experienced there in 6 years told me it was about "extensive training in one way of seeing reality." I can't wrap my head around such an idea. If I believed that the church or the board of trustees shared your vision, I would have discouraged my kids from attending BYU. 

Edited October 8, 2015 by jkwilliams

[mfbukowski]

BYU would be a lightening rod for those who wish to target and shake the faith of young Saints.  Taking a fishing rod into a wildlife hatchery comes to mind.  College is not the real world, and we have every expectation that there will be rules, regulations, structures, and protections for college students that protect them in the artificial environment they are growing in.  That applies to every college, not just BYU.

I did my undergrad at UCLA.   We were actually trained to question everything.  That was virtually part of the curriculum.  That was the avowed purpose.  As you have shown that is not at all the BYU purpose.

 

The guy who wrote the letter that sparked the OP just did not understand that.  He is so locked into his whole paradigm of what a university should be that he cannot imagine another way of seeing it.

[sethpayne]

 

The Y presents a point of view- not a free exchange of ideas.  That is the whole point.  It is ONE point of view, not all of them.  It is extensive training in one way of seeing reality. THAT is it's avowed purpose.

 

 

I disagree.

 

As a BYU student that I was exposed to MANY different viewpoints that ran counter to the Gospel.  Other religions, philosophy, etc...  BYU is a university and universities exist for the very purpose of a free and open exchange of ideas.

 

What you are describing sounds more like indoctrination and my BYU education was nothing like that.

[mfbukowski]

I for one don't expect the church to change the policy, but I would welcome this as at least extending some kindness to the students in question. Besides, since when does doing kindness depend on whether people appreciate it or not>

If one is a member of the Republican party, campaigning for a specific presidential candidate, would it be kindness to allow a convert to a communist candidate to remain with the Republican campaign?  Why would he want to be there at all?

 

The point is that the Y's avowed purpose is to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ as interpreted by Mormonism.  If you are not in favor of actively pursuing that objective, you do not belong in the campaign.

 

It has nothing to do with kindness, it has to do with performing a job and a goal.   You are either in favor of the goal or you are not.  To put it very bluntly you are part of the solution or part of the problem, when  the world is seen this way.

 

Church schools in all religions are not like other universities, they have a goal and a mission and an objective in teaching a specific point of view.  Either you are with the program or you are not.

 

I think the problem is that people expect BYU to be like other universities where such academic freedom is expected.  It is not like that, nor should it be.

[jkwilliams]

I disagree.

 

As a BYU student that I was exposed to MANY different viewpoints that ran counter to the Gospel.  Other religions, philosophy, etc...  BYU is a university and universities exist for the very purpose of a free and open exchange of ideas.

 

What you are describing sounds more like indoctrination and my BYU education was nothing like that.

 

I got a good education at BYU (BA and MA), and it was nothing like what Mark describes. I'm shocked that an alumnus would describe BYU in those terms. Very strange.

[jkwilliams]

If one is a member of the Republican party, campaigning for a specific presidential candidate, would it be kindness to allow a convert to a communist candidate to remain with the Republican campaign?  Why would he want to be there at all?

 

The point is that the Y's avowed purpose is to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ as interpreted by Mormonism.  If you are not in favor of actively pursuing that objective, you do not belong in the campaign.

 

It has nothing to do with kindness, it has to do with performing a job and a goal.   You are either in favor of the goal or you are not.  To put it very bluntly you are part of the solution or part of the problem, when  the world is seen this way.

 

Church schools in all religions are not like other universities, they have a goal and a mission and an objective in teaching a specific point of view.  Either you are with the program or you are not.

 

I think the problem is that people expect BYU to be like other universities where such academic freedom is expected.  It is not like that, nor should it be.

 

I'm not disputing that at all, Mark. I am just saying that it seems unnecessary to expel kids in the middle of a semester because they don't believe anymore. 

[Calm]

I think if a person decides to leave the LDS Church while at BYU, they should be allowed to finish up the semester they are in. I don't support them to continue beyond that simply because there are a lot of LDS who want to go to BYU but there are only so many slots. They are occupying a position that another LDS person could take.

I would be more comfortable with this policy if this was allowed for students who opened up about it themselves as long as they agreed to limit their extended religious conversation with bishops and counselors and did not attempt to promote their new set of beliefs or share material that discouraged faith in the gospel. Let them finish the semester and provide help in transferring and adjustments so that they get needed support without feeling like the best option is to go talk about it with those who are negative about the Church, Gospel, etc.

Anyone discovered proselyting against the LDS faith should still be allowed to be expelled or if they were hanging out on exmormon or other sites badmouthing the school, etc.. The school should be able to kick out anyone not telling the truth about their activities.

While there still would be complaints, by lowering the difficulities created with openness, those willing to compromise their integrity (not talking about those who choose to keep their struggles to themselves) by pretending to be abiding by the standards in public while trashtalking,etc. when they feel safe will be more likely to move out of the school. Those who are honest about their struggles are more likeNly to get the help they need to overcome them before it goes too far. A win win win for everyone.

This may be how the policy is generally put into operation in most cases given the options of bishops. There aren't stats out there, so who knows.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

I didn't realize BYU set policy based on anger.

You can twist anything.  It is a real talent. And with a smile. 

 

Nice touch.

[jkwilliams]

I would be more comfortable with this policy if this was allowed for students who opened up about it themselves as long as they agreed to limit their extended religious conversation with bishops and counselors and did not attempt to promote their new set of beliefs or share material that discouraged faith in the gospel. Let them finish the semester and provide help in transferring and adjustments so that they get needed support without feeling like the best option is to go talk about it with those who are negative about the Church, Gospel, etc.

Anyone discovered proselyting against the LDS faith should still be allowed to be expelled or if they were hanging out on exmormon or other sites badmouthing the school, etc.. The school should be able to kick out anyone not telling the truth about their activities.

While there still would be complaints, by lowering the difficulities created with openness, those willing to compromise their integrity (not talking about those who choose to keep their struggles to themselves) by pretending to be abiding by the standards in public while trashtalking,etc. when they feel safe will be more likely to move out of the school. Those who are honest about their struggles are more likely to get the help they need to overcome them before it goes too far. A win win win for everyone.

 

Again, I think this is completely reasonable. I sure wouldn't want to be at a church-owned school any longer than I had to if I didn't believe. I don't understand the attitude that assumes that people who lose faith should be kicked to the curb immediately. How likely is it that a kid who is struggling in his or her faith is going to open up to a priesthood leader if they know they might be kicked out? 

Edited October 8, 2015 by jkwilliams

[Calm]

The Y presents a point of view- not a free exchange of ideas.  That is the whole point.  It is ONE point of view, not all of them.  It is extensive training in one way of seeing reality. THAT is it's avowed purpose.

.

I would say it is more like a range of views are nurtured...the faithful spectrum. Depending on one's choices, a student can be exposed to much more than that though.

[jkwilliams]

I would say it is more like a range of views are nurtured...the faithful spectrum. Depending on one's choices, a student can be exposed to much more than that though.

 

Yes. Just before my first semester of grad school, I attended a week-long seminar on Marxism from an actual Marxist at BYU. At one point, he even said some rather disparaging things about Joseph Smith. 

[JAHS]

Mark Juergensmeyer, the professor who refused to attend the symposium,  posted this letter to the Religion Dispatch. In it he says:

 

"A university that calls itself a university is a public institution. It is not a Sunday school. Regardless of who sponsors it, the university is a public trust. It provides necessary skills to accredit individuals for jobs in the public arena, and just as important, it provides that social space that I referred to above—the arena for the free expression of ideas—that is important for an educated society and for an individual’s own intellectual growth.

But what about honor codes that many universities impose? These are usually attempts to regulate behavior—not thought. They attempt to prohibit, for example, alcohol and pot in student dorms. Prohibitions against thinking, against ideas that are counter to administrators’ beliefs, however, should have no place in a university.

Although I am not an expert in issues of religious freedom in American higher education, I do not know of many attempts to prohibit the free expression of thought. It would be as if a university expelled a student for accepting the scientific account of evolution, or if another university expelled a student for voting Democrat. Perhaps such cases exist, but I would be opposed to them as well."

 

See entire letter:

http://religiondispatches.org/why-i-boycotted-a-conference-at-brigham-young-university/

Edited October 8, 2015 by JAHS

[jkwilliams]

I am currently skyping with an apartment full of BYU-Idaho students. They all rolled their eyes at the notion that they are in school to get extensive training in one point of view (I sent the entire quote). Direct quote from one student: "That sounds like a cult, not like a university."

Edited October 8, 2015 by jkwilliams

[mfbukowski]

One would think that anyone with any sense who knew about the policy would wait until the end of the semester to confess their apostasy.

 

Problem solved.

[jkwilliams]

One would think that anyone with any sense who knew about the policy would wait until the end of the semester to confess their apostasy.

 

Problem solved.

 

On that we agree. Some people here seem to think that's dishonest.

[mfbukowski]

I am currently skyping with an apartment full of BYU-Idaho students. They all rolled their eyes at the notion that they are in school to get extensive training in one point of view.

Yes I suppose that is hard to see when it is happening.

 

I had kids who went there and they were very aware of it, but didn't mind, or left when they figured it out.  Oh well.  I have said all I have to say.

[jkwilliams]

Yes I suppose that is hard to see when it is happening.

 

I had kids who went there and they were very aware of it, but didn't mind, or left when they figured it out.  Oh well.  I have said all I have to say.

 

I am well-aware that some professors tiptoe around certain subjects, but I absolutely disagree with the statement that church universities exist to provide extensive training in one point of view. I certainly would have been reluctant to pay for my kids (2 so far) to attend BYU if that were the case.

[rongo]

 

 

Easy solution:  BYU becomes LDS-only.  No non-members allowed as professors or students.

Well, with an exception for athletes, right? . . .

 

One observation I'll make, having joined this long after it metastatized, is that the Free BYU agitators (those behind the web site and contributing testimonials) are cowardly. They want full martyr status while being shielded from any actual martyrdom. That is, they ostensibly want to address an alleged horrific injustice by "taking a stand," but without any consequence  for their stand. It would be like those practicing civil disobedience during the Civil Rights Era doing civil disobedience, but not ever having to be arrested for sit-ins, refusals, etc. 

 

The heroic part of civil disobedience (or in this case, disobeying policy) comes from suffering the consequences of the heroic choice. In this case, those wanting to openly leave the Church while at BYU want to be able to do that, but not incur the consequences for that (consequences that are clearly spelled out in the honor code). Heroic "here I stand --- I can do nothing else" stands by definition involve sacrifice and deletrious consequences.

[mfbukowski]

I disagree.

 

As a BYU student that I was exposed to MANY different viewpoints that ran counter to the Gospel.  Other religions, philosophy, etc...  BYU is a university and universities exist for the very purpose of a free and open exchange of ideas.

 

What you are describing sounds more like indoctrination and my BYU education was nothing like that.

One can present any idea especially those of a factual nature in a way which does not appear to be advocacy of the position.  I could talk about atheism all day or Buddhism or Greek mythology (the very term mythology labels the discussion as being about the folly of others beliefs) without identifying Zeus with Heavenly Father or Christ as an avatar of Vishnu.

 

Communism can easily be identified with a Zion society or not as one desires. either in glowing terms of peace and freedom or in terms of oppression.

 

What is important is not WHAT is taught but HOW.  The context is all there is.  The context itself IS indoctrination. Usually the context is invisible to those untrained to see it.  It is as clear as the air they are breathing

 

But I have no problem with church schools

 

And no, I went only to Catholic schools and highly sectarian schools, nothing in between.   I converted to Mormonism after I was done with all that

[mfbukowski]

I am well-aware that some professors tiptoe around certain subjects, but I absolutely disagree with the statement that church universities exist to provide extensive training in one point of view. I certainly would have been reluctant to pay for my kids (2 so far) to attend BYU if that were the case.

Your awareness is another issue

 

We already know that we disagree on that one.

Edited October 8, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Well, with an exception for athletes, right? . . .

 

One observation I'll make, having joined this long after it metastatized, is that the Free BYU agitators (those behind the web site and contributing testimonials) are cowardly. They want full martyr status while being shielded from any actual martyrdom. That is, they ostensibly want to address an alleged horrific injustice by "taking a stand," but without any consequence  for their stand. It would be like those practicing civil disobedience during the Civil Rights Era doing civil disobedience, but not ever having to be arrested for sit-ins, refusals, etc. 

 

The heroic part of civil disobedience (or in this case, disobeying policy) comes from suffering the consequences of the heroic choice. In this case, those wanting to openly leave the Church while at BYU want to be able to do that, but not incur the consequences for that (consequences that are clearly spelled out in the honor code). Heroic "here I stand --- I can do nothing else" stands by definition involve sacrifice and deletrious consequences.

IOU a few points for that one.

[Five Solas]

One would think that anyone with any sense who knew about the policy would wait until the end of the semester to confess their apostasy.

 

Problem solved.

No doubt some do. 

 

But is this really what you want to encourage, mfbukowski?  LDS who are just going through the motions, smiling & faking their way through "worthiness" interviews--because they're worried about their degree, their social standing, economic implications, etc. 

 

You don't think there's too much of this going on already?  Your advice seems a bit nutty, at least to me...

 

--Erik

[rongo]

 

 

But is this really what you want to encourage, mfbukowski?  LDS who are just going through the motions, smiling & faking their way through "worthiness" interviews--because they're worried about their degree, their social standing, economic implications, etc. 

There are people who no longer believe in the foundational LDS doctrines who continue on at BYU with no problem whatsoever. The difference between the Free BYU agitators (those behind the web site and who contribute testimonials --- and those who cheer them on) and these people is respect and class --- wanting to publicly spit in the Church's face vs. not.

 

I'm in my second "tour" as a bishop right now, and my father was a YSA bishop for six years (long past the Church's recommended three years for YSA bishops). We know who many/most of our people are who are having testimony problems to varying degrees. Most of these people don't want to make anything of it, especially publicly. When they counsel with their bishops, they are open about it, and they are open to counsel received. They do not want to bring any embarrassment to the Church or BYU, and they understand their leaders concern about their status as BYU students. They handle themselves with class and respect towards the Church.

 

If you read the Free BYU testimonials, these people are quite different. They want to be able to formally leave the Church (have their names actually removed from Church records) while retaining their status as a student, keeping scholarships, etc. This is absurd. 

 

I'll say again what I said above: If they want to be the noble martyrs they paint themselves as, they need to be willing to suffer the consequences of their martyrdom. Even when it's hard (such as having to finish their degree somewhere else, at a higher financial cost). This would demonstrate to all the noble heroism of their convictions and their cause.

[stemelbow]

There are people who no longer believe in the foundational LDS doctrines who continue on at BYU with no problem whatsoever. The difference between the Free BYU agitators (those behind the web site and who contribute testimonials --- and those who cheer them on) and these people is respect and class --- wanting to publicly spit in the Church's face vs. not.

 

I'm in my second "tour" as a bishop right now, and my father was a YSA bishop for six years (long past the Church's recommended three years for YSA bishops). We know who many/most of our people are who are having testimony problems to varying degrees. Most of these people don't want to make anything of it, especially publicly. When they counsel with their bishops, they are open about it, and they are open to counsel received. They do not want to bring any embarrassment to the Church or BYU, and they understand their leaders concern about their status as BYU students. They handle themselves with class and respect towards the Church.

 

If you read the Free BYU testimonials, these people are quite different. They want to be able to formally leave the Church (have their names actually removed from Church records) while retaining their status as a student, keeping scholarships, etc. This is absurd. 

 

I'll say again what I said above: If they want to be the noble martyrs they paint themselves as, they need to be willing to suffer the consequences of their martyrdom. Even when it's hard (such as having to finish their degree somewhere else, at a higher financial cost). This would demonstrate to all the noble heroism of their convictions and their cause.

I'm confused about yor point. Are you now saying BYU is noble for adding a restriction so faith-leavers can really be heroes only if they happily accept the consequence? I don't see people wanting to be martyrs. I see people wanting to see a reasonable policy. Whether they are noble, martyrs or heroes has nothing to do with it. this really just amounts to off-topic commentary about people you don't like, it seems to me.