Storm Rider Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 I had something similar happen when I was a temple worker. Being touched by a man through the veil triggered something from earlier abuse in her life. It derailed the session and those that hadn't made it through were asked to terminate their session. I approached the Temple President later expressing my concern for the names that were unable to complete the session. He told me that the names are used multiple times per week and events like this were unlikely to happen twice. Phaedrus All ordinances are recorded. Any member can go and find out the number of ordinances that have been performed for their ancestors and for other people. No, names are not used multiple times per week. If a name is used, but the ordinance is not completed it is reentered and in order that it is completed. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 All ordinances are recorded. Any member can go and find out the number of ordinances that have been performed for their ancestors and for other people. No, names are not used multiple times per week. If a name is used, but the ordinance is not completed it is reentered and in order that it is completed. There are two separate types of names at issue here. (1) the name under which nearly everyone goes through the temple on a particular day -- names which are reused on a regular schedule, and (2) specific, unique names of persons for whom the ordinance is being performed -- and the digitial systems avoid repeating those ordinances for them.
BlueDreams Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 There are two separate types of names at issue here. (1) the name under which nearly everyone goes through the temple on a particular day -- names which are reused on a regular schedule, and (2) specific, unique names of persons for whom the ordinance is being performed -- and the digitial systems avoid repeating those ordinances for them. are you talking about the new name for 1? If so yes, that's correct. I just wasn't sure between your post or phaedrus if that's what they were talking about. With luv,BD
phaedrus ut Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 All ordinances are recorded. Any member can go and find out the number of ordinances that have been performed for their ancestors and for other people. No, names are not used multiple times per week. If a name is used, but the ordinance is not completed it is reentered and in order that it is completed. I can only speak to the conversation I had with the temple president 20 years ago. I spent 18 months as a temple worker but wasn't in any position to verify the process of releasing the names for ordinances. Phaedrus
VideoGameJunkie Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 I'm trying to become a temple security guard so if I get the job then I'll probably have to escort people out. I spent the last 4 years doing security so hopefully it all comes together. 1
Tacenda Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 I can only speak to the conversation I had with the temple president 20 years ago. I spent 18 months as a temple worker but wasn't in any position to verify the process of releasing the names for ordinances. PhaedrusI've heard of recycled names in the past and temple names done over and over again. But with the influx of indexing that is being done by youth and adults everywhere it has helped provide names. Or is indexing just for a data base? Or there is more emphasis on doing our family history? All I know is when trying to find a name in my family back in the day, it was terribly difficult, and some of my family had multiple work done.
Calm Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 "I've heard of recycled names in the past and temple names done over and over again."Hearing rumors of it does not prove it actually took or takes place intentionally.
Tacenda Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 "I've heard of recycled names in the past and temple names done over and over again."Hearing rumors of it does not prove it actually took or takes place intentionally.I don't believe it's happening now, there was a change when computers were brought in and the department that checked each name by hand was no longer in existence. I think they have a more efficient way of doing it now, and more names.
smac97 Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 It would seem like the wiser position is do conclude nothing until we receive more information. Until then it is just an unfortunate incident. I doubt further information will be forthcoming. My surmise gives the OW folks the benefit of the doubt. Thanks, -Smac 1
Gray Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 I had something similar happen when I was a temple worker. Being touched by a man through the veil triggered something from earlier abuse in her life. It derailed the session and those that hadn't made it through were asked to terminate their session. I approached the Temple President later expressing my concern for the names that were unable to complete the session. He told me that the names are used multiple times per week and events like this were unlikely to happen twice. Phaedrus I have heard from multiple sources that this happens. It's a curious practice, especially if one believes in the literal efficacy of vicarious endowments and doesn't take them as more of a symbolic ritual. 1
DJBrown Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 My wife is a temple worker and she came home last night telling me about a new policy that is being put into effect. Apparently at the Timpanogos Temple last week a member of the ordain woman movement interrupted and shut down an endowment session. They tried to reason with her and I guess it got out of control. The new policy is to remain silent and call security to have them escorted out. I'm gauging that from the new policy, they are anticipating more interruptions of this nature. Has anyone heard about this? I tried doing a search but nothing has come up. I think this type of thing will eventually be an issue in our Sacrament Meetings. I think it is inevitable.
Duncan Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 I think...for some reason that names can get done a million times but with those little pink and blue name slips they give you you can't do those a bunch of times as they tick off and write down the date the ordinance was completed. I think it was Elder Widtsoe of the Twelve who years ago started some kind of clearing house to make sure that names weren't duplicated. Now it's all obviously computerized
ERayR Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 I can only speak to the conversation I had with the temple president 20 years ago. I spent 18 months as a temple worker but wasn't in any position to verify the process of releasing the names for ordinances. Phaedrus I have heard from multiple sources that this happens. It's a curious practice, especially if one believes in the literal efficacy of vicarious endowments and doesn't take them as more of a symbolic ritual. See Roberts Smiths post # 27.
Gray Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 See Roberts Smiths post # 27. Well, we know of celebrities who have had their work done over and over again. Are the systems to prevent that new? The person I heard about this from, who is in charge of genealogy work for our stake, said that most names in church databases have had their work done for them, and so they get recycled to give temple patrons something to do. Which is why, he said, there is a push to get more new names. By names I mean the names of deceased people, of course
sethpayne Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) "I've heard of recycled names in the past and temple names done over and over again."Hearing rumors of it does not prove it actually took or takes place intentionally. When I was a temple worker I did see names being done two or three times in a week on a couple of occasions but I wouldn't call that "over and over" because there was always an influx of new names and family members coming in to do work for the new names added. Edited September 17, 2015 by sethpayne
Calm Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Could you tell why they were being used over? Was it intentional or accidental?I take it they were unusual enough names and that you noticed dates (since some families repeat names, I have a number of names that are multiples in my genealogy for men and women, in the case of women the mother's maiden name isn't known though in one case, husband and wife had same last name...not from the same village though) so you knew for sure it was the same person. (I am not being sarcastic here, I trust you as both you and a firsthand source). Edited September 17, 2015 by Calm
sethpayne Posted September 17, 2015 Posted September 17, 2015 Could you tell why they were being used over? Was it intentional or accidental?I take it they were unusual enough names and that you noticed dates (since some families repeat names, I have a number of names that are multiples in my genealogy for men and women, in the case of women the mother's maiden name isn't known though in one case, husband and wife had same last name...not from the same village though) so you knew for sure it was the same person. (I am not being sarcastic here, I trust you as both you and a firsthand source). Honestly, I never thought to ask why and always assumed there was a good reason for it. There are so many names out there I simply don't see the need to repeat work.... but perhaps in some temples it is necessary? I have no idea. 1
Stargazer Posted September 18, 2015 Posted September 18, 2015 I've heard of recycled names in the past and temple names done over and over again. But with the influx of indexing that is being done by youth and adults everywhere it has helped provide names. Or is indexing just for a data base? Or there is more emphasis on doing our family history? All I know is when trying to find a name in my family back in the day, it was terribly difficult, and some of my family had multiple work done. Oh, yes. Duplication is now being reduced a lot, but some of my ancestors have been baptized, endowed and sealed multiple times, because some them had lots and lots of descendants who joined the Church. I was excited to discover that I had so many cousins!. Nothing wrong with that, by the way.
Storm Rider Posted September 18, 2015 Posted September 18, 2015 I have heard from multiple sources that this happens. It's a curious practice, especially if one believes in the literal efficacy of vicarious endowments and doesn't take them as more of a symbolic ritual. And you can prove or disprove how many times it happens by checking the records to detect how many multiple ordinances have been performed for individuals. It was certainly a problem when there were no computers, but by inspecting the records today you can determine for yourself if it is an issue. On today's system you can "reserve" names for which you will perform the work and no one else can do the ordinance or repeat it. It is a more effective system so that people don't waste their time. Anecdotally, any genealogist can tell you how long it takes to get work done for names you turn into the temple to do. If there was an absence of names it would happen much quicker. It is odd how these types of Mormon folk stories (both good and bad) keep coming around and are impossible to stop. Even when presented with methods to disprove something it just keeps rolling along. Just look at the records and judge - no need to repeat what you heard your aunt's best friend say in church when that individual obviously does not know what they are talking about. Big, big different between names for individuals that need temple ordinances done by proxy and any other name associated with the temple. 2
strappinglad Posted September 18, 2015 Posted September 18, 2015 I suspect that ' John Smith ' has been baptized and endowed many times. So has ' Maria Perez ' . Same name , different individuals. Then again there is the apocryphal Mormon folk tale about a time long before computers and careful record checks , when a person did work for two individuals who were often mentioned in their grandfathers diaries , Bessy and Endora . Much later , further research revealed that the two were family milk cows. " As you were " was quickly pronounced.
Tacenda Posted September 18, 2015 Posted September 18, 2015 And you can prove or disprove how many times it happens by checking the records to detect how many multiple ordinances have been performed for individuals. It was certainly a problem when there were no computers, but by inspecting the records today you can determine for yourself if it is an issue. On today's system you can "reserve" names for which you will perform the work and no one else can do the ordinance or repeat it. It is a more effective system so that people don't waste their time. Anecdotally, any genealogist can tell you how long it takes to get work done for names you turn into the temple to do. If there was an absence of names it would happen much quicker. It is odd how these types of Mormon folk stories (both good and bad) keep coming around and are impossible to stop. Even when presented with methods to disprove something it just keeps rolling along. Just look at the records and judge - no need to repeat what you heard your aunt's best friend say in church when that individual obviously does not know what they are talking about. Big, big different between names for individuals that need temple ordinances done by proxy and any other name associated with the temple. It was firsthand experience to see that my relatives had multiple work done. Not saying you were picking me out of the group, but someone else has. When I was an active temple goer, well somewhat, not as much as I should have. I would get slips of paper with the first or last name or just a year as the birthdate, very vague information. I'm sure this has occurred with others. I often wondered how this could work. The only thing I could come up with was the person I was doing the work for just shows up because they recognize it is them. But do see how names can be done multiple times. I think just like missions sometimes, the temple is for the goer.
Storm Rider Posted September 18, 2015 Posted September 18, 2015 It was firsthand experience to see that my relatives had multiple work done. Not saying you were picking me out of the group, but someone else has. When I was an active temple goer, well somewhat, not as much as I should have. I would get slips of paper with the first or last name or just a year as the birthdate, very vague information. I'm sure this has occurred with others. I often wondered how this could work. The only thing I could come up with was the person I was doing the work for just shows up because they recognize it is them. But do see how names can be done multiple times. I think just like missions sometimes, the temple is for the goer. Yes, Tacenda, I can see and know that names have been done multiple times. I have been a genealogist for decades and, just as you did, I found ancestors who had their work done multiple times. These individuals were all ones that had lived and died prior to computers. What it meant to me was there may have been some careless relatives who did not really check the records; more important, they were individuals who were more concerned about getting the work done for their ancestors. It is certain they could have spent their time more effectively doing the work for someone else, but their commitment to their ancestors remains strong and clear. I also realize that early genealogists had a really tough time finding data and it was not as easy as it is today. I still see genealogists who do not enter location data; it is a pet peeve of mine and it drives me crazy. I know I have personally had work done for ancestors where I did not have complete information - a birth year rather than a complete date, a missing death date, missing parents, etc. What was clear is that I had their children and any other genealogist could trace my work and review my resources supporting my work. My only point is that the errors of yesteryear are harder to repeat today. I would like to see someone offer clear evidence to support a time when the names of individuals needing temple work were consciously used repeatedly. I don't believe it happened consciously or knowingly. Accidents happen, but not a program where any temple just recycled names because there weren't new names for ancestors available. Does any one have any evidence to support this claim that has been made several times on this thread?
Garden Girl Posted September 18, 2015 Posted September 18, 2015 Almost always the multiple work being done was because the genealogist (family member) preparing the family history forms for submission did not check carefully to see if work had been done. Things have improved greatly with the advent of computer use, and checking has become far easier and quicker so as to be able to see the ordinances previously performed, thus limiting duplication. I was just looking at my folks' genealogy files from 20 years ago and they had file folders filled with copies of personally typed correspondence to a prof search agency they used to help locate ancestors. It took days or weeks to exchange information. Today the process is sooo much easier with the tech available. When my dad turned over his records to me after he lost his eyesight, I went to our Family History Center, and it took relatively little time to see the work that had been done, etc., and I was surprised to see that in his family there was work completed in 1949... well before he became a member. The process continues to improve and fewer incidences of duplicaiton are occuring when family members do proper checking, etc. GG 2
BlueDreams Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 So just an interesting note. The Provo temple also had a similar reminder because of an incident in our temple earlier this week as well (a woman was asking sister workers to ordain her to the priesthood). Apparently there is some organized group that is planning to disrupt a number of endowment sessions up until conference. There wasn't much info given beyond that though. So this is apparently not an isolated incident. But because the way temples run, it'll probably make very few waves. With luv,BD 1
Bobbieaware Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 So just an interesting note. The Provo temple also had a similar reminder because of an incident in our temple earlier this week as well (a woman was asking sister workers to ordain her to the priesthood). Apparently there is some organized group that is planning to disrupt a number of endowment sessions up until conference. There wasn't much info given beyond that though. So this is apparently not an isolated incident. But because the way temples run, it'll probably make very few waves. With luv,BDIn the immortal words of Saturday Night Live's Mr. Bill, OHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
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