Making A Statement About Free Byu

[iWriteStuff]

Is there something inherently wrong with that?

 

Not to me. I'm perfectly in favor of the policy (and the church).

 

Keeping in mind I attended both BYU-I and BYU. In other words from strictest rules to strict rules. Never saw an issue with either nor did I have any trouble complying. If you don't like the policies, don't apply to the school. Problem solved.

Edited October 7, 2015 by iWriteStuff

[Gray]

Not to me. I'm perfectly in favor of the policy (and the church).

 

Keeping in mind I attended both BYU-I and BYU. In other words from strictest rules to strict rules. Never saw an issue with either nor did I have any trouble complying. If you don't like the policies, don't apply to the school. Problem solved.

 

I'd just like to point out that Dr. Juergensmeyer, in his interview, expressed only the deepest respect for Mormonism and all religions generally. But what might be an appropriate policy within a church might not be appropriate in a university setting. 

[longview]

What I'm saying is that freedom is not just the ability to do something followed by heavy consequences. Otherwise every despotic nation is "free" in that way.

And religious freedom in the US has never been unlimited. I do think that, in this case, the church is free to discriminate in this way against former members, but I don't think it's right. There was a case a while back in which a Catholic man was accepted into the BYU Law School, with the ecclesiastical endorsement of his Catholic leaders, but the acceptance was rescinded when the university discovered that he was a former Mormon. I think that's wrong.

It is not discrimination when the policy is applicable to ALL member students. Accommodations, restrictions and guidelines have to be made for allocating a limited resource (i.e. admission to BYU).

Why would a catholic student that was a former member want to attend BYU? His motives are very questionable. He used bad ethics for not disclosing his "situation" when applying. He used secrecy and subterfuge to get around BYU's policy.  I think it is a good policy for BYU to set a certain number or percentage of non-members to share the experience and to hopefully enrich the members as well.  But not by deception.

 

Yes, for now I think BYU will continue to be able to single out Mormon students for discrimination without losing accreditation. I wonder if eventually that might change, though. 

 

In any case, I think this issue is about what's right and wrong, not just about what is legally permissible.

It is silly for you to say that BYU wants to "single" out anybody. I think BYU has to protect itself from less than committed students who want the prestige of a BYU education that do not have appreciation or gratitude for church membership and living the Gospel.

To make an analogy, I remember my wife greatly appreciating being able to return canning bottles (glass jars) to the Cannery and getting 50 cents for each. But that stopped when it was discovered that people were abusing the system by returning bottles that did not belong to them and getting the money.

Those who just barely missed the "cut" because of students who abused the system should not be denied the great experience of attending. I would expect BYU to make reasonable efforts to see that honest and committed youngsters get that chance. The cheaters should go somewhere else.

[thesometimesaint]

If that's still true, it's only barely true. To quote one former BYU professor:

 

All due deference to the late great Hugh Nibley. Any university pumping out graduates without marketable skills really isn't worth the time, and money it takes to go there. Of course that can't be its only mission, but it has to be one. You'll learn more on the first day of your job than that four year period preceding it.

[rodheadlee]

Running for public office are we?

No, I'm 61. I was trying to remember if I lied in my childhood. I would have got the switch. I was raised non Mormon by very Mormon like parents. Lying was a big no-no. The statement that everybody lies made me wonder how anybody gets a TR or has the guts to face God after lying to get  a TR.

[Gilbert]

I'd just like to point out that Dr. Juergensmeyer, in his interview, expressed only the deepest respect for Mormonism and all religions generally. But what might be an appropriate policy within a church might not be appropriate in a university setting. 

If this were a public school we were talking about I would agree. But this is a private church school. Using your line of reasoning someone could also say that the Church should not be placing any restrictions on behavior or conduct outside what is normally enforced on public campuses. Nor should they require students to take institute classes or not cohabitate or... In short the Church should not be involved at all.

[jkwilliams]

No, I'm 61. I was trying to remember if I lied in my childhood. I would have got the switch. I was raised non Mormon by very Mormon like parents. Lying was a big no-no. The statement that everybody lies made me wonder how anybody gets a TR or has the guts to face God after lying to get  a TR.

 

If it makes you feel any better, you sort of cancel me out, as I've been told I'm fundamentally dishonest.

[Gray]

It is not discrimination when the policy is applicable to ALL member students. Accommodations, restrictions and guidelines have to be made for allocating a limited resource (i.e. admission to BYU).

Why would a catholic student that was a former member want to attend BYU? His motives are very questionable. He used bad ethics for not disclosing his "situation" when applying. He used secrecy and subterfuge to get around BYU's policy.  I think it is a good policy for BYU to set a certain number or percentage of non-members to share the experience and to hopefully enrich the members as well.  But not by deception.

 

It is silly for you to say that BYU wants to "single" out anybody. I think BYU has to protect itself from less than committed students who want the prestige of a BYU education that do not have appreciation or gratitude for church membership and living the Gospel.

To make an analogy, I remember my wife greatly appreciating being able to return canning bottles (glass jars) to the Cannery and getting 50 cents for each. But that stopped when it was discovered that people were abusing the system by returning bottles that did not belong to them and getting the money.

Those who just barely missed the "cut" because of students who abused the system should not be denied the great experience of attending. I would expect BYU to make reasonable efforts to see that honest and committed youngsters get that chance. The cheaters should go somewhere else.

 

Why does BYU have to protect itself?  I don't see the problem. As far as prestige goes, BYU isn't a top tier university. They have a great accounting program, sure. But short of that having BYU on your resume isn't a great advantage in the job market. 

 

In any case, this has nothing to do with "cheaters". It has to do with religious freedom. Mormon students are singled out and do not enjoy the same religious freedom that non-Mormon students at BYU enjoy. 

 

As far as dishonestly goes, the current BYU policy rewards that. But that's not really the topic of discussion. 

[Gray]

If this were a public school we were talking about I would agree. But this is a private church school. Using your line of reasoning someone could also say that the Church should not be placing any restrictions on behavior or conduct outside what is normally enforced on public campuses. Nor should they require students to take institute classes or not cohabitate or... In short the Church should not be involved at all.

 

It's an accredited university, which means in theory they should care about freedom of inquiry. Of course that doesn't mean BYU should be FORCED to change. But as a university they should care enough about academic and religious freedom to make the change themselves. 

Edited October 7, 2015 by Gray

[BTH&T]

Freedom: the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint

 

LDS students at BYU do not have religious freedom at the school so long as this policy stays in place. 

I respectfully disagree, students have freedom to attend or not attend, they do not have the right to set the rules.

[Gilbert]

It's an accredited university, which means in theory they should care about freedom of inquiry. Of course that doesn't mean BYU should be FORCED to change. But as a university they should care enough about academic and religious freedom to make the change themselves. 

So what influence (if any) do you think the Church should allow themselves to have on what takes place at their school?

[iWriteStuff]

I'd just like to point out that Dr. Juergensmeyer, in his interview, expressed only the deepest respect for Mormonism and all religions generally. But what might be an appropriate policy within a church might not be appropriate in a university setting. 

 

I think part of the problem you run into is that it's virtually impossible to separate the two. That being said, if you don't want anything to do with Mormons, you shouldn't go to a Mormon school.

[thesometimesaint]

It's an accredited university, which means in theory they should care about freedom of inquiry. Of course that doesn't mean BYU should be FORCED to change. But as a university they should care enough about academic and religious freedom to make the change themselves. 

 

Go to any state sponsored university astronomy department and use your "inquiring" into astrology to deny science. The state won't tell you can't believe it, but graduating in astronomy would be problematic for the university.

[BTH&T]

There is so much more to this topic than "freedom".

 

Since this issue came up some time ago I have felt that the real issue is not being addressed.

Why?

What has caused the students to "lose faith".

 

I am a very new member here and so a bit of a introduction.

To me things are very black or white, right or wrong. When things become gray it is because the adversary is wanting it to be.

 

Students have signed time and again to abide the honor code, to me this is just an example of the breaking of the honor code at BYU.

 

To find the real reason for "why" they leave the Church is a personal decesion each made, but with it came doing something in their own life that caused them to have the spirit withdrawn.

Not being judgemental, we all have our issues. But one does not just casually say, I'm not LDS anymore.

 

Soon I'll be able to start a thread to discuss some of my understandings and thoughts.

[Gray]

I respectfully disagree, students have freedom to attend or not attend, they do not have the right to set the rules.

 

Students don't have religious freedom at BYU, though, if they are Mormon. If they wish to reclaim their religious freedom they will no longer be students. 

[Gray]

So what influence (if any) do you think the Church should allow themselves to have on what takes place at their school?

 

Personally, I think most of the influence they already have is fine. Some required religious courses are fine, prohibiting drinking or premarital sex, all fine for a religious university. But as a university the academic and religious freedom afforded to students should be unhindered. There should be no belief test for students of any background. 

[stemelbow]

There is so much more to this topic than "freedom".

 

Since this issue came up some time ago I have felt that the real issue is not being addressed.

Why?

What has caused the students to "lose faith".

 

I am a very new member here and so a bit of a introduction.

To me things are very black or white, right or wrong. When things become gray it is because the adversary is wanting it to be.

 

Students have signed time and again to abide the honor code, to me this is just an example of the breaking of the honor code at BYU.

 

To find the real reason for "why" they leave the Church is a personal decesion each made, but with it came doing something in their own life that caused them to have the spirit withdrawn.

Not being judgemental, we all have our issues. But one does not just casually say, I'm not LDS anymore.

 

Soon I'll be able to start a thread to discuss some of my understandings and thoughts.

People have always "lost faith" and moved from one religion to another or no other. We're pretending if we think we know the complexities of why leaving. maybe God has designs for anyone who leaves. Perhaps the Spirit didn't leave a leaver at all.

Saying they lost the Spirit seems to assume things we simply don't know.

[Gray]

I think part of the problem you run into is that it's virtually impossible to separate the two. That being said, if you don't want anything to do with Mormons, you shouldn't go to a Mormon school.

 

I don't think that's really the issue, though. 

[BTH&T]

Students don't have religious freedom at BYU, though, if they are Mormon. If they wish to reclaim their religious freedom they will no longer be students. 

Sounds like they want to make the rules, not abide by them. All students have to attend religon classes, so why "force" that agenda?

As was stated in an earlier post, there are consequences to choises and actions. That's true in life as well as at BYU.

[Senator]

There is so much more to this topic than "freedom".

 

Since this issue came up some time ago I have felt that the real issue is not being addressed.

Why?

What has caused the students to "lose faith".

 

I am a very new member here and so a bit of a introduction.

To me things are very black or white, right or wrong. When things become gray it is because the adversary is wanting it to be.

 

Students have signed time and again to abide the honor code, to me this is just an example of the breaking of the honor code at BYU.

 

To find the real reason for "why" they leave the Church is a personal decesion each made, but with it came doing something in their own life that caused them to have the spirit withdrawn.

Not being judgemental, we all have our issues. But one does not just casually say, I'm not LDS anymore.

 

In regards to the bolded part, I believe you are being a bit presumptuous.

 

Just for example, having the onslaught of depression can dramatically effect one's perception of "having the spirit".

 

Be careful about those kind of sweeping judgements.

[stemelbow]

There is a great deal of fear spread around in the Church regarding losing faith. I'd think, by far, this is the leading motivation behind this policy. That is a shame. We should be above this fear.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

BTH&T-

To find the real reason for "why" they leave the Church is a personal decesion each made, but with it came doing something in their own life that caused them to have the spirit withdrawn.

Not being judgemental, we all have our issues. But one does not just casually say, I'm not LDS anymore.

This statement illustrates your lack of understanding about why people leave. You're falling into the standard trap of stereotyping others by demonizing their intentions, behavior, or testimony. People leave for many reasons. Reducing the variety of reasons into a "they lost the spirit because of sin" kind of explanation is extremely simplistic. You might benefit from a little research on this.

[Gray]

Go to any state sponsored university astronomy department and use your "inquiring" into astrology to deny science. The state won't tell you can't believe it, but graduating in astronomy would be problematic for the university.

 

They won't kick you out for not believing in science, although you might have trouble passing your classes. Besides, I don't think BYU offers degrees in Mormon theology. 

[ERayR]

This statement illustrates your lack of understanding about why people leave. You're falling into the standard trap of stereotyping others by demonizing their intentions, behavior, or testimony. People leave for many reasons. Reducing the variety of reasons into a "they lost the spirit because of sin" kind of explanation is extremely simplistic. You might benefit from a little research on this.

 

And don't stop looking until you find an answer that absolves them of any responsibility.

[thesometimesaint]

People have always "lost faith" and moved from one religion to another or no other. We're pretending if we think we know the complexities of why leaving. maybe God has designs for anyone who leaves. Perhaps the Spirit didn't leave a leaver at all.

Saying they lost the Spirit seems to assume things we simply don't know.

 

I don't have any problem with people changing their minds(religion). I do have problems with people who change their minds and still want me to pay for it.