Gray Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Sounds like they want to make the rules, not abide by them. All students have to attend religon classes, so why "force" that agenda?As was stated in an earlier post, there are consequences to choises and actions. That's true in life as well as at BYU. A consequence to changing from Mormon to Muslim at BYU is expulsion. That's not religious freedom, though. Religious freedom would be allowing anyone to worship according to their own conscience without the consequence of expulsion.
Gray Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 There is a great deal of fear spread around in the Church regarding losing faith. I'd think, by far, this is the leading motivation behind this policy. That is a shame. We should be above this fear. Yes, there is the fear that believers will be "contaminated" in some way if unbelievers are allowed to stay, which shows some insecurity, I think. But also it's a curious position in that one of the supposed benefits to attending BYU is that it will strengthen your testimony. It seems counter productive to kick the people out who need that benefit the most. It would be like a ward not letting inactive people attend ward functions. 1
Gray Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I don't have any problem with people changing their minds(religion). I do have problems with people who change their minds and still want me to pay for it. Who is asking you to do that, though?
thesometimesaint Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 They won't kick you out for not believing in science, although you might have trouble passing your classes. Besides, I don't think BYU offers degrees in Mormon theology. AFAIK not directly. They do offer degrees in Religious Studies however. Which of necessity include knowledge about Mormon Theology
CA Steve Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I don't have any problem with people changing their minds(religion). I do have problems with people who change their minds and still want me to pay for it.I missed the part where people are asking you to pay for it differently than any other non-member student attending BYU.
stemelbow Posted October 7, 2015 Author Posted October 7, 2015 I don't have any problem with people changing their minds(religion). I do have problems with people who change their minds and still want me to pay for it. Nobody has asked you pay for their change. 1
BTH&T Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Wish I had more time to explain my understanding, but no I am not being presumptous.I do understand the Gospel and do believe that our individual actions bring us to where we are. Every time.We seem to want to blame someone or something for our errors, and yes this includes me.
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 A consequence to changing from Mormon to Muslim at BYU is expulsion. That's not religious freedom, though. Religious freedom would be allowing anyone to worship according to their own conscience without the consequence of expulsion. Is any one stopping them from changing from Mormon to Muslim? Just because there are consequences doesn't negate the freedom to change.
stemelbow Posted October 7, 2015 Author Posted October 7, 2015 Is any one stopping them from changing from Mormon to Muslim? Just because there are consequences doesn't negate the freedom to change. Just like threat of going to prison may stop someone from murdering...sure. 1
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Just like threat of going to prison may stop someone from murdering...sure. Now suddenly getting expelled from BYU is the equivalent of sending someone to prison. From reading this thread I thought going to BYU was the equivalent of being in prison. Will you please make up your mind. 1
Sleeper Cell Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Dr. Mark Juergensmeyer was interviewed for Mormon Stories. Here's an excerpt that I thought was interesting: MJ: To me it’s really quite shocking that a student would be expelled from an academic institution. They can be expelled from a church. I can understand that, I have no quarrel with that. Churches should be able to expel people for whatever reasons they want to expel people. That’s their business. But not from a university. Because a university is different. A university is a social institution in our society that’s dedicated to free inquiry and clear critical thinking and it should let the chips fall where they may. I feel very strongly about that. And a church run university is different than a secular university. Otherwise, why waste church funds to duplicate a service that are easily obtained elsewhere? Suppose an ex-LDS student was allowed to remain, but could be expelled for repeatedly proselytizing on campus on behalf of his new religious beliefs? Wouldn’t MJ equally criticize this policy? Some posters argue against the current BYU policy by saying that an ex-LDS student who does not engage in on-campus advocacy of his new views should be allowed to remain. Would it be OK in your opinion if BYU allowed them to remain, but expelled those ex-Mormons who repeatedly engaged in on-campus advocacy of their current religious views? If not, how would you responsd to MJ? 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Who is asking you to do that, though? The Church heavily subsidizes BYU for both LDS and nonLDS. It just subsidizes the LDS students more. Why should I/the Church be paying for former LDS students who won't live up to their commitments until after graduation? IE; I volunteered to serve in the US Military though The Draft was going strong at the time. I agreed to follow its rules until my Expiration of Term of Service. It is really a matter of basic honesty and living up to your agreements. 4
Senator Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Wish I had more time to explain my understanding, Yes, I wish you did too.
stemelbow Posted October 7, 2015 Author Posted October 7, 2015 Now suddenly getting expelled from BYU is the equivalent of sending someone to prison. From reading this thread I thought going to BYU was the equivalent of being in prison. Will you please make up your mind. Murdering someone should be followed with a really negative consequence. Learning and growing which may cause someone to change beliefs should not be followed with negative consequences imposed on someone. You seem to think they should. I don't.
stemelbow Posted October 7, 2015 Author Posted October 7, 2015 The Church heavily subsidizes BYU for both LDS and nonLDS. It just subsidizes the LDS students more. Why should I/the Church be paying for former LDS students who won't live up to their commitments until after graduation? IE; I volunteered to serve in the US Military though The Draft was going strong at the time. I agreed to follow its rules until my Expiration of Term of Service. It is really a matter of basic honesty and living up to your agreements. I'll just repeat. BYU should see their students, particularly those determined to finish degrees, as assets. And not treat them as outcasts. College is not the same as the Military. The comparison doesn't work, IMO. 1
Gray Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Is any one stopping them from changing from Mormon to Muslim? Just because there are consequences doesn't negate the freedom to change. Yes, the university is stopping students from making that change. If you do decide to make that change, you won't do it as a student - you'll be a non-student. In other words, you need to give up your enrollment to reclaim your religious freedom.
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Murdering someone should be followed with a really negative consequence. Learning and growing which may cause someone to change beliefs should not be followed with negative consequences imposed on someone. You seem to think they should. I don't. tss has said it quite well. Please slow down and read it, think on it for a minute and comprehend the concept of living up to your covenants(agreements). You have a chance to learn something important here. Don't blow it. The Church heavily subsidizes BYU for both LDS and nonLDS. It just subsidizes the LDS students more. Why should I/the Church be paying for former LDS students who won't live up to their commitments until after graduation? IE; I volunteered to serve in the US Military though The Draft was going strong at the time. I agreed to follow its rules until my Expiration of Term of Service. It is really a matter of basic honesty and living up to your agreements.
Gray Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 The Church heavily subsidizes BYU for both LDS and nonLDS. It just subsidizes the LDS students more. Why should I/the Church be paying for former LDS students who won't live up to their commitments until after graduation? IE; I volunteered to serve in the US Military though The Draft was going strong at the time. I agreed to follow its rules until my Expiration of Term of Service. It is really a matter of basic honesty and living up to your agreements. I don't believe the church subsidizes education for non-members.
Sleeper Cell Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Dr. Mark Juergensmeyer was interviewed for Mormon Stories. Here's an excerpt that I thought was interesting: ... MJ: I’m sure that in some other country if it was a Muslim country… and a Muslim student was converted to the Mormon faith and was kicked out of the university, I’m sure that administrators at BYU would be disturbed and would regard this as an affront to religious freedom. And they’d be right. If MJ were posting this here, I would issue a CFR. I, for one, would certainly not be disturbed if a Muslim university kicked out a Mormon convert or anyone else who did not meet their religious standards. I have seen no evidence that the BYU administrators would object, either. I would also issue a CFR re. his claims that “the “academic community [of secular universities] … is devoted to the free inquiry and free expression of beliefs.” Meaning, of course, in practice, not merely on paper. BTW, wouldn’t MJ’s own devotion to promoting free inquiry and free expression of beliefs have been better served, had he attended the BYU conference and engaged directly in the free expression of beliefs with the academic representatives of the offending institution? He had the opportunity to argue his case directly with the very people with whom he disagreed (and engage, face-to-face in back-and-forth dialog), but chose to “make a statement” from a distance, instead. 1
Tacenda Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I guess the lesson in this...stay away from school that controls thought or actions, in case you happen to change your mind. Too much time and monies invested to have it taken from you. But there are cases of individuals that the only way their parents will help with college is if they attend BYU, so they're left with not much choice. It's this....an Eagle or no driver's license. A mission or? A BYU education or? CHOICE!
stemelbow Posted October 7, 2015 Author Posted October 7, 2015 tss has said it quite well. Please slow down and read it, think on it for a minute and comprehend the concept of living up to your covenants(agreements). You have a chance to learn something important here. Don't blow it. I already responded to TSS Erayr. I'm sure you get something I do not, but if so, I'd appreciate you inform and not condescend.
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Yes, the university is stopping students from making that change. If you do decide to make that change, you won't do it as a student - you'll be a non-student. In other words, you need to give up your enrollment to reclaim your religious freedom. What do you not understand about keeping your agreements. Its basic honesty. 2
Senator Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Here's what I've been thinking: In the recent GC, Elder Ballard gave a impassioned plea for members to stay in The Good Ship Zion. In an past address Elder Uchdorf held out the olive branch to those who have left, saying, "there is yet a place for you here". Yet, here it appears that in the Good Ship's university on deck 9, if one is honest enough to express his doubts or dis beliefs, (even if he desires to stay aboard?) he will be made to walk the plank. Edited October 7, 2015 by Senator 1
Bob Crockett Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Students don't have religious freedom at BYU, though, if they are Mormon. If they wish to reclaim their religious freedom they will no longer be students. Why doesn't BYU have the religous freedom to set matriculation policies for its students? Isn't this the same as saying that the Church ought to force temples to admit non-members for weddings? is the "religous freedom" of non-member parents being trampled upon as well? Edited October 7, 2015 by Bob Crockett 3
ERayR Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 I guess the lesson in this...stay away from school that controls thought or actions, in case you happen to change your mind. Too much time and monies invested to have it taken from you. But there are cases of individuals that the only way their parents will help with college is if they attend BYU, so they're left with not much choice. It's this....an Eagle or no driver's license. A mission or? A BYU education or? CHOICE! I guess the consensus on this side of the argument is if you want something it is okay to be dishonest and lie to get it. You sure you really want to support that? 1
Recommended Posts